Skywest TA??? Pay??

[General Lee]

I called a friend of mine in SLC who flies for Skywest and he said they were going to vote on a TA that would allow them to maybe buy some 70 seaters and 90 seaters (he said probably CRJ models--CR7 and CR9) and fly them at 50 seat rates for atleast 18 months---until they would "review" the situation. He also said there was a provision in there for possibly getting planes with 100-159 seats EVENTUALLY. Sounds like a big carrot to me. This industry and the pay is going down the tubes. Will it pass? Probably. Why? All of the FO's will vote YES because they want growth and more domiciles to choose from. The junior Captains will vote YES because they want to get a line and have more choices in domiciles etc. Only the senior Captains will vote NO because they have invested more time in Skywest and want the bigger bucks. My friend said this was what they "had to do" to fight for potential contracts and fight off Mesa and Chitaqua.
Just as our rates at Delta might go down a tad, so will the regional airline industry's.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Mexicankingair]

I think the plan now would just be to convert existing orders for CRJ 200's to the bigger ones, so that really wouldn't mean any more growth upgrades etc... than are already planned.

There is also a scale for 100 seat plus rates, but there is absolutely no guarantee that any would ever show up.

I think the carrot is simply not taking a pay cut and having the chance to wait 18 months and renegotiate when times (hopefully) are better.

 

[General Lee]

Mexicankingair,

I know these times are bad and a lot of regional guys are taking pay cuts (even though some of the Comair guys don't think they need to because they are "saving" Delta---yeah right). The problem here is that the Skywest pilots could open up a whole can of worms. They will fly up to 99 seat aircraft for 50 seat wages. That is like a Delta MD-88 Capt flying a 777 for the same wages. Double the capacity at the same wage. They didn't even try to give them a $1 an hour raise----nope. And then they will "review" it in 18 months-----what does that mean? Will times be better then? The management will try to show that it is not---saying Mesa and Chittauqua have grown huge and the only way to fight them is to pay less wages for larger aircraft. I believe this plan will succeed because the junior people want expansion and growth, and this is the only way right now---atleast in management's eyes.......If passed, this will be the new standard in the regionals----all of the other ones will point out that they have to do the same because Skywest is doing it, and they have to stay competitive. It's a rule in the management play book. The guys at Delta management have mastered it.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[embdrvr]

Question for General Lee

General Lee,
Can SkyWest or any other DCI carrier operate anything larger than 70 seats without the blessing of DALPA? Seems like you said something about that a month or two ago.

 

[Mexicankingair]

General Lee,

I agree, it sets a BAD precedent to have 50-99 pay scales in one group. I would have prefered to see at least two seperate scales in that range even if the pay were the same.

 

[Jeepman]

General Lee,


Yes this TA will probably pass, but think about it. SkyWest IS NOT setting the new low standard. We are ensuring our survival with the Chataqua's & Mesas of today. Besides it's a TA for 18 months so even if we were to order 70's the day after the TA passes it would take about a year to get them so then for six months we fly them at the same rate, get sick of it & if management pulls the BS about "Oh we need to be competetive against other lower cost carrier's all of us junior FO's and Captainsa will say BS and start a slow down" I think that would get their attention

 

[FlyingSig]

Pardon my ignorance... but if Skywest is non-union, why is there a "TA" to vote on? Can't management just impose new payscales on the pilots?

 

[Skank]

Your ingnorance is excused. Just being non-union doen't mean you don't have a contract. Guess what, our company (non-union) doesn't use the line "fly it and grieve it." They just honor the contract. Now isn't that refreshing?

 

[bladeusa]

the race to the bottom is on... sad

 

[Heavy Set]

Lower Pay Hurts Everyone!

The regional airline industry appears to be going down the tubes with regard to pay.... Mesa, Chit-Talk, and NOW SKYWEST will be lowering the bar for all regional pilots in the future. Yes, of course these are "trying" times and operating costs need to be reduced somewhat... However, we all know that this business, like most businesses, is cyclical to some degree and things will likely get better in a year or two (at least we hope!!!).

So, if Skywest pilots agree to fly 70-90 seaters for 50-seater pay, in return for a "promise" to review things in 18 months, then that sets a horrible precedent. There should be guaranteed increases in 18 months - something in writing at the very LEAST.... Why not base the rates on Horizon or ASA/Comair rates effective 18 months from now if Skywest is hurting or in need of some breathing room? Get it in writing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't give away the farm and lower the bar for the rest of the industry like Mesa and Chit-Talk have....

I like the carrot of maybe flying a +90 seat airplane (i.e., 717) in the future - yeah, and maybe I'll win the $300 million POWERBALL Lotto TWICE.... What a joke!

Vote that proposal down unless you want to become industry pariahs like Mesa!

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again...

Why does everyone seem to accept that mesa and other regional carriers who agree to fly for less than industry standard put undue pressure on the profession and the contracts of their competition, but when I point out the same effect at aai, luv, or jetblue, my comments are dismissed as the rantings of an "arrogant a-hole Delta pilot."

I fail to see the difference.

And yes, the race to the bottom is most certainly underway.

 

[General Lee]

EMBDRVR,

Skywest flies for more than one airline. Yes, they will not fly anything over 50 seats for the Delta side (ASA and Comair get the 57 alotted 70 seaters), but for United they can get anything United approves---and I think they want Skywest to get bigger planes.


Flyingsig,

My friend says they have an in-house union-----with a pilot appointed by managemnet (who gets paid 105 hours a month to fill the position) as their leader.

This will all get interesting soon.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[pa34driver]

From what I heard, they could either get the same rate, or take a pay cut from the 50 seaters. Knowing that they will have well over 100 50 seaters, I am sure this will be a better deal for the next 18 months.

 

[JBcrjca]

Why is everyone suddenly comparing SkyWest to Mesa and Chautauqua? This is just a TA guys, it hasn't been set in stone yet. I agree that flying 70-90 seaters for 50 seat rates is rediculous, and I plan on giving it a big thumbs down. As bladeusa says, the race to the bottom has started...but SkyWest didn't start the race. It started when the industry took a huge dump in late 2001.

Mesa took it in the shorts for one big reason...scoping out Freedom Air. I can kinda see how their hands were tied, because that J.O. is a sneaky ba$tard. I'm not sure exactly what's going on at CHQ, but I suspect it's more whipsawing them against Shuttle America/Republic. Didn't Air Wisconsin and ACA just vote on some pay concessions? Let's face it, pay is going to be reduced slightly whether we like it or not. The major partners like UAL are aggressively trying to cut costs, and will award feeder contracts to the lowest bidders. If Mesa and CHQ have the lower costs due to lower wages, then it's safe to assume that they'll get the feeder contracts. So where does that leave Air Wisc., ACA, SkyWest, etc.? Everyone is going to feel the pinch eventually.

There needs to be some extra pay for flying the extra seats. How much extra? I don't know, but you'd think that SkyWest could use CMR, ASA, Horizon, or Eagle 70/90 seat rates as a benchmark at least. The silliest part is that SkyWest doesn't even have any larger jets on order. Just dangling a carrot I guess. But one other thing to think about....I could be misinformed, but doesn't America West have one pay scale for the 737/A320/757? Doesn't UPS have one pay scale for the entire fleet from the 727 up to the 747? I haven't seen anyone mention that when bashing SkyWest yet...so if this TA does pass for some reason, it won't be setting a precedent or 'lowering the bar', as people love to say.

General Lee - your friend isn't quite correct. It's not an in-house union, but an association (SAPA) not recognized by the NMB. There has been talk recently about getting the association certified however. But for now the company does try their best (usually) to keep everyone relatively happy. Also, the president of the association isn't appointed by the company. He was a line pilot who volunteered for the position, and he does get 105 hrs pay every month to work for SAPA. If the pilot group gets upset with his performance, there could be a vote to remove him and find a replacement. Sorry, just trying to set the record straight.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

EMBDRVR,

Skywest flies for more than one airline. Yes, they will not fly anything over 50 seats for the Delta side (ASA and Comair get the 57 alotted 70 seaters), but for United they can get anything United approves---and I think they want Skywest to get bigger planes.

General,

You are incorrect on this one. According to our contract, no carrier can fly anything larger than 70 seats for any airline without our permission. If Skywest were to fly anything over 70 seats for anyone, they would lose their Delta contract.

Of course, our mec would probably roll over again.

 

[embdrvr]

It seems a bit strange that the Delta MEC could control what SkyWest could fly for United although the scope is understandable when applied to DCI flying. Do you think the MEC would roll over and play dead if SKyWest was going to fly 90 seaters for UAL?

 

[Jeepman]

SkyWeest IS NOT racing to the bottom! You guys must have missed the part where it said 18 MONTHS!! Not seven years like Air Whiskey or MESA. Again, if we were to get the 70 seaters we would almost be ready to renegotiate a new contract by the time we got the planes. By then UAL would be out of bankruptcy and we would be in a much better stand to raise the bar. If we don't approve the TA then MESA would most likely get the contract and we would probably furlough pilots.

 

[Midlifecrisis]

The SkyWest TA is...

1) Nobody's business but the pilots at SkyWest, certainly not the likes of General Lee (dude, don't you have anything else to do with your time than haunt the Regionals Board? Highest pay to the last day man, whatever) or anyone else who is not a SkyWest pilot.

2) The precedent for different sizes of aircraft being paid the same exists elsewhere, we wouldn't be inventing that wheel: the previously mentioned examples as well as UAL who pays the 737/A319/A320 the same, the 757/767 the same and the 777/747 the same.

3) The concept that SkyWest would be leading the industry to the bottom is crap. The TA doesn't ask for a pay CUT (unlike several recent regional TAs) and it's only 18 months (vs 7-15 years seen elsewhere). In case you haven't noticed, the economy still sucks, but our pilot group has a history or working with management proactively toward the betterment of the airline and thereby improving our own job security, future pay potential and quality of life.

Everyone just take a chill and let the good pilot folks at SkyWest make up their own minds without your bellyaching and whining.

MLC

 

[j41driver]

Didn't Air Wisconsin and ACA just vote on some pay concessions?

ACA has a TA but it hasn't been "officially" introduced to the pilots and is still subject to ratification, which, if CVG is any indicator most likely will not happen.

 

[g159av8tor]

Visit acaforums.com

All ACA pilots and interested folks should visit acaforums.com and join in on the debate. All points of view and opinions are welcome!!!

Tailwinds...

 

[JBcrjca]

Thanks for the clarification on ACA, gentlemen. It's hard enough to keep up with ones own company, let alone the rest of the industry. Fly safe.

 

[FlyingSig]

Your ingnorance is excused. Just being non-union doen't mean you don't have a contract. Guess what, our company (non-union) doesn't use the line "fly it and grieve it." They just honor the contract. Now isn't that refreshing?

Not trying to start a heated debate or anything, just trying to understand.... let's say that the pilots didn't want this TA, but managment really really did even though it would mean an end to the lovefest between employees and management.... Could Skywest management impose the TA or do the pilots actually have some legal clout to prevent this? (I'm not asking if Skywest would do this...just if they could) Do you guys have a scope section in your contract? Are new airframes addressed? Just curious....

 

[Windycity]

I am a skywest pilot , and yes this TA is crap. Sure it's only 18 months, a big positive, unless you think a littlte outside the box. Every pilot who works here knows there is a union drive going on. If you look at the rules of the NMB, when a union is voted in, the CURRENT rates become the letter of the law and cannot be changed without negotiations. Negotiations, which we all know would take years if a union is voted in. All the while we are flying 70 and 90 seat airplanes at CURRENT 50 seat RJ rates. True, our 50 seat RJ rates are currently higher than Eagle, Pinnacle, Air Whiskey, ACA, and Mesa. However, there is no promise we will get a raise in the 70 and 90 seat aircraft in 18 months.

Hence, a very possible scenario which the intellects in SGU have already palyed out. First, we vote for this TA because NOBODY is taking pay cuts, and everyone else is. (That's how this TA is being sold) In 18 months, the industry has recoverd slightly, and UAL has us flying 70's (maybe 90's) all over the place. Skywest pilots salivate because we know our contract is up for re-negotiations when all these 70's begin to get into full swing. Management says hell no to raises! There is nothing in the TA which says they must give us raises in 18 months. WE say oh yea, and vote in our big bad union-FINALLY! The catch, all the pilots who sold their souls "just to get the planes on the property" realize SGU outsmarted us. WE are stuck at these crap 70 and 90 seat rates while we take 2 years to negotiate new ones. Sure, we will have nice 50 seat rates, but in the four years this scenario plays out management makes money hand over fist as we cancel all future 50 seat orders, and are now operating the largest fleet of 70's at the lowest price out there.

For all the pilots who just want to get the planes on the property, think long and hard about it. WE are setting a very dangerous precedent that will come back to haunt us.

 

[small town guy]

I would also like to defend our "TA" at Skywest.

First, I would prefer to see raises in the 50 seat jet, an additional 20 percent for the 70-seater and say an extra 10 percent for the 90 seat RJ. Many would be correct in saying that this would be a fair and reasonable agreement - good for the pilots, good for Skywest, and good for our industry. However, these are not normal times.

Part of the problem with our industry in turmoil and United in bankruptcy is that current United Express carriers must "bid" for future flying while additional non United Express regionals also bid for that same flying that a bankrupcy judge will decide. This obviously means Skywest must be competative including our pilot pay rates.

This is why I think our TA at Skywest is as good as could be expected considering current conditions. If Skywest is awarded future United Express flying, we will have the highest pay rates amoung airlines (Skywest, ACA, Air Wisc, Chataqua, Mesa, ect.) competing for this flying-although I'm not sure about ACA. For example, compared with Air Wisc., our 50 seat captains will make between 3 and 4 dollars more per hour and our F.O.s will also get a couple dollars more. In the 70 seat jet, our F.O.s still make the same amount more and our captains make about 50 cents less. It seems too good to be true with so much at stake-what is the catch?

If we approve this new TA, 70 and 90 seat RJs will be flown at 50 seat rates so no pilot has to take a pay cut and will continue to get yearly raises. Like it was said above, we can only fly 70 seat RJs and still ba a Delta connection. So, for the next 18 months, I will gladly vote "yes" and hope for a much better industry a year and a half from now when we all will be looking at a better future.

Finally, I just think that the common pay rates for 50, 70, and (90?) seat jets is simply a new way to control our costs and disrupt our pilots lives the least. I do not believe we are "racing to the bottom" and I don't think it's an unreasonable agreement.

 

[trip]

There is no reason to vote in favor of this TA, If we do we are setting ourselfs up for big problems 18 months from now. Vote NO, we keep the same rates we have and would have had in the new TA, when managment makes an order for 70"s then lets talk pay. They dont need a pay scale to figure out whether we can operate larger AC our not. The 100+ seat rate is just a dangling carrot and should not even be in the package. Lets not get locked into a precendent setting pay scale before the order is placed!!!

 

[Anaconda]

Re: The SkyWest TA is...

1) Nobody's business but the pilots at SkyWest, certainly not the likes of General Lee (dude, don't you have anything else to do with your time than haunt the Regionals Board? Highest pay to the last day man, whatever) or anyone else who is not a SkyWest pilot.

and it only took the general three posts and one day to try and turn it in to a comair bashing thread...

 

[General Lee]

Man alive, I always get slammed when I bring up a topic I AM INTERESTED IN. Can't I do that? Oh wait, I don't fly for a regional, so I can't go on this board, right? Whatever. I guess I don't know anybody at any regional or have questions about any other airline. Whatever.

Midlifecrisis,

Easy there chief. I like your quote:

) Nobody's business but the pilots at SkyWest, certainly not the likes of General Lee (dude, don't you have anything else to do with your time than haunt the Regionals Board? Highest pay to the last day man, whatever) or anyone else who is not a SkyWest pilot.



Come on dude, you have got to be kidding me? You guys have your own forum, right? So nobody else can talk about Skywest on any other forum? Yeah, ok. You just don't like it that your little secret was leaked. I brought up this discussion after talking about it with a Skywest friend, and I thought it was ridiculous. Don't blame me, our guys at Delta are keeping UP the payscales. Even if we do take a pay cut coming up here, we will still be paid A LOT more than the others, which is good---so they can shoot for that payscale in 5-6 years. Am I haunting the Regional Board? So, according to you I cannot bring up subjects and ask questions at anytime? Sure, whatever, yeah ok.

Windycity,

I think you are correct about your management at SGU. From what I have heard from my friend you do have a pretty good relationship with your management, and I wish we had the same with Leo and company at Delta. But, it is a little strange that they didn't even give you a $5 an hour raise or anything---for a plane that could have 49 more seats (up to 99 seats total). And they want to dangle the carrot of 100-159 seat aircraft without even an order. It just seems sneaky. And how about a promise of wage increases after 18 months, instead of a "review"? Sure, the economy may still be in the tubes, or maybe it will take 2 more years to negotiate. Yes, they may know that you might get a union like ALPA if they do not, but that may take awhile too. But, I see people taking the offer because it promises growth and upgrades for all of the FO's and the junior Capt's will get lines etc.


Anaconda,

Every Delta pilot is not happy with Comair and the MEC Chair's position on not helping the Delta furloughs without the senority resignation. I try to leave it out of other subjects, but sometimes it just slips out.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[SKYWRJGUY]

FWIW

For what it's worth, the contract does include ~3% raise per seat inJuly. What used to be both a contract signing date raise, along with an anniversary raise, has been changed to reflect the single raise this summer. Somebody mentioned "at least" getting an extra dollar---for most the 3% will be more than that. Jury is seemingly 50/50 on love/hate it.

 

[Heavy Set]

Quit slammin' the General...

Why are you guys slamming General Lee on this topic? He brings up a great point - Skywest wants to lower the bar for pay like Mesa and Chit-Talk. Shouldn't that be of interest to others? Well shouldn't it? Huh??????????????? He brought it up - and nobody else did...

Windy City and Trip make excellent points about the crap TA - and they are Skywest pilots. They have a right to be outraged...

So, if you guys want to eventually fly for a major someday on the horizon, don't count on it. Why? Because the regionals will be sooooooooo cheap they will operate all trips under 1,000 miles for the majors. Complete outsourcing because of the deals Mesa and (soon) Skywest have made. The economic case will be too COMPELLING to ignore... Yeah, you guys will have ample opportunity to fly thousands of CRJs all around the country while General Lee and his fellow Deltoids are relegated to his 767 flying off to Hawaii and Istanbul (no more trips to Detroit)....

Don't bring the bar down any lower - or the entire industry will suffer...

 

[General Lee]

Thanks Heavy set (I think??). I want to know when we will be flying the 767's FROM Hawaii TO Istanbul? Now that would be a great trip! Maybe Song could fly it?

My whole point is that there should be some more questions made to Skywest management and some more reassurances. If things get better in 18 months, how long will it take to get the new rates? Have it in writing... If they take more than 2 months--the pay automatically doubles. Something like that. Have it in writing!!! If you don't, and management comes up with some more excuses, you will be stuck with it, and all of the other regionals will be doing it too---and you won't be competitive, etc...

Bye Bye----General Lee

PS---I kind of liked Detroit---the Novi Hilton was a nice hotel