So what's the story on this latest 400 flameout?

[tk855]

Where do you get this info? I have been looking all over for confirmation.As you know from a previous post of mine I am a very reluctant owner in a share of a 400a. Although the FLOPS pilots are wonderful and I have complete confidence in them I am worried.I have this as the 5th flame out recently-4 Beechjets and 1 CII.

NJA sent this information out to their 400XP pilots in a confidential email the day after the incident happened. NJA received the information from Raytheon, I believe.

 

[pamed19]

NJA sent this information out to their 400XP pilots in a confidential email the day after the incident happened. NJA received the information from Raytheon, I believe.

Thanks

 

[guido411]

Where do you get this info? I have been looking all over for confirmation.As you know from a previous post of mine I am a very reluctant owner in a share of a 400a. Although the FLOPS pilots are wonderful and I have complete confidence in them I am worried.I have this as the 5th flame out recently-4 Beechjets and 1 CII.

Not saying it didn't happen, but don't believe it until you see it printed from an official source. A "confidential e-mail" does not count as such. . .

 

[RNObased]

Not saying it didn't happen, but don't believe it until you see it printed from an official source. A "confidential e-mail" does not count as such. . .

So you are saying the people who sent this email to the pilots at NJA are lying??? Hmm... Mangement at NJA may lie about a lot of things, but engine flameouts aren't one of them. The info came straight from the engine maker. It happened.....

 

[tk855]

Thank you RNO, I wasn't going to acknowledge such ignorance but you did a great job.

 

[starcheckdriver]

Just caught up to this thread tonight. I had posted a seperate thread in the General section a few days ago. I was on the same ATC frequency as the Beechjet that reported the problem. We were in a Lear 60 at FL400 in southern Virginia and talking to Center.

Center was very busy with air traffic and the Beechjet broke into the frequency with a quick "Mayday, Mayday" or "Break, Break" (can't remember the exact phrase used, but it was urgent). They then stated, "Beechjet N???? declaring emergency, dual engine flameout." Center asked for a confirmation of the emergnecy. Beechjet responded, "Affirmative, declaring an emergency, both engines have failed, unable to maintain altitude and request vectors to the nearest airport." Center responded with a vector towards Norfolk (ORF). They were then cleared to a lower altitude. Each transmission from the pilots' voices indicated a very high stress level. In fact, I have never quite heard that panic sound in any pilots voice. I imagine they were very busy navigating to ORF and trying to relight.

In any case, we got a frequency change and attempted to monitor this situation with the other radio. However, we quickly got out of range and last I heard, they were through FL240 with no relight yet, still getting vectored to ORF. Through hearsay, I heard they got one relit and that they landed safely. Lack of news reports probably confirms that.

Also hearsay....I understood the problem to be a poor mixture of prist in the fuel. Who knows? Well, that is my story and I'm sticking to it!

 

[WrknStff]

Gee, is it any wonder Raytheon is now coming out with a oil to fuel heat exchange for the 400? With all the "oopsies" with refuelers forgetting prist I've seen, I'm really glad I'm in a plane that comes standard with one now.

 

[Guitar rocker]

Gee, is it any wonder Raytheon is now coming out with a oil to fuel heat exchange for the 400? With all the "oopsies" with refuelers forgetting prist I've seen, I'm really glad I'm in a plane that comes standard with one now.

Actually, went throught FSI recurrent on the 400XP several months ago and they were saying that the problem is starting between the wing and engine and that a fuel/oil heater exchanger isnt going to be the fix. That is what ICT FSI is telling everyone.

 

[pamed19]

Actually, went throught FSI recurrent on the 400XP several months ago and they were saying that the problem is starting between the wing and engine and that a fuel/oil heater exchanger isnt going to be the fix. That is what ICT FSI is telling everyone.

What is a FSI recurrent?The only background I have in this area is "passenger".Also ICT.I will say that this board is teaching me many things about aircraft that I had no idea existed!

 

[Guitar Guy]

What is a FSI recurrent?The only background I have in this area is "passenger".Also ICT.I will say that this board is teaching me many things about aircraft that I had no idea existed!

"FSI recurrent" is recurrent flight training that is, in this case, conducted by FSI - Flight Safety International. FSI is one of the large pilot training providers. Recurrent training is required by the FAA of captains every 6 months and many of the fractionals put their first officers through the same or similar training on a 6-to-12 month rotation. Recurrent training includes ground school to review systems, performance, etc. along with simulator training emphasizing emergency situations. This training culminates in an oral exam and a checkride in the simulator.

 

[tk855]

What is a FSI recurrent?The only background I have in this area is "passenger".Also ICT.I will say that this board is teaching me many things about aircraft that I had no idea existed!

FSI recurrent = Flight Safety International recurrent flight training

ICT = KICT = the airport identifier for Wichita, Kansas.

Flight Safety has a building located right next to Beech Field in Wichita where pilots go for classroom/simulator training for Raytheon products, including the 400. This FSI location has a very close relationship with Raytheon and seems to be privvy to most information that Raytheon has regarding problems/quirks with the Beechjet.

 

[pamed19]

"FSI recurrent" is recurrent flight training that is, in this case, conducted by FSI - Flight Safety International. FSI is one of the large pilot training providers. Recurrent training is required by the FAA of captains every 6 months and many of the fractionals put their first officers through the same or similar training on a 6-to-12 month rotation. Recurrent training includes ground school to review systems, performance, etc. along with simulator training emphasizing emergency situations. This training culminates in an oral exam and a checkride in the simulator.

Thanks

 

[ozpilot]

.....

 

[dime line]

Pamed19.....You need to talk to the guy that's has been flying the beechjet for 5-7 yrs, yes the same people that fly you, and that have been flying you for as long as you have owned your share. We will tell you everything you want to know about the company, and the plane. PM me if you have any questions. Just so you know I have flown the BJ glider plane, post being a glider!

 

[pamed19]

I do talk to them and others at Flops.Great people.Very helpful.What bothers me is not knowing what is causing this problem.It keeps happening and no one has an answer.These dead stick landings cannot be sucessful forever,no matter how good you guys are.

 

[gunfyter]

NJA sent this information out to their 400XP pilots in a confidential email the day after the incident happened. NJA received the information from Raytheon, I believe.

Not "confidential" any more...

 

[glasspilot]

I do talk to them and others at Flops.Great people.Very helpful.What bothers me is not knowing what is causing this problem.It keeps happening and no one has an answer.These dead stick landings cannot be successful forever,no matter how good you guys are.

The good news is that they haven't yet seemed to need to do a "dead stick landing". It looks like each time they have gotten one or both engines to relight. This also would seem to lend itself to the PRIST theory. PRIST helps keep Jet fuel from freezing. If the PRIST to fuel mixture was incorrect the fuel might freeze at high altitudes and cause an engine failure. Since both engines draw from the same fuel you can imagine that if one fails they both will fail. Now as the airplane descends to warmer air the fuel thaws and the engines relight.

I'm not saying this is what happened but it seems plausible.

 

[Hawk Driver]

The company that makes PRIST would prefer you to use the term "Anti-icing Addititive." I worked with a media company on this issue awhile back and they were TOLD to stop using the term PRIST. PRIST is like saying, "hand me a Kleenex or make me a Xerox copy of the this..." There are several manufacturer's that make the addititive.

"Think OPSEC"

HD

 

[RNObased]

The good news is that they haven't yet seemed to need to do a "dead stick landing". It looks like each time they have gotten one or both engines to relight. This also would seem to lend itself to the PRIST theory. PRIST helps keep Jet fuel from freezing. If the PRIST to fuel mixture was incorrect the fuel might freeze at high altitudes and cause an engine failure. Since both engines draw from the same fuel you can imagine that if one fails they both will fail. Now as the airplane descends to warmer air the fuel thaws and the engines relight.

I'm not saying this is what happened but it seems plausible.

Check your facts, the guys into JAX didn't get the engines re-lit if I remember right.

If it is Prist deal it would seem to be an easy fix, but it keeps happening.

Pamed19 is correct, one of these times, someone is going to crap out on one of these flameouts it is only a matter of time.

 

[tk855]

Not "confidential" any more...

Sure it is, none of the information has been divulged, just acknowledgment that it was sent.