CL300Pilot
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2005
- Posts
- 322
In their history, has Flex ever taken away a raise? Just curious. Cautiousbelly, maybe you can enlightened us here on this one? I personally have never heard of it happening.
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TWA 2 ASA FO
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2003
- Posts
- 471
CL300,
These people don't care what ANYONE else says, they are going to complain and be miserable during their entire stay here at FlexJet. DO what I do and try your best to ignore them. All they try to do is throw "fear grenades" at anyone who remotely either backs the company or does not trash everything it does.
Do I think FlexJet is perfect, NO. Has it gotten to be a better place to work since I have been here, YES. DG said in the meeting that rest and duty rules were the hot topic of this year. The next day was the 1st meeting of this new committee to resolve the issues like rolling rest and home reserve/duty/rest. I know because I was actually up there when the meeting was taking place (I was not in the meeting).
But I don't even know why I am wasting the keystrokes, several of you won't be happy no matter what their response is. I say to those people, QUIT and go to NetJets, you will be equally as unhappy there. There is no job that will make you happy, so please just quit you complaining. I wish the company had the money to pay you just to stay home, but I am sure you would find something to complain about that also.
TWA 2 ASA FO
avg FlexJet line pilot
These people don't care what ANYONE else says, they are going to complain and be miserable during their entire stay here at FlexJet. DO what I do and try your best to ignore them. All they try to do is throw "fear grenades" at anyone who remotely either backs the company or does not trash everything it does.
Do I think FlexJet is perfect, NO. Has it gotten to be a better place to work since I have been here, YES. DG said in the meeting that rest and duty rules were the hot topic of this year. The next day was the 1st meeting of this new committee to resolve the issues like rolling rest and home reserve/duty/rest. I know because I was actually up there when the meeting was taking place (I was not in the meeting).
But I don't even know why I am wasting the keystrokes, several of you won't be happy no matter what their response is. I say to those people, QUIT and go to NetJets, you will be equally as unhappy there. There is no job that will make you happy, so please just quit you complaining. I wish the company had the money to pay you just to stay home, but I am sure you would find something to complain about that also.
TWA 2 ASA FO
avg FlexJet line pilot
Inigo Montoya
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2007
- Posts
- 78
Hiya TWA. Something I want to point out here, which I think a lot of Flex folks overlook. You agree that you want changes at flex? or that flex needs changes? whatever sounds better... and yes, there is a new committee to look at duty/rest stuff (i didn't know they started yet, so great). But, do you know WHY that committee got started? Because of people on this board (and the BB) who put they neck out and push for changes. It may seem like we are just complaining, but if folks didn't get on the BB and "complain" then nothing will ever get change.d If everybody posts happy "thanks DG!!" messages, why would management ever change a thing? That committee is a direct results of the recent posts pilots have made about rest and duty violations/issues. fifty bucks and my left n...er...just fifty bucks, says that if those pilots did not post on the BB, and instead sent a crew feedback email, or nothing at all, then the committee would not have been put together.
I ask you this then, what have you done to help get some positive changes around here? I post on the BB (with my real name of course), I write to my Chiefs, I fill in asap reports, I email the crew feedback folks, and I talk to the CAB members. What have you done lately?
Ignore me if you want, but "complainers" like me are partially, if not directly, responsible for the positive changes you see at Flex. I'm a good pilot, professional on the clock, an asset to this company, and I am really am working hard for changes, and it frustrates me to no end when I see people label me, and others, as simple complainers. Which group produces more results around here: the "kool-aid" drinkers or the vocal "complainers." Assuming the complainers have a valid point, I'd put my money on them.
If you think flex needs some changes, then do something about instead of just being "average"
nothing personal by the way. just saying get involved, but at the very least dont get in the way.
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DirtyBeech
The Last Starfighter
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2004
- Posts
- 782
CL,
I've never heard of it, but I do know that they furloughed out of seniority the last time the economy went in the crapper. The point is that Flex's rules and the FOM are up to interpretation and revocation at any point without any pilot input whatsoever.
CL300Pilot
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2005
- Posts
- 322
Thank you DB. I do know about the out of seniority furloughs, but in talking with senior CL captains, they were none to unhappy to see those go for what it is worth. I also realize that the company can take away whenever they want, but the pay issue seems to be coming up more and wanted to know for personal reference. Thank you for answering my quesiton and thanks for your input as well TWA. Good to hear that the meetings have begun.
SilverSurfer
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2007
- Posts
- 305
Misplaced Gratatude
Dude you have a total misunderstanding of where you gratitude should be placed. Management did not announce this proposed, and I emphasize proposed, pay increase out of appreciation of your work or value to the company. Your pay increase came because of two very simple things.
First, the hard work that our NJ brothers have put in to establish a industry standard. With out the very important ground work they laid down, none of us would be looking at any significant improvements in our pay, benefits, and QOL at our companies.
Second, the work and risk that the men at FJ have put in to organize your group threw down the gauntlet and told management that we will not settle for your reactive scraps and will have a say in our employment at FJ. Management responded with this promised pay raise for no other reason then hopes of staving off a positive union vote. If you do end up getting a pay increase it will be because of your union organizers and the potential of a successful union organizing drive.
These are the men that you should have gratitude for. Without their work and risk you would have nothing.
On another note, if management's ploy with the pay is successful, the union vote fails or never happens, you will be left in the same powerless, impotent position you enjoy now. Management can change anything they want, anytime they want, including not delivering on this promised May pay raise. As some have said on this thread if you chose the money now over the union you may you may have a little more in your pocket. If you elect for union representation you may not get this raise and you will have a fight in front of you that may take years. But two or three years down the road will you be better off with this short term money now or will you be better off with a contract that will give you control over what you position at FJ will be in the future and industry standard money.
Don,t be short sighted, that's what management is counting on.
Dude you have a total misunderstanding of where you gratitude should be placed. Management did not announce this proposed, and I emphasize proposed, pay increase out of appreciation of your work or value to the company. Your pay increase came because of two very simple things.
First, the hard work that our NJ brothers have put in to establish a industry standard. With out the very important ground work they laid down, none of us would be looking at any significant improvements in our pay, benefits, and QOL at our companies.
Second, the work and risk that the men at FJ have put in to organize your group threw down the gauntlet and told management that we will not settle for your reactive scraps and will have a say in our employment at FJ. Management responded with this promised pay raise for no other reason then hopes of staving off a positive union vote. If you do end up getting a pay increase it will be because of your union organizers and the potential of a successful union organizing drive.
These are the men that you should have gratitude for. Without their work and risk you would have nothing.
On another note, if management's ploy with the pay is successful, the union vote fails or never happens, you will be left in the same powerless, impotent position you enjoy now. Management can change anything they want, anytime they want, including not delivering on this promised May pay raise. As some have said on this thread if you chose the money now over the union you may you may have a little more in your pocket. If you elect for union representation you may not get this raise and you will have a fight in front of you that may take years. But two or three years down the road will you be better off with this short term money now or will you be better off with a contract that will give you control over what you position at FJ will be in the future and industry standard money.
Don,t be short sighted, that's what management is counting on.
Iam3rd
God, Others, Self
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2004
- Posts
- 143
Amen TWA!! And like DG says. "We are not NJ. We never will be NJ".
If someone likes so much what the pilots at NJ are getting and what he is not getting, and feels like they need to be apart of a union, then go to NJ. Nobody is keeping you here.
And I also agree that it would not matter what flex did for us, the union guys on here would still be coming up with reasons why we need a union.
It is always talked about on here what the union can do for us. And granted there may be some good things that the union could do for us, but I promise you that is not the only thing they are thinking about. Has anyone on here talked about exactly how much money the union would make off of Flex pilots per year. Why don't we break it down.
Lets say under the new pay scale, when you average all the captains and FO's salaries, the average salary is say $90,000. Also lets say we have about 450 pilots. Thats about 40 million in salaries per year. The union would get 1.5% of that amount. That comes to $607,500.00 per year that we as a pilot group would have to give to the union. So the next quesiton you have to ask yourself is do we think $607,500.00 is worth what we would be getting from the union. I think that if Flight Options pilots asked themselves this question, it would be a scream of NO!!!
Just remember that the union is a money making business just like any other business. Granted, they may think that they can help you......and they may can. But thats not the only reason that the union wants into companys. They are there to make money just like everyone else. Regardless if they end up helping or not.
One other thing. Its not often that I respond on here. But I do quite often get on here to read what all is going on in the fractional world. And I have to admit that I have never seen, read, or heard of so much anger, cussing, name calling and disrespect come for union guys when the topics of union versus non union come up. Its like their opinion is the only one that matters and nobody else is allowed to have an opposing opinion. And if you do, just be ready to get a new one ripped by alot of these guys. Granted, there are a few of you unions guys on here that are very polite and respectful of others opinions. And I appreciate that. But a majority of the ones that I have seen on here have not been. Alot of them are to the point of being almost militant about it. And its really sad. So since they seem to be a good representation of what a union is about and the type of people that I will have to work with if we ever end up with a union. Out of fear of me becoming that type person, I would find another job.
But thats just my opinion.....
If someone likes so much what the pilots at NJ are getting and what he is not getting, and feels like they need to be apart of a union, then go to NJ. Nobody is keeping you here.
And I also agree that it would not matter what flex did for us, the union guys on here would still be coming up with reasons why we need a union.
It is always talked about on here what the union can do for us. And granted there may be some good things that the union could do for us, but I promise you that is not the only thing they are thinking about. Has anyone on here talked about exactly how much money the union would make off of Flex pilots per year. Why don't we break it down.
Lets say under the new pay scale, when you average all the captains and FO's salaries, the average salary is say $90,000. Also lets say we have about 450 pilots. Thats about 40 million in salaries per year. The union would get 1.5% of that amount. That comes to $607,500.00 per year that we as a pilot group would have to give to the union. So the next quesiton you have to ask yourself is do we think $607,500.00 is worth what we would be getting from the union. I think that if Flight Options pilots asked themselves this question, it would be a scream of NO!!!
Just remember that the union is a money making business just like any other business. Granted, they may think that they can help you......and they may can. But thats not the only reason that the union wants into companys. They are there to make money just like everyone else. Regardless if they end up helping or not.
One other thing. Its not often that I respond on here. But I do quite often get on here to read what all is going on in the fractional world. And I have to admit that I have never seen, read, or heard of so much anger, cussing, name calling and disrespect come for union guys when the topics of union versus non union come up. Its like their opinion is the only one that matters and nobody else is allowed to have an opposing opinion. And if you do, just be ready to get a new one ripped by alot of these guys. Granted, there are a few of you unions guys on here that are very polite and respectful of others opinions. And I appreciate that. But a majority of the ones that I have seen on here have not been. Alot of them are to the point of being almost militant about it. And its really sad. So since they seem to be a good representation of what a union is about and the type of people that I will have to work with if we ever end up with a union. Out of fear of me becoming that type person, I would find another job.
But thats just my opinion.....
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CL,
you knew i was gonna chime in.
Yes, Flexjet DID take away pay, 2001-2003 there was a pay freeze and that is the same thing my friend.
along with the pay freeze, people were fired out of senority, and sales bonuses to the pilots were removed.
Above is the same story i have been telling you for a year now, for some reason you dont wanna listen, and if they did it once, they CAN/WILL do it again if "needed" without a contract.
you knew i was gonna chime in.
Yes, Flexjet DID take away pay, 2001-2003 there was a pay freeze and that is the same thing my friend.
along with the pay freeze, people were fired out of senority, and sales bonuses to the pilots were removed.
Above is the same story i have been telling you for a year now, for some reason you dont wanna listen, and if they did it once, they CAN/WILL do it again if "needed" without a contract.
Iam3rd
God, Others, Self
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2004
- Posts
- 143
I am trying to figure out how it is that the pilots at airlines are union also, but yet almost all of them had stuff taken away from them. Pay, Pension, medical cost increases and the list goes on. Unions can not protect you from these things. I know that it does make it more difficult for the mgmt. to take away, but they can still do it.
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