sics paying for time

[Randy Clark]

Here goes........

Here is my scoop. I don't usually chime in to this stuff because it has been beat to death. Do what you feel you should do, nobody is going to care 5 years from now how you got 250 hours a long time ago. I did it way back when and it was great for me to fly in all types of weather and mountains with different approaches and some using lead in lights, gets kinda touchy!! For some people to just sit here and hate on this is crazy, you won't hate it if SWA come to you and say go get a 737 type so we can interview you, not a job just an interview. I am not an instructor nor did I ever want to be, I could not imagine some ham hand student trying to kill me everyday. I started late in life like you and it worked out just fine. PM me if you want more info.

 

[81Horse]

I don't think is worthless, like I said I'm getting real good experience flying 135 dealing with the real thing. Luckly the PICs let me fly most of the time, I'm proud to say that I fly with real nice PICs. For your info. You can't get paid as SIC on a plane that doesn't require 2 pilots.

For your info, you also cannot log SIC time on a plane that doesn't require two pilots; so, in fact, you are not building any time at all riding along on these freighter flights. There's another thread going right now on this very subject.

You've asked for advice -- and you're getting it from some pilots who are way, way farther along in their careers than you are. What you do with it is up to you. Just be aware that all this right-seat time you're getting -- while it may be a good learning experience for you -- is not going to be a resume-builder or time-builder.

Get a flying job, any kind of flying job, if you're serious about making a career out of this. 'Cause so far, you're not all that.

 

[PCL_128]

For your info, you also cannot log SIC time on a plane that doesn't require two pilots; so, in fact, you are not building any time at all riding along on these freighter flights.

That isn't entirely correct. If the company's Ops Specs require an SIC even on a single-pilot airplane, then the FAA considers it to be loggable SIC time.

 

[81Horse]

That isn't entirely correct. If the company's Ops Specs require an SIC even on a single-pilot airplane, then the FAA considers it to be loggable SIC time.

I agree -- as you say, if an SIC is legally required (by Ops Specs or FAR), the time would be loggable. Not clear if that is the case here; if it is, that pilot should be getting paid!

Someone mentioned this test in another thread: would the PIC be legal to operate the flight without you? If yes, you are not a required SIC. That said, there's nothing wrong with going along on a joyride (buy the guy breakfast, but don't pay for your time!); joyrides are a time-honored aviation tradition.

</rant>

 

[Photoflight]

I think you guys are missing the point. SIC at low TT is fairly worthless and can be made even more worthless depending on the type of airplane. Yes you can log SIC in a baron or whatever and if you can get on at a place like airnet that does this and then allows you to transition to a captains slot once you reach mins and all they while you get paid its a pretty sweet deal for a wet commercial/CFI.

However the difference is that its sounds like you wanna go buy 100 hours of multi time in something someplace possibly taking a real job from somebody. Also try taking that 100 hours of SIC time in a baron or whatever to another company and get a job and youll be laughed out of the place.

 

[barnyard]

Careful what you log

hey dude-

Keep your long term goals in mind. If your ambition is to go to a regional, 'retire' as a captain while continuing to do your real estate thing on the side, the paying for SIC thing might work. However if you're trying to get in the corporate world and show up to an interview with a bunch of single pilot ac SIC time, you have a much grater chance of getting laughed out of the interview in the first 10 minutes.
Where I work there is an SIC program where guys buy right seat time in the single pilot airplanes. Now while the FAA says you can legally log the time SIC, it just looks funny to someone who has been in the business decades. Some guys say they will log PIC time under the 'sole manipulator' rule. While this is legal to do, anyone with any aviation experience knows it's bogus that a 135 would give a 600 hour guy a twin turbine to go fly around as the captain. So your faced with the dilemma that you can actually log the time PIC, while not being the captain of the airplane. Yes you can log the time, but upon logbook inspection at your next interview, the person across the desk mat be looking for PIC time, not 'sole manipulator' time. They may even see it as you falsifying your experience trying to cut in line. Slippery slope.
There is almost no fast track to break into the corporate world (except for knowing mgmt at a company with a flight dept) but if your goal is a regional this may be a good option. My advice is to never put anything in your logbook that could be construed into you lying about your experience. Hope this helps, and good luck!

 

[barnyard]

I agree -- as you say, if an SIC is legally required (by Ops Specs or FAR), the time would be loggable. Not clear if that is the case here; if it is, that pilot should be getting paid!

Someone mentioned this test in another thread: would the PIC be legal to operate the flight without you? If yes, you are not a required SIC. That said, there's nothing wrong with going along on a joyride (buy the guy breakfast, but don't pay for your time!); joyrides are a time-honored aviation tradition.

</rant>

The largest 135 cargo company is granted the privlege of 'assigning' an FO to a flight and making them a required crewmember. But we can bump them for weight. If they dont show, the flight goes anyways. Legal? yes. Kinda silly? yes. Oh well.

 

[MD11Drvr]

JUst one more observation. If you can't afford the pay cut to instruct I surely don't know how you are planning on breaking into this biz. My first flying jobs all cost me money in one way or the other. I never paid for a job but to live in CLT to fly an aztec and make less than 1000.00 a month is a pay cut for most. I was pumping fuel and a little light a&p work so I was not making a lot when I started flying and it was a cut. I worked 10pm-6am at an FBO got off and flew morning traffic went home slept till afternoon traffic flew a few more hours went back to work, Pulled banners on weekends and summers but never instructed. I wish I had instructed but got the time anyways.

I am not saying abandon the dream but maybe save your money from real estate and when you have enough in the bank to keep your life style then jump in. I have many friends that feel off along the way as it is not easy to juggle this career. Good Luck

 

[FN FAL]

Why fly? because I love to fly and that is it.

There you have it, there's nothing wrong with living on love, lot's of people do it. Just don't expect any sympathy when you make the funny papers.

 

[freighthumper]

Buying jobs

1. "I'm self employed doing real eastate and I make pretty good money" So why do you want to start working for an airline that wont appreciate you, pay you much, or let you be home with your family?

2. My mother told me "if you dont have anything nice to say, dont say anything at all"

3. Oh well..people who buy time in those "SIC" programs are retarded. You are getting time that had been fudged to be legal in the books, its really nothing more than buying a ticket at an amusement park. You pay the money, go on the ride, but if you arent there..the ride goes on without you..Why? because those "SIC" suckers are nothing more than more than a passenger who gets to play pilot for a couple months. It should be called "SIO" Second In Occupancy. It may seem like a good idea to shell out like 15 grand for some time in a 99 or something like that to try and beat the whole earn your dues thing, but your "dues" cant be bought, and eventually you will be judged for that by someone who at one time or another has been undercut by someone who thought he/she could get ahead by shelling out $(this is about 99 percent of airline pilots).

4. If you are making good $ why not instruct or do another legitimate time building job on the weekends, or maybe take 4 day weekend and build time since you say you are your own boss.

5. If you are REALLY in real estate....you should be able to spell it...that is if this isnt flame bait.

 

[tinman]

Hey Barnyard, good pic. Ain't it the truth.

 

[fre8ersic]

1. "I'm self employed doing real eastate and I make pretty good money" So why do you want to start working for an airline that wont appreciate you, pay you much, or let you be home with your family?

2. My mother told me "if you dont have anything nice to say, dont say anything at all"

3. Oh well..people who buy time in those "SIC" programs are retarded. You are getting time that had been fudged to be legal in the books, its really nothing more than buying a ticket at an amusement park. You pay the money, go on the ride, but if you arent there..the ride goes on without you..Why? because those "SIC" suckers are nothing more than more than a passenger who gets to play pilot for a couple months. It should be called "SIO" Second In Occupancy. It may seem like a good idea to shell out like 15 grand for some time in a 99 or something like that to try and beat the whole earn your dues thing, but your "dues" cant be bought, and eventually you will be judged for that by someone who at one time or another has been undercut by someone who thought he/she could get ahead by shelling out $(this is about 99 percent of airline pilots).

4. If you are making good $ why not instruct or do another legitimate time building job on the weekends, or maybe take 4 day weekend and build time since you say you are your own boss.

5. If you are REALLY in real estate....you should be able to spell it...that is if this isnt flame bait.

Easy buddy, that was just a typo.

 

[fre8ersic]

Easy buddy, that was just a typo.

Listen to your mother.

 

[fre8ersic]

Listen to your mother.

 

[Bringupthebird]

If you're making good money, why not buy an Apache and fly it all summer yourself. The kids will get to see the USA from a unique perspective and you'll build multi-engine PIC time. I've seen previously successful people do this when deciding to make a career change late in life.

The Law of Sacrifice is similar to the Law of Conservation of Energy that states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, only changed in form. The "dues" you'l pay to get to your desired career goal will be paid in one form or another. For you, starting later means you'll have a shorter career (provided you want to go the airline route) and your family will have to share in your sacrifice. For many here, they flew checks as single guys and sacrificed some of their time that could have been spent raising a family.

The point is your climb will either be short and steep or long and slow, but the effort and perseverence necesssary will be the same. There are no "short cuts".