Skywest new pay proposal! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[PCL_128]

Slow the throttle, save fuel, everyone wins.

Or they could just grow a pair and stand up for themselves to get the representation and contract that they deserve.

 

[XPOO]

Or they could just grow a pair and stand up for themselves to get the representation and contract that they deserve.

Or we can just agree to disagree. Fine with me. lol

 

[PCL_128]

Or we can just agree to disagree. Fine with me. lol

Maybe you should go back to your dispatch cubicle and stop worrying about pilot concerns. "LOL"

 

[XPOO]

At my cubicle now, keeping pilots and passengers safe as we speak. Also, after cancelling quite a few flights in ORD yesterday I kept a bunch of pilots and passengers from having to sit countless hours waiting to deice and get their flow times. And I could care less what speed they fly the planes at. lol back atcha.

 

[WalterSobchak]

Nah, just thought it would be funny to see your name in red for a day or two. Apparently, the mods got off that decency high-horse they were on for a while there...darn.

Ya see, PBR...there are two kind of pilots at every airline. There are stupid pilots and there are professionals. I deal with both kinds everyday. I hate to break it to you but, based on the idiocy you spew on this site while hidden behind a computer screen, you're just one of the stupid pilots that can't hang with the real professionals.

Dispatchers and Pilots are obviously completely different workgroups with different challenges...but like it or not, we all fall under flight operations and, therefore, our interests as far as the companies we work for our the same. And, because of those interests, the dispatch element on this forum likely isn't going away. We care just as much about what is going on with our employers because, newsflash, it doesn't just affect you.

I defend XPOO because, a.) he's a fellow dispatcher, b.) I don't see where he has said anything that is ridiculously out of line (unlike you). Here's what I see...a small group of pilots that, when their ability to argue against a differing viewpoint reasonably is gone, they turn to ripping on the other person...be it for who they work for or what their job position is. XPOO speaks what he thinks on the topic...but, as far as I've seen, hasn't resorted to namecalling until someone starts with him.

There is a reason pilots are viewed less than favorably by other workgroups. The vocal minority of you think the airline revolves around you. There is a history in this industry of that vocal minority (and occasional majority) fighting and fighting to the point where it costs the jobs and livelihoods of the people already making 1/4th of what you make.

No amount of representation is going to put wages where we all think we should be paid. Especially not at the regional level. Some of you guys accuse SkyWest of "stealing" flying from Air Whiskey and Skyway...but did it ever occur to you that AW's "industry leading" pilot contract had alot to do keeping them from getting the costs where UAL wanted them to be? Is it "undercutting"? You're damn right it is...you work for contract carriers, that's kinda the point of their existence. And, SkyWest is nothing more than the benefactor of a poorly managed Midwest.

Listen, management sucks at all levels in this industry, no doubt. But, they're not always lining their pockets...they're keeping as many people as possible...not just the pilots...employed. YX can jettison Skyway and get costs where they need to be...perhaps saving the jobs of more than will lose theirs by keeping YX afloat. It sucks, but business is a wicked game. I hate that those crews at Skyway have lost their jobs...I've flown Skyway and never met a nicer group of people. I wish them the best...and that this maybe even be a blessing in disguise.

So, forgive those of us who see the big picture, beyond the instruments and what you see on the other side of the windscreen, for thinking that maybe you guys don't have it nearly as bad as you think you do.

PCL, you work for AirTran now. You're not at a regional (well, technically...Citrus being only slightly more than a glorified east coast regional as it is...I'm allowed to say that, I used to work there). Your input here isn't any more relevant than what you think of the relevance of the dispatcher that needs to "go back to his cubicle". But hey, at least your avatar doesn't suck. Obama '08!

PBR, for a guy that claims to be living the dream with a different F/A on every overnight...you spend a disturbing amount of time on FI. I mean, at least the dispatchers have the excuse of internet access at their workstation during downtime.

 

[USCtrojan]

Nah, just thought it would be funny to see your name in red for a day or two. Apparently, the mods got off that decency high-horse they were on for a while there...darn.

Ya see, PBR...there are two kind of pilots at every airline. There are stupid pilots and there are professionals. I deal with both kinds everyday. I hate to break it to you but, based on the idiocy you spew on this site while hidden behind a computer screen, you're just one of the stupid pilots that can't hang with the real professionals.

Dispatchers and Pilots are obviously completely different workgroups with different challenges...but like it or not, we all fall under flight operations and, therefore, our interests as far as the companies we work for our the same. And, because of those interests, the dispatch element on this forum likely isn't going away. We care just as much about what is going on with our employers because, newsflash, it doesn't just affect you.

I defend XPOO because, a.) he's a fellow dispatcher, b.) I don't see where he has said anything that is ridiculously out of line (unlike you). Here's what I see...a small group of pilots that, when their ability to argue against a differing viewpoint reasonably is gone, they turn to ripping on the other person...be it for who they work for or what their job position is. XPOO speaks what he thinks on the topic...but, as far as I've seen, hasn't resorted to namecalling until someone starts with him.

There is a reason pilots are viewed less than favorably by other workgroups. The vocal minority of you think the airline revolves around you. There is a history in this industry of that vocal minority (and occasional majority) fighting and fighting to the point where it costs the jobs and livelihoods of the people already making 1/4th of what you make.

No amount of representation is going to put wages where we all think we should be paid. Especially not at the regional level. Some of you guys accuse SkyWest of "stealing" flying from Air Whiskey and Skyway...but did it ever occur to you that AW's "industry leading" pilot contract had alot to do keeping them from getting the costs where UAL wanted them to be? Is it "undercutting"? You're damn right it is...you work for contract carriers, that's kinda the point of their existence. And, SkyWest is nothing more than the benefactor of a poorly managed Midwest.

Listen, management sucks at all levels in this industry, no doubt. But, they're not always lining their pockets...they're keeping as many people as possible...not just the pilots...employed. YX can jettison Skyway and get costs where they need to be...perhaps saving the jobs of more than will lose theirs by keeping YX afloat. It sucks, but business is a wicked game. I hate that those crews at Skyway have lost their jobs...I've flown Skyway and never met a nicer group of people. I wish them the best...and that this maybe even be a blessing in disguise.

So, forgive those of us who see the big picture, beyond the instruments and what you see on the other side of the windscreen, for thinking that maybe you guys don't have it nearly as bad as you think you do.

PCL, you work for AirTran now. You're not at a regional (well, technically...Citrus being only slightly more than a glorified east coast regional as it is...I'm allow to say that, I used to work there). Your input here isn't any more relevant than what you think of the relevance of the dispatcher that needs to "go back to his cubicle". But hey, at least your avatar doesn't suck. Obama '08!

PBR, for a guy that claims to be living the dream with a different F/A on every overnight...you spend a disturbing amount of time on FI. I mean, at least the dispatchers have the excuse of internet access at their workstation during downtime.

Okay,
1) Where's your name?
2) Nobody gives a ****. This is an online forum. If you get your feathers ruffled, maybe you really need to look inward at your sanity?
3) Where's your name?

Trojan

 

[WalterSobchak]

Feathers ruffled? Hardly. You wanna see feathers ruffled, go back and read just about every thread relating to ASA and/or SkyWest & ALPA over the course of the last year. I'm just pointing out that some of you guys have no idea how stupid you really sound.

As far as my name, I prefer my anonymity on a public forum...primarily because I personally know members of management where I work that read this stuff and I like to keep them guessing. More importantly, PBR has my name, as we have exchanged PM's in the past...and therefore he knows who wrote it. And that was despite the fact that he refused to give me his name privately.

USC, when I feel the need to address you privately, I will share my name.

2) Nobody gives a ****.

Creative spelling!!!!

 

[Metro752]

At my cubicle now, keeping pilots and passengers safe as we speak. Also, after cancelling quite a few flights in ORD yesterday I kept a bunch of pilots and passengers from having to sit countless hours waiting to deice and get their flow times. And I could care less what speed they fly the planes at. lol back atcha.

Dispatcher, lol.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL, you work for AirTran now. You're not at a regional (well, technically...Citrus being only slightly more than a glorified east coast regional as it is...I'm allowed to say that, I used to work there).

Actually, over 30% of our flying is now west-coast. But hey, call it whatever you want as long as I keep getting over 20 days at home each month.

Your input here isn't any more relevant than what you think of the relevance of the dispatcher that needs to "go back to his cubicle".

This is a pilot board. There is a dispatcher section where XPOO can post to his heart's content about the "evils" of organized labor.

But hey, at least your avatar doesn't suck. Obama '08!

Obama '08!!!

 

[JoeMerchant]

In the interest of full disclosure, has Skywest ever "set the bar for the other regionals"?

When I was on the contract '98 negotiating committee, we used Skywest, Horizon, PDT, ALG, ACA, CCAir, CMR, and EGL as the carriers for comparison.... They had the best contracts.... very little was used from EGL, but they had some....

Most came from Skywest, ACA, and CMR......

..... so to answer your question.... YES.... They just don't pay Herndon 2% for lipservice.....

 

[PCL_128]

Joe, you know as well as I do that that's only because Skywest management has always had to keep up with the upper tier of regionals to keep their pilots from voting in a union. Without the threat of union representation, they wouldn't get anything close to what they've had over the years. As JP has said, they merely ride the coattails of all the unionized pilots that do the heavy lifting.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe, you know as well as I do that that's only because Skywest management has always had to keep up with the upper tier of regionals to keep their pilots from voting in a union. Without the threat of union representation, they wouldn't get anything close to what they've had over the years. As JP has said, they merely ride the coattails of all the unionized pilots that do the heavy lifting.

That maybe so..... but it doesn't alter the fact that they have always had some of the best regional payrates and workrules..... while some of the worst have come from ALPA carriers.... Mesa, PCL, and TSA come to mind...... We didn't use anything from the those 3 contracts, but we did use Skywest....

Until ALPA can do a better job of stopping whipsaw and prove that it can negotiate better pay for everyone.... Skywest will continue to do what it does...... I don't blame them..... It works and ALPA doesn't...

Fix ALPA, and people will want to join..... continue to try and sell them snake oil and they will run.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Exactly. Run away from the regionals ASAP. The fracs are really stepping up to the plate as far as pay and benefits go. Much more stability offered at the fracs than at the airlines as well.

You can thank unionization for that.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

You can thank unionization for that.....

..... you can't have it both ways Rez..... If the unions are to thank for the big increases in the pay at the fracs, then they must also be too blame for the failures at the regional airlines.....

You like to credit the unions with only the "wins", and blame the pilot's for the "losses"......

 

[PCL_128]

You like to credit the unions with only the "wins", and blame the pilot's for the "losses"......

The pilots are the unions. The pilots at NetJets got educated and built a strong union. Their strong unity and involvement, plus a strong grass roots "work to rule" effort got them where they are today. By the same token, uninvolved and uneducated ALPA members are largely to blame for ALPA's problems. An educated and involved membership is successful, and an apathetic and uneducated membership brings nothing but failure.

 

[JoeMerchant]

The pilots are the unions. The pilots at NetJets got educated and built a strong union. Their strong unity and involvement, plus a strong grass roots "work to rule" effort got them where they are today. By the same token, uninvolved and uneducated ALPA members are largely to blame for ALPA's problems. An educated and involved membership is successful, and an apathetic and uneducated membership brings nothing but failure.

..... and whipsaw doesn't have anything to do with it??? Are the NetJet pilots competing within the brand for flying?

How about CMR? They were extremely unified and involved at one time.... What has been their reward.... They are being systematically dismantled and replaced by fellow union pilots.....

Can't have it both ways.... If unions get credit for victories, then they also get the criticism with the failures....

I agree with you about the apathy..... but part of the problems is the master/apprentice relationship that we have with the regional airlines..... Most people at the regional level just want to move on to "the show"..... That will continue to breed apathy.....

You paid Gulfstream to sit in the right seat because it was a means to an end..... You went to work for one of the worst ALPA's regional because it was a means to an end.....You then went to a substandard narrow body job because it was a means to an end.....

As long as we pilots keep trying to get to the next level, we will never as a group do much to shore up the foundation...... If we don't shore up the foundation, we will have trouble all the way up the structure.....

....that is ALPA's fault.....

 

[WalterSobchak]

This is a pilot board. There is a dispatcher section where XPOO can post to his heart's content about the "evils" of organized labor.

Regionals
Regionals and related discussions.

The forum falls under the subject of Flight Operations. Like it or not, dispatchers are part of FlightOps.

Where exactly does it say "Regional Pilots"? I work for a regional...therefore this is relevant to my interests.

 

[PCL_128]

..... and whipsaw doesn't have anything to do with it??? Are the NetJet pilots competing within the brand for flying?

What led to the whipsaw, John? Uninformed, uninvolved pilots. ALPA has been filled with those kinds of pilots for decades. Too many pilots just want to fly their trips and go home, pretending that their union needs nothing more than 1.95% of their paycheck to solve all of life's problems. If pilots would wake the fu-- up and realize that it takes more than that, then maybe we wouldn't find ourselves in these kinds of situations. Maybe if more DAL pilots had been involved in their union back in the early 90s then some involved pilot could have stepped up and said "you know what? This whole scope outsourcing thing probably won't turn out too well." Instead, you had the same group of reps (usually senior guys) that weren't thinking outside of the box and weren't looking at the big picture. More involvement leads to more success.

You paid Gulfstream to sit in the right seat because it was a means to an end..... You went to work for one of the worst ALPA's regional because it was a means to an end.....You then went to a substandard narrow body job because it was a means to an end.....

I paid GIA to sit in the right seat because I was an uneducated, uninformed noob that didn't know jack sh--. Again, the whole "uninformed" thing created a problem. Noticing a trend here? As for Pinnacle, it was an industry-average airline when I went to work there, and it just so happened to be just about the only airline to be hiring at the time. Remember, I was hired shortly after 9/11. Many regionals had pilots furloughed. They certainly weren't hiring. And as for my current employer, your characterization of it being "substandard" is far from accurate.

...that is ALPA's fault.....

Of course, Joe. In your mind, everything is ALPA's fault.

 

[jonjuan]

You can thank unionization for that.....

..................................

 

[Nevets]

No amount of representation is going to put wages where we all think we should be paid. Especially not at the regional level. Some of you guys accuse SkyWest of "stealing" flying from Air Whiskey and Skyway...but did it ever occur to you that AW's "industry leading" pilot contract had alot to do keeping them from getting the costs where UAL wanted them to be? Is it "undercutting"? You're damn right it is...you work for contract carriers, that's kinda the point of their existence. And, SkyWest is nothing more than the benefactor of a poorly managed Midwest.

With a union you have more leverage than what Skywest has now (virtually none) and thus can take more of the money on the table. Of course none of us ever get paid as much as we would like to. I wouldn't say Skywest steals flying but they certainly "ride the coat tails" of others and never have the ability to set the bar. Its not the union's job to make sure the market will bare their contract. That is management's job. Management and unions both want to see their companies succeed but they have diametrically opposed duties. Nothing wrong with that. There is a happy medium.

 

[Nevets]

When I was on the contract '98 negotiating committee, we used Skywest, Horizon, PDT, ALG, ACA, CCAir, CMR, and EGL as the carriers for comparison.... They had the best contracts.... very little was used from EGL, but they had some....

Most came from Skywest, ACA, and CMR......

..... so to answer your question.... YES.... They just don't pay Herndon 2% for lipservice.....

Joe, you know as well as I do that that's only because Skywest management has always had to keep up with the upper tier of regionals to keep their pilots from voting in a union. Without the threat of union representation, they wouldn't get anything close to what they've had over the years. As JP has said, they merely ride the coattails of all the unionized pilots that do the heavy lifting.

"Any new collective bargaining agreements entered into by other regional carriers may also result in higher industry wages and increased pressure on us to increase the wages and benefits of our employees. Future agreements with unionized and non-unionized employees may be on terms that are not as attractive as our current agreements or comparable to agreements entered into by our competitors."

Skywest, Inc. Form 10-Q for the quarterly period ended September 30,2007 Page 24

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/da...25517_110q.htm

 

[Nevets]

That maybe so..... but it doesn't alter the fact that they have always had some of the best regional payrates and workrules..... while some of the worst have come from ALPA carriers.... Mesa, PCL, and TSA come to mind...... We didn't use anything from the those 3 contracts, but we did use Skywest....

Until ALPA can do a better job of stopping whipsaw and prove that it can negotiate better pay for everyone.... Skywest will continue to do what it does...... I don't blame them..... It works and ALPA doesn't...

Fix ALPA, and people will want to join..... continue to try and sell them snake oil and they will run.....

Leverage is different from carrier to carrier and from time to different times. For example, NJA and FDX have more leverage and therefore can take more money on the table. ASA started negotiating their contract shortly after 9/11 and during DALs bankruptcy and thus didn't have much leverage. This is part of the reason why it took so long for them to come to an agreement. They were not in a hurry and waited until the time was better to increase their leverage.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Don't be fudging the numbers here. The 200 at Skywest is mostly flown at .77 but sometimes .74.

You're flying a -200 at .77? In a dive, maybe.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Leverage is different from carrier to carrier and from time to different times. For example, NJA and FDX have more leverage and therefore can take more money on the table. ASA started negotiating their contract shortly after 9/11 and during DALs bankruptcy and thus didn't have much leverage. This is part of the reason why it took so long for them to come to an agreement. They were not in a hurry and waited until the time was better to increase their leverage.

Real leverage comes when you control the flying and it can't be given to someone else....None of us have that at the regional level..... ALPA or not.....

Your at XJT, and you were penalized because your compensation and workrules went to the top of the pack..... As was CMR, ALG, PDT, ACA, Air Wisc., etc.

If you ALPA cheerleaders want real leverage, you will have to convince ALPA national and the mainline MEC's that there has to be true "brand scope"....

Don't confuse "leverage" with "ALPA membership"....they aren't the same.....

 

[Richard Gozinya]

You're flying a -200 at .77? In a dive, maybe.

.77 at cruise happens more times than not. You're an ATR guy right? What do you know about the RJ? Only what you hear.

Dick Gozinya

 

[USCtrojan]

Feathers ruffled? Hardly. You wanna see feathers ruffled, go back and read just about every thread relating to ASA and/or SkyWest & ALPA over the course of the last year. I'm just pointing out that some of you guys have no idea how stupid you really sound.

As far as my name, I prefer my anonymity on a public forum...primarily because I personally know members of management where I work that read this stuff and I like to keep them guessing. More importantly, PBR has my name, as we have exchanged PM's in the past...and therefore he knows who wrote it. And that was despite the fact that he refused to give me his name privately.

USC, when I feel the need to address you privately, I will share my name.

Hypersensitive? Now if you know PBR on a personal level and this stuff bothers you, I'd advise you to take it up with him personally. If your mgmt. team reads this stuff and holds individuals accountable, well, I feel very sorry for them. Sheesh, Mormons are quite hypersensitive? Or control freaks? I can't make up my mind. Good luck with PBR, I seriously doubt any of your posts will make a difference in his thinking or posting. Good Luck with that.

Trojan



Creative spelling!!!!

Oh dam, you caught me. Uh oh, will I get suspended? I want my rite of passage!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Real leverage comes when you control the flying and it can't be given to someone else....None of us have that at the regional level..... ALPA or not.....

No Shat Joe. Gee you are a real mind blowing observationist! You are really good at identifying what has happened and what is happening... but you have no clue how to effect change. If you saw a horrific accident you'd get out of your car and tell the victim how much they are in pain, where all the blood is and top it off with your misery in terms of how the ambulance will get into its own accident on the way....

If you ALPA cheerleaders want real leverage, you will have to convince ALPA national and the mainline MEC's that there has to be true "brand scope"....

Do you want real leverage Joe?

Don't confuse "leverage" with "ALPA membership"....they aren't the same.....

Don't confuse Joey Merchant with leadership, team work, education, progression, professional, integrity, trust, & respect.

I don't want to be in a stall with Sen. Craig or a car with Teddy Kennedy......

Joe...on FI you are the stall.... nothing but a divisive, self centered, bitter loser....

 

[WalterSobchak]

Hypersensitive? Now if you know PBR on a personal level and this stuff bothers you, I'd advise you to take it up with him personally. If your mgmt. team reads this stuff and holds individuals accountable, well, I feel very sorry for them. Sheesh, Mormons are quite hypersensitive? Or control freaks? I can't make up my mind. Good luck with PBR, I seriously doubt any of your posts will make a difference in his thinking or posting. Good Luck with that.

Trojan

I'm not bothered personally by anything PBR says...again, I just like pointing out he sounds like a retard with the constant dispatcher bashing like he has some kind of penis envy. He can talk as much crap about our workgroup as he wants...one day it will bite him in the tail.

Not sure what the Mormon thing has to do with anything...I'm not Mormon, nor are the members of mgmt. I speak of (that I know of, anyway...we don't exactly sit around talking religion).

I'm not being held accountable for anything I post here, per se...they just don't know who I am on here. Even if they did know...they post here, too...they just don't know I know who they are. I just consider it good form to leave things I say publicly on FI anonymous.

 

[Richard Gozinya]

I'm not bothered personally by anything PBR says...again, I just like pointing out he sounds like a retard with the constant dispatcher bashing like he has some kind of penis envy. He can talk as much crap about our workgroup as he wants...one day it will bite him in the tail.

Not sure what the Mormon thing has to do with anything...I'm not Mormon, nor are the members of mgmt. I speak of (that I know of, anyway...we don't exactly sit around talking religion).

I'm not being held accountable for anything I post here, per se...they just don't know who I am on here. Even if they did know...they post here, too...they just don't know I know who they are. I just consider it good form to leave things I say publicly on FI anonymous.

I get it! You are a member of the Clinton campaign! It sounds like you are talking in a circle. Depends on what the definition of accountable is.

Dick

 

[WalterSobchak]

I get it! You are a member of the Clinton campaign! It sounds like you are talking in a circle. Depends on what the definition of accountable is.

Dick

OK....that hurt a little.