So what's the story on this latest 400 flameout?

[Jetz]

From the General:

We were flying from BWI-FXE this afternoon around 4:00PM and as we were over Virginia, a Beechjet (not FLOPS) called, "Mayday, mayday, dual engine flameout, declaring emergency!" They requested vectors to nearest airport and were given a descent to Norfolk. That was the last I heard....anyone know anything about this?

"Starcheckdriver" heard it live. Posted on 6/15 in "General" thread.

 

[*#$% Headwinds]

I had also heard from a friend who is a FLOPS pilot that igniters and boost pumps before descent became SOP after the second flame out. I am using that procedure for now.

The fact that FSI is making authoritative statements about what solutions won't help tells me that someone has a clue about it. I am also extremely frustrated that no one is talking. I'm going back to FSI RLC in late July for recurrent. I will post up with whatever they have to say.

 

[FN FAL]

The ignitors on for decent is basically a poor man's auto re-lite.

Poor people don't deserve auto re-light, what did they do to urn it?

 

[pamed19]

I had also heard from a friend who is a FLOPS pilot that igniters and boost pumps before descent became SOP after the second flame out. I am using that procedure for now.

The fact that FSI is making authoritative statements about what solutions won't help tells me that someone has a clue about it. I am also extremely frustrated that no one is talking. I'm going back to FSI RLC in late July for recurrent. I will post up with whatever they have to say.

A report would be helpful.I also had a FLOPS employee tell me about the descent procedure you outline after the 2nd Flame out. Raytheon will sell fuel heaters for the 400a/400xp beginning in August. I believe they will go to NETJETS first.

 

[greygoose]

A report would be helpful.I also had a FLOPS employee tell me about the descent procedure you outline after the 2nd Flame out. Raytheon will sell fuel heaters for the 400a/400xp beginning in August. I believe they will go to NETJETS first.

Pamed
No plane is safe, if you are as worried as you look on your posts sell your share and stop flying. I could walk out my front door trip and hit my head on a rock and die.
I should take a poll on here and ask if I should stay in my house. I will get a ton of dumbass remarks saying to become a mole and never leave.
On top of that the Concorde went from the best aviaition safety records to the worst. All in one day it took, now something was done about this. It wasnt because of the incident but because of the aging fleet. Flying is by far safer then driving, yet there is still millions of more people that drive every day then fly.

 

[pamed19]

Pamed
No plane is safe, if you are as worried as you look on your posts sell your share and stop flying. I could walk out my front door trip and hit my head on a rock and die.
I should take a poll on here and ask if I should stay in my house. I will get a ton of dumbass remarks saying to become a mole and never leave.
On top of that the Concorde went from the best aviaition safety records to the worst. All in one day it took, now something was done about this. It wasnt because of the incident but because of the aging fleet. Flying is by far safer then driving, yet there is still millions of more people that drive every day then fly.

Flying has become much safer with the advent of the turbine engine.It is a very, very dependable machine.The odds of a turbine engine failing are small. The odds of 2 turbine engines failing on the same aircraft at the same time are incredibly small.I am happy to fly in the Beechjet when the cause of the flame outs is found and fixed.With 5 duals in 2 years something is wrong with the aircraft.

 

[swtdaddyjones]

As an ex 400 driver, my advise is to reduce power on one engine before the other for the descent. I never had one complaint from the passengers when I did this (it didn’t yaw noticeably). I don’t think that anyone at Raytheon has a true idea why this aircraft is prone to misbehaving like this.

 

[AeroBoy]

Flying has become much safer with the advent of the turbine engine.It is a very, very dependable machine.The odds of a turbine engine failing are small. The odds of 2 turbine engines failing on the same aircraft at the same time are incredibly small.I am happy to fly in the Beechjet when the cause of the flame outs is found and fixed.With 5 duals in 2 years something is wrong with the aircraft.

Pamed19,

I'm aware of the July 2004, November 2005 and last month's dual flameouts in the Beechjet--when/where were the other two? Also, does anyone have an N-number for last month's Beechjet flameout (PM me if you don't want to respond publicly)? I still can't find anything about the latest incident in the FAA or NTSB accident/incident databases...

 

[pamed19]

Pamed19,

I'm aware of the July 2004, November 2005 and last month's dual flameouts in the Beechjet--when/where were the other two? Also, does anyone have an N-number for last month's Beechjet flameout (PM me if you don't want to respond publicly)? I still can't find anything about the latest incident in the FAA or NTSB accident/incident databases...

A 400a in Brazil was the first.Last summer a CitationII[same engines] in Alaska.It was reported.I have been told that the last incident has been wrapped into the ongoing investigation by the NTSB/FAA.I have no tail number for the last one. It was reported by a member of this forum who heard the mayday.The one in Brazil is anecdotal.

 

[AeroBoy]

Finally!! Here's a link to the track for the incident flight: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N440DS/history/20060614/1904Z/KOQU/KCHS

 

[pamed19]

Finally!! Here's a link to the track for the incident flight: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N440DS/history/20060614/1904Z/KOQU/KCHS

Great work

 

[CaptainSpaz]

I saw this mentioned a few times and wanted to clear it up: The Citation II does NOT have the exact same engine as the Beechjet. The CII has the -4 series JT15D engine, and the BJ has the -5. While basically the same, they have MANY major differences including fan, fuel control and exhaust.

In comparing apples and apples, I would not mention the CII anymore and just focus on the BJ issues that we are all concerned about.

I would not be surprised at all if a major action is taken by the FAA in response to what appears to be a real and growing problem. I just hope it gets solved completely before the fleet gets grounded pending further investigation.

 

[CaptainSpaz]

This is probably best for another thread, but bringing up the 747 and Airbus incidents you mentioned... very poor examples due to the circumstances surrounding those disasters. They have absolutely no relevance in this discussion whatsoever.

I would have to agree with you two.....however, our job is risk management. There is NO safe airplane, some are just safer than others and some are operated safer than others. I don't know why the beechjet is having these issues all of the sudden...it could be design, it could be operator error, it could be pilot error, it could be a mx procedure error...we just don't know and they are not telling us. Many aircraft have come up against issues over the years that wouldn't be considered un-safe aircraft:

747's Fuel pumps in the center tank ...TWA that blew up
737's Rudder problems
Airbus 300 Vertical Tail departed aircraft do to operator error and design
B-52 early models had tails that fell off in turbulence
......and many others

 

[CaptainSpaz]

Who the heck is this guy joining the board just to post in this thread, and then to post this ridiculous drivel?

What that says is "Thar ain't much arr up thar"

We could guess all day as to the cause of these flameouts and the fact they are recent occurancies, but consider this.

Maybe we are flying the airplanes higher than we used to. The price of fuel along with the 2,000 ft increments (RVSM) has caused us to fly higher and delay the descent a little longer requiring more power reduction for descent. Some engins have limitations on the amount of power reduction above a certain altitude. I like not below 85% above FL350.

Another point is the Core Lock was probably secondary to the engines quitting. Core lock is caused by pulling all the power off at a cold and high altitude.

So when you get a AFM revision adding a power reduction limitation then I can say "You see what I mean Verne" till then don't fly too high.

 

[pamed19]

I saw this mentioned a few times and wanted to clear it up: The Citation II does NOT have the exact same engine as the Beechjet. The CII has the -4 series JT15D engine, and the BJ has the -5. While basically the same, they have MANY major differences including fan, fuel control and exhaust.

In comparing apples and apples, I would not mention the CII anymore and just focus on the BJ issues that we are all concerned about.

I would not be surprised at all if a major action is taken by the FAA in response to what appears to be a real and growing problem. I just hope it gets solved completely before the fleet gets grounded pending further investigation.

Good point.Certainly the engine in the CII appears to have less trouble.Do you have any thoughts on the cause?