So what's the story on this latest 400 flameout?

[pamed19]

Core lock sounds serious to this owner/passenger.Is the 400a safe to fly?

 

[Guitar rocker]

Of the couple planes that I have flown, not one of them require anti-ice on in the descent with ignitors and boost pumps on as well. These are band aid fixes for a current unknown problem on the 400XP. At FSI, they told us that anti-ice on in the descent is worthless. I guess the boost pumps and ignitors would be essential before your descent if your already planning on a dual engine flame out to begin with though.....

Raytheon had better figure this out soon.

 

[RNObased]

Core lock sounds serious to this owner/passenger.Is the 400a safe to fly?

Depends on your defination of "safe".

The ignitors on for decent is basically a poor man's auto re-lite. Anything is worth a shot at this stage.

I have money that if this plane was a Cessna it would be grounded already. However Raytheon has many friends in high places that love the missles they make.

 

[Guitar rocker]

Depends on your defination of "safe".

The ignitors on for decent is basically a poor man's auto re-lite. Anything is worth a shot at this stage.

I have money that if this plane was a Cessna it would be grounded already. However Raytheon has many friends in high places that love the missles they make.

Agreed. If the feds grounded it, Raytheon, and operators would be up in arms. Politics and $$$ seem to over ride safety in this case.

 

[beechjetpilot1]

Pamed19...as a Beechjet pilot...here are my 2 cents:

I would have to agree with you two.....however, our job is risk management. There is NO safe airplane, some are just safer than others and some are operated safer than others. I don't know why the beechjet is having these issues all of the sudden...it could be design, it could be operator error, it could be pilot error, it could be a mx procedure error...we just don't know and they are not telling us. Many aircraft have come up against issues over the years that wouldn't be considered un-safe aircraft:

747's Fuel pumps in the center tank ...TWA that blew up
737's Rudder problems
Airbus 300 Vertical Tail departed aircraft do to operator error and design
B-52 early models had tails that fell off in turbulence
......and many others

My point is that no aircraft or flight is safe...we try and mitigate those errors to provide the safest, most economical, comfortable and on-time flights we can. My only concern that I voiced earlier on this thread is the utter lack of communication from Raytheon, P&W and Flops to the pilots, owners and operators of the Beechjets. This is starting to cross the unethical line in my mind. If they don't know, say so. If they do know, let us know so it can be fixed or we can operate differently so not to have this happen again. Just tell us so we can make informed decisions. Am I afraid to fly the beechjet now? Absolutely not! I do however operate it differently to mitigate what I consider the problem to be.

Pamed19, I will not tell you that the Beechjet is "unsafe" because I don't have enough information to make that call yet. My suggestion is to tell you that you are an owner. As an owner, I would be on the phone with Raytheon, Flops, FAA, NTSB, and Pratt and Whitney to demand some answers. Ask the tough questions, listen to their answers and decide for yourself if the beechjet is unsafe. Like I said, it may not be the plane...it could be fuelers, mx, pilots, weather or aliens!

 

[NJAowner]

Pamed19 -- as an owner (and not a pilot) I emplore you to continue your quest for knowledge. Read this board (but don't believe all you read -- you shouldn't even in the New York Times or Wall Street Journal), andread trade publications like Business and Commercial Aviation (the best $35 a year I have spent since becoming an owner). You will learn alot.

I don not know the safetey of the Beechjet. But I do know that a well trained crew and a well maintained plane and a good program increase your odds tremedously. Almost problem I read about is a compounding of many stupid human errors. Not one, not 2, not 3, not 4 but like 5 -- plus a cheap operator. That is why the major frax are more expensive than charter brokers. Training, maintenance and de-icing fluid cost $$ and someone has to pay for it or not use it.

Fly safe.

P.S. -- since youhave not been scorched on this board I realized I should have been NJAOwneress. Since you name starts with "pam" you are treated much nicer.

 

[400pilot]

At FSI, they told us that anti-ice on in the descent is worthless.

This statement is not true. Turning engine anti-ice on reduces pressure in the compressor which then reduces the chance for a compressor stall. Then again, so does pulling back the power.....

 

[Guitar rocker]

This statement is not true. Turning engine anti-ice on reduces pressure in the compressor which then reduces the chance for a compressor stall. Then again, so does pulling back the power.....

I guess what I meant to say was that turning on the A/I is not a fix to the current issue concerning the 400XP.....that is how FSI put it.....for whatever thats worth.

 

[RossTwivel]

The barometric formula, sometimes called the exponential atmosphere, is a formula used to model how the pressure (or density) of the air changes with altitude. It is based on the simplifying (not very realistic) assumption that the temperature does not depend on altitude. However, this formula agrees reasonably well with the actual pressure and density variations above the earth's surface up to a height of about 450,000 ft (140 km).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/e/d/e/edeecbbd4ec5ba9a2d2691ec6bf7f57c.png or
http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/8/5/1/851575814d5db74077f80470ca551028.png where h is the scale height, ρ (rho) is density, P is pressure, P0 is pressure at ground level (mean sea level pressure is 1013.25 hPa), M = 0.029 kg mol-1 (the mass of 1 mole of air), R = 8.314 J K-1 mol-1 is the gas constant, T is temperature, g0 is the acceleration due to gravity (about 9.8 m s-2 depending on your location, see g) and z is the vertical height above the earth's surface.
Using the same principles, the above equation can be solved for altitude as a function of pressure. This formulation is known as the hypsometric equation.
As a rule of thumb, the pressure decreases by about 1% for every 80 metres increase in altitude.
An alternative rule of thumb, density decreases by half every 20,000 feet (6000 m) below the tropopause, and every 15,000 (4500 m) feet above the tropopause to the stratopause.

 

[beechjetpilot1]

Hey Ross.....Huh?

 

[RossTwivel]

What that says is "Thar ain't much arr up thar"

We could guess all day as to the cause of these flameouts and the fact they are recent occurancies, but consider this.

Maybe we are flying the airplanes higher than we used to. The price of fuel along with the 2,000 ft increments (RVSM) has caused us to fly higher and delay the descent a little longer requiring more power reduction for descent. Some engins have limitations on the amount of power reduction above a certain altitude. I like not below 85% above FL350.

Another point is the Core Lock was probably secondary to the engines quitting. Core lock is caused by pulling all the power off at a cold and high altitude.

So when you get a AFM revision adding a power reduction limitation then I can say "You see what I mean Verne" till then don't fly too high.

 

[cjdriver]

I knew it was the oil companies fault.

 

[Rubber Ducky]

wheres the BEEF???

I still haven't seen from a reliable source a confirmation that this latest event even occurred. Can anyone paste info from the ntsb, faa, or alien government who claims that they have juristiction on this so called event. What day did it occur? If we know the date, we can go to flight aware for a history of landings to see what tail numbers landed in ORF that day, if any.

 

[pamed19]

I still haven't seen from a reliable source a confirmation that this latest event even occurred. Can anyone paste info from the ntsb, faa, or alien government who claims that they have juristiction on this so called event. What day did it occur? If we know the date, we can go to flight aware for a history of landings to see what tail numbers landed in ORF that day, if any.

Read post 26 on this thread. Date was june 17th for the flame out.

 

[SabreFlyR]

I still haven't seen from a reliable source a confirmation that this latest event even occurred. Can anyone paste info from the ntsb, faa, or alien government who claims that they have juristiction on this so called event. What day did it occur? If we know the date, we can go to flight aware for a history of landings to see what tail numbers landed in ORF that day, if any.

I was told it was on the 14th in the ORF area. I have searched all the sources and cannot find info on it either. I am waiting for a call from a friend at Raytheon to see what he can find out.

 

[Jetz]

From the General:

We were flying from BWI-FXE this afternoon around 4:00PM and as we were over Virginia, a Beechjet (not FLOPS) called, "Mayday, mayday, dual engine flameout, declaring emergency!" They requested vectors to nearest airport and were given a descent to Norfolk. That was the last I heard....anyone know anything about this?

"Starcheckdriver" heard it live. Posted on 6/15 in "General" thread.

 

[*#$% Headwinds]

I had also heard from a friend who is a FLOPS pilot that igniters and boost pumps before descent became SOP after the second flame out. I am using that procedure for now.

The fact that FSI is making authoritative statements about what solutions won't help tells me that someone has a clue about it. I am also extremely frustrated that no one is talking. I'm going back to FSI RLC in late July for recurrent. I will post up with whatever they have to say.

 

[FN FAL]

The ignitors on for decent is basically a poor man's auto re-lite.

Poor people don't deserve auto re-light, what did they do to urn it?

 

[pamed19]

I had also heard from a friend who is a FLOPS pilot that igniters and boost pumps before descent became SOP after the second flame out. I am using that procedure for now.

The fact that FSI is making authoritative statements about what solutions won't help tells me that someone has a clue about it. I am also extremely frustrated that no one is talking. I'm going back to FSI RLC in late July for recurrent. I will post up with whatever they have to say.

A report would be helpful.I also had a FLOPS employee tell me about the descent procedure you outline after the 2nd Flame out. Raytheon will sell fuel heaters for the 400a/400xp beginning in August. I believe they will go to NETJETS first.

 

[greygoose]

A report would be helpful.I also had a FLOPS employee tell me about the descent procedure you outline after the 2nd Flame out. Raytheon will sell fuel heaters for the 400a/400xp beginning in August. I believe they will go to NETJETS first.

Pamed
No plane is safe, if you are as worried as you look on your posts sell your share and stop flying. I could walk out my front door trip and hit my head on a rock and die.
I should take a poll on here and ask if I should stay in my house. I will get a ton of dumbass remarks saying to become a mole and never leave.
On top of that the Concorde went from the best aviaition safety records to the worst. All in one day it took, now something was done about this. It wasnt because of the incident but because of the aging fleet. Flying is by far safer then driving, yet there is still millions of more people that drive every day then fly.

 

[pamed19]

Pamed
No plane is safe, if you are as worried as you look on your posts sell your share and stop flying. I could walk out my front door trip and hit my head on a rock and die.
I should take a poll on here and ask if I should stay in my house. I will get a ton of dumbass remarks saying to become a mole and never leave.
On top of that the Concorde went from the best aviaition safety records to the worst. All in one day it took, now something was done about this. It wasnt because of the incident but because of the aging fleet. Flying is by far safer then driving, yet there is still millions of more people that drive every day then fly.

Flying has become much safer with the advent of the turbine engine.It is a very, very dependable machine.The odds of a turbine engine failing are small. The odds of 2 turbine engines failing on the same aircraft at the same time are incredibly small.I am happy to fly in the Beechjet when the cause of the flame outs is found and fixed.With 5 duals in 2 years something is wrong with the aircraft.

 

[swtdaddyjones]

As an ex 400 driver, my advise is to reduce power on one engine before the other for the descent. I never had one complaint from the passengers when I did this (it didn’t yaw noticeably). I don’t think that anyone at Raytheon has a true idea why this aircraft is prone to misbehaving like this.

 

[AeroBoy]

Flying has become much safer with the advent of the turbine engine.It is a very, very dependable machine.The odds of a turbine engine failing are small. The odds of 2 turbine engines failing on the same aircraft at the same time are incredibly small.I am happy to fly in the Beechjet when the cause of the flame outs is found and fixed.With 5 duals in 2 years something is wrong with the aircraft.

Pamed19,

I'm aware of the July 2004, November 2005 and last month's dual flameouts in the Beechjet--when/where were the other two? Also, does anyone have an N-number for last month's Beechjet flameout (PM me if you don't want to respond publicly)? I still can't find anything about the latest incident in the FAA or NTSB accident/incident databases...

 

[pamed19]

Pamed19,

I'm aware of the July 2004, November 2005 and last month's dual flameouts in the Beechjet--when/where were the other two? Also, does anyone have an N-number for last month's Beechjet flameout (PM me if you don't want to respond publicly)? I still can't find anything about the latest incident in the FAA or NTSB accident/incident databases...

A 400a in Brazil was the first.Last summer a CitationII[same engines] in Alaska.It was reported.I have been told that the last incident has been wrapped into the ongoing investigation by the NTSB/FAA.I have no tail number for the last one. It was reported by a member of this forum who heard the mayday.The one in Brazil is anecdotal.

 

[AeroBoy]

Finally!! Here's a link to the track for the incident flight: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N440DS/history/20060614/1904Z/KOQU/KCHS

 

[pamed19]

Finally!! Here's a link to the track for the incident flight: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N440DS/history/20060614/1904Z/KOQU/KCHS

Great work

 

[CaptainSpaz]

I saw this mentioned a few times and wanted to clear it up: The Citation II does NOT have the exact same engine as the Beechjet. The CII has the -4 series JT15D engine, and the BJ has the -5. While basically the same, they have MANY major differences including fan, fuel control and exhaust.

In comparing apples and apples, I would not mention the CII anymore and just focus on the BJ issues that we are all concerned about.

I would not be surprised at all if a major action is taken by the FAA in response to what appears to be a real and growing problem. I just hope it gets solved completely before the fleet gets grounded pending further investigation.

 

[CaptainSpaz]

This is probably best for another thread, but bringing up the 747 and Airbus incidents you mentioned... very poor examples due to the circumstances surrounding those disasters. They have absolutely no relevance in this discussion whatsoever.

I would have to agree with you two.....however, our job is risk management. There is NO safe airplane, some are just safer than others and some are operated safer than others. I don't know why the beechjet is having these issues all of the sudden...it could be design, it could be operator error, it could be pilot error, it could be a mx procedure error...we just don't know and they are not telling us. Many aircraft have come up against issues over the years that wouldn't be considered un-safe aircraft:

747's Fuel pumps in the center tank ...TWA that blew up
737's Rudder problems
Airbus 300 Vertical Tail departed aircraft do to operator error and design
B-52 early models had tails that fell off in turbulence
......and many others

 

[CaptainSpaz]

Who the heck is this guy joining the board just to post in this thread, and then to post this ridiculous drivel?

What that says is "Thar ain't much arr up thar"

We could guess all day as to the cause of these flameouts and the fact they are recent occurancies, but consider this.

Maybe we are flying the airplanes higher than we used to. The price of fuel along with the 2,000 ft increments (RVSM) has caused us to fly higher and delay the descent a little longer requiring more power reduction for descent. Some engins have limitations on the amount of power reduction above a certain altitude. I like not below 85% above FL350.

Another point is the Core Lock was probably secondary to the engines quitting. Core lock is caused by pulling all the power off at a cold and high altitude.

So when you get a AFM revision adding a power reduction limitation then I can say "You see what I mean Verne" till then don't fly too high.

 

[pamed19]

I saw this mentioned a few times and wanted to clear it up: The Citation II does NOT have the exact same engine as the Beechjet. The CII has the -4 series JT15D engine, and the BJ has the -5. While basically the same, they have MANY major differences including fan, fuel control and exhaust.

In comparing apples and apples, I would not mention the CII anymore and just focus on the BJ issues that we are all concerned about.

I would not be surprised at all if a major action is taken by the FAA in response to what appears to be a real and growing problem. I just hope it gets solved completely before the fleet gets grounded pending further investigation.

Good point.Certainly the engine in the CII appears to have less trouble.Do you have any thoughts on the cause?