So much for the huge growth rumor at SW

[Meiguy]

So you don't have any 767 CA reserves making 182/hr now? Most people consider a 767 a widebody. Maybe it's not listed that way in the DL contract, but his point is well taken...and still correct.

I'm glad it upped 6/hr soon though, still too low.

RF

Your right, there are. 70% of that category is 757's. I felt his statement was a little misleading and not the entire picture. The widebody category I was referring to is the 767-400 and A330. Both of those are purely international which also receives a $6 CA and $4 Fo override as well which wasn't included in what I had said either. Either way most here feel it's below what it should be and we will be looking for improvements in the next contract.

 

[SELFloadingCRGO]

Yes, that could be true for awhile about the pay, but if they accept this turd of an agreement, they will still be FOs while I upgrade to widebody Captain within 10 years due to our huge retirement numbers. SWA will have a paltry 150 people leaving a year, which means stagnation. The DL pilots also get a new contract within the next couple years, and that coupled with retirements means you will be miserable. I hope those AT MEC guys reject your poor offer and go for more, as they should if they don't like it.OYS

Since I've asked this before and for whatever reason no one answered I'm gonna ask again.

What is the difference between SWA guys asking for more compared to AT guys asking for more?



SLC

 

[On Your Six]

The Reality

-A DAL widebody Captain on reserve will make less than a SWA/Airtran First Officer.

-They make less than a current AirTran CA flying a 717.

-They will make far less than a Junior SWA/Airtran CA flying a 717 with 115 seats.

-You will have the advantage of sitting 24 hour reserve in a crash pad in the slums of JFK.


DAL 767 CA max rate $182.00 @ 70 hour Reserve guarantee = $152,000 per
year.

And none of that will ever change? Really? Contracts always stay the same? Dicko, even you are switching to the dark side? It's amazing how fast you switched, when even you haven't seen what the Corndogs will do to you. Regardless, I do want to see your opinion when new contracts appear at the big 3, and then see the flood of people leave your stagnate airline for better opportunities. They'll be out there.



OYS

 

[dicko]

You know a DAL widebody CA makes $205 now and will make $213 at the beginning of the year. Not saying thats great pay for a widebody but your facts are wrong. So if you can hold widebody CA reserve you should be able to hold Narrowbody 767 CA as a lineholder which will be at $189 come the new year. Pretty sure thats more that $163 at Airtran CA and Southwest FO pay!!

What are you smoking. A 767 narrowbody ...... ?

Are you saying you'll be able to hold a line on the 330/767-400 in 10 years. Or are you quoting the 787 rates ?

Post the current 12 year CA rates at DAL for 75/76, 330/76-400 please.

 

[On Your Six]

Since I've asked this before and for whatever reason no one answered I'm gonna ask again.

What is the difference between SWA guys asking for more compared to AT guys asking for more?



SLC

You didn't facilitate this merger. The DL guys didn't facilitate the NWA merger. The guys I talk with here who experienced it said the DL guys didn't gain nearly as much pay wise per hour as the North pilots, but everyone did get at least a small raise (5%) on the South side, and everyone got stock. Did you get any stock or a small raise? Why didn't you ask for it? Did GK promise you'd get a better deal on seniority? That obviously could backfire if it goes to arbitration. What you will get eventually is a stronger company, but you should have asked for stock and a small raise.



OYS

 

[On Your Six]

What are you smoking. A 767 narrowbody ...... ?

Are you saying you'll be able to hold a line on the 330/767-400 in 10 years. Or are you quoting the 787 rates ?

Post the current 12 year CA rates at DAL for 75/76, 330/76-400 please.

Contract is almost up, but you prefer to think current wages will always stick around. Are you still on Airtran wages right now? Things do change, and when they do, then make broad comparisons. You are still an Airtran guy too, so don't believe your own current hype. You always will be a tranny in their eyes.



OYS

 

[SELFloadingCRGO]

You didn't facilitate this merger. The DL guys didn't facilitate the NWA merger. The guys I talk with here who experienced it said the DL guys didn't gain nearly as much pay wise per hour as the North pilots, but everyone did get at least a small raise (5%) on the South side, and everyone got stock. Did you get any stock or a small raise? Why didn't you ask for it? Did GK promise you'd get a better deal on seniority? That obviously could backfire if it goes to arbitration. What you will get eventually is a stronger company, but you should have asked for stock and a small raise.OYS

And in what way has AT facilitated this merger?

I don't know all the details of the Delta/NW merger but if the NW pilots were making less money of course the Delta guys didn't get as much when the NW guys were brought to their pay scale. Sounds similiar doesn't it?There have been no details released on any compensation on the SWA side yet. Did we ask for it, maybe we did maybe we didn't. I will not speculate on that until all the details have been released.


SLC

 

[saabcaptain]

If Gary was thinking furloughs, don't you think he would just deal the 717's and not take on a bunch of new employees?

--------------

 

[waveflyer]

And none of that will ever change? Really?
OYS

At ALPA they definitely change. Lots of swings. Ours has stayed pretty well in line with inflation. It just looks like a lot bc no other carrier, or all tue middle class, has been able to keep up.

So once again...."you're just mad cause we tell it like it is, and you tell it how it might be."
I know frank white might not be your style, but you earn the line almost every post.

 

[Meiguy]

What are you smoking. A 767 narrowbody ...... ? I was just trying to separate out the 75/76 category and the 330/767-400. A 767 is most definitely a widebody but the rate that was quoted is a mostly 757 category (70%).

Are you saying you'll be able to hold a line on the 330/767-400 in 10 years. Or are you quoting the 787 rates ? No you wouldn't. I was referencing OYS's statement saying he might in ten years be able to hold a 767-400/330 CA slot. Which if you can hold that you could probably hold a line on the 75/76 category. I don't know where he sits on the list.

Post the current 12 year CA rates at DAL for 75/76, 330/76-400 please.
Current rate 75/76 12 year CA is $182 and 330/76-400 is $205.

The 777 and 747 are at $217. Again I'm not saying these are great rates for the planes but rather trying to put the whole picture together.

 

[scoreboardII]

When you use those rates you need to normalize the other benefits like defined pension, 401k, etc

Besides 9.3% 401k match to federal limits, a SWA rate is all you get

 

[jonjuan]

At ALPA they definitely change. Lots of swings. Ours has stayed pretty well in line with inflation. It just looks like a lot bc no other carrier, or all tue middle class, has been able to keep up.

So once again...."you're just mad cause we tell it like it is, and you tell it how it might be."
I know frank white might not be your style, but you earn the line almost every post.

Oh sweetie, are you really looking for sympathy? You like to keep up with your family, but they really are trying to better their lives.

Understand your career failed multiple times and now you feel you have entered the red zone. Mad-we get, but john wilson will not make you feel breaking bad.

 

[Skybus]

Six, Never said it would be dropped. YOu are right this WILL happen. Commentary is how the end result could be for Trannies. Just sayin..

 

[Skybus]

]He wants it rejected in hopes of keeping SWA out of DAL's backyard. He's only concerned with himself, and not the AirTran pilot group. Don't be fooled by him.

[/COLOR]

Huh? wrong again Sherlock. SWA here.

 

[maxblast72]

Contract is almost up, but you prefer to think current wages will always stick around.

Delta Contract almost up but it is going to be a fight to get more money.

According to Delta 10-Q filed last week, Delta had $3.8 billion cash and short term investments and over $13 billion in long term debt (over 3 times as much debt as cash). Delta's operating profit for the first 6 months of 2011 ($389 million) wasn't even enough to pay the interest bill for the first 6 months of 2011 (a below the operating line expense of $454 million). Those numbers don't point to a great contract coming anytime soon.

For comparison, SWA made a $321 million operating profit for the first 6 months of 2011 and paid only $94 million in interests payments. SWA is the only airline out of the big 5 that has more cash and short term investment ($4.4 billion) than long term debt ($3.2 billion).

Hard to argue with the arithmetic but I am sure someone will.

 

[On Your Six]

Delta Contract almost up but it is going to be a fight to get more money.

According to Delta 10-Q filed last week, Delta had $3.8 billion cash and short term investments and over $13 billion in long term debt (over 3 times as much debt as cash). Delta's operating profit for the first 6 months of 2011 ($389 million) wasn't even enough to pay the interest bill for the first 6 months of 2011 (a below the operating line expense of $454 million). Those numbers don't point to a great contract coming anytime soon.

For comparison, SWA made a $321 million operating profit for the first 6 months of 2011 and paid only $94 million in interests payments. SWA is the only airline out of the big 5 that has more cash and short term investment ($4.4 billion) than long term debt ($3.2)

Hard to argue with the arithmetic but I am sure someone will.

Great speculation Neal Cavuto. You really don't know, just guessing. DL actually paid down $2 billion in debt last year, and is on track to bring it down to $10 billion within the next year or so, which has already brought down the yearly interest payments. DL made $950 million in bag fees alone last year, whereas SWA made zero. And, SWA pays more for gas now than the legacies (stated by GK in Q2 numbers brief), and will have to give huge raises to all AT employees shortly, which may take away the LCC moniker it has always enjoyed. Son, you need to worry about your own deal and this SLI fiasco you have been dealt. Another thread had an article too about SWA and 717s, and it didn't sound as rosy as previous posts. Good luck Kramer. Godspeed!




OYS

 

[scoreboardII]

Chief executive officer Gary Kelly said yesterday that "we don't see a reason to keep the 717s longer than we have to, or find a unique replacement for the 717 that is anything other than the 737".


http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/08/05/360443/southwest-appears-less-bullish-on-717.html

 

[Lear70]

Chief executive officer Gary Kelly said yesterday that "we don't see a reason to keep the 717s longer than we have to, or find a unique replacement for the 717 that is anything other than the 737".


http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/08/05/360443/southwest-appears-less-bullish-on-717.html

Bad timing on all those disclosures. Has all the pilots thinking much harder about being at the bottom of the list...

 

[embraerdriver]

Thats the icing on the cake for me.........

 

[redflyer65]

Aren't there enough combined (SW and AAI) orders to easily replace the 717 on a scheduled basis?

RF

 

[Fubijaakr]

Bad timing on all those disclosures. Has all the pilots thinking much harder about being at the bottom of the list...

Exactly. However, it could be planned for a different reason. He wants this to go to arbitration too.

That way the SWA f/os can be upset at the arbitrator and not the company.

 

[waveflyer]

Heard it said really well today- if you guys want to treat GK with all the suspicion of just any standard airline exec, at some point he might just cut his losses and treat you like any old airline employee.

What's he on record as saying- he wants us to be proud of how we handled this acquisition and how we treated each other during it.

He can't tell us everything- but I'm learning he says what he means.

Besides- how does voting no help out the 717 situation.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Aren't there enough combined (SW and AAI) orders to easily replace the 717 on a scheduled basis?

RF

Probably, but it all depends on the placement on the Boeing line. Personally, I think the AAI order schedule was one of the big selling points for the merger.

 

[Lear70]

Aren't there enough combined (SW and AAI) orders to easily replace the 717 on a scheduled basis?

RF

Yes, but the language in SL9 doesn't require integration of the 717 fleet. Complete Operational Integration can be delayed indefinitely upon agreement between SWAPA and SWA.

If COI doesn't happen before the 717's are integrated, there's nothing that says the pilots on them get to come over to new 737's as they are replaced.

Even if they did, are there enough scheduled deliveries to cover both the scheduled 737-300 AND 717 retirements combined simultaneously? I don't know the answer to that one, but if the first issue above is covered satisfactorily in the 4-party agreement, then this needs to be answered before the 717 folks can relax.

Lots of moving parts. Not that any of us THINK SWA plans on furloughing anyone, and in arbitration no one knows how any protections would play out, except overall better seniority as a buffer, but better to make sure it's a covered contingency.

 

[General Lee]

AAI relative seniority was worth $ZZZ.ZZ

SWAPA relative seniority is worth 1.A X $ZZZ.ZZ

Where "A" equals the difference in contract value.

For an FO the difference was probably about 9 and a CA about 5.

Seniority at AAI was worth less and that is why you are giving up "seniority".

Can't have it all ladies.

Arbitrators don't seem to care too much about payrates or dollar values. The Colgan pilots were paid among the worst in all the regionals, yet they were placed evenly through the PNCL and Mesaba combined list. The DL/NWA merger had a joint contract done FIRST, with everyone on the same type planes getting equal pay, before the SLI was decided by the 3 arbitrators. Hmmmm. I don't think your higher pay and benefits would matter too much to the arbitrators.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Fubijaakr]

What's he on record as saying- he wants us to be proud of how we handled this acquisition and how we treated each other during it. .

Apparently he doesn't read FI.com.

 

[General Lee]

Heard it said really well today- if you guys want to treat GK with all the suspicion of just any standard airline exec, at some point he might just cut his losses and treat you like any old airline employee.

What's he on record as saying- he wants us to be proud of how we handled this acquisition and how we treated each other during it.

He can't tell us everything- but I'm learning he says what he means.

Besides- how does voting no help out the 717 situation.

IF the Airtran MEC votes NO, then they can get some better language protecting everyone, including any 717 pilots. Why wouldn't anyone want that? You're all family now, live it!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[redflyer65]

IF the Airtran MEC votes NO, then they can get some better language protecting everyone, including any 717 pilots.

Bye Bye---General Lee

Exactly how would that play out General? Gary holds the key to better language, not SWAPA, not ALPA, and especially not the arbitor.

RF

 

[GuppyWN]

General, er OYS, will not be happy until every WN pilot is stapled.

Gup

 

[On Your Six]

Exactly how would that play out General? Gary holds the key to better language, not SWAPA, not ALPA, and especially not the arbitor.

RF

Does GK want another USAir? I don't think the investment community does.


OYS