Senority System

[Spooky 1]

I'm with Skyline and Rahlga (or whatever) on this one. The seniority system is antiquated and needs to be gotten rid of. Not completely, but mostly. It does encourage incompetence and laziness. All you've gotta do is sit over there and not kill anybody for about 3 to 4 years and boom.....you're gonna upgrade. You could be the $hittiest pilot ever, call in sick every other week, be a complete a$$hole to your crews, basically be the ultimate crappy employee and it doesn't matter. When your number is up, there you go. A combination of seniority and merit should be in place. All the senoirity advocates all say the same thing about a$$ kissing, etc. but the fact of the matter is, almost every other industry in the world has gotten by just fine for the last 200 years without it. I've watched my father get by fine without it for 30 years of working at his job......he is now at the top of his profession. Why? Because he is good at what he does, is respected by his peers, and was the most qualified.

There is nothing wrong with a merit based system, as long as it's done right. I hate the seniority system. It's there for one reason: to protect the dumbest, laziest, most inept motherf-ckers at the company.

Hey CAP'n, I guess with 2600 hours you know everything about this business? Also I assume that if your senior and old, you are therefore dumb, lazy, inept, and maybe even fu#king your mother. You are a complete toad with a serious socialistic approach to life. Please don't talk about anything important such performance based upgrading, seniority progression. Your on my ignore list from here on.

 

[CapnVegetto]

Hey CAP'n, I guess with 2600 hours you know everything about this business? Also I assume that if your senior and old, you are therefore dumb, lazy, inept, and maybe even fu#king your mother. You are a complete toad with a serious socialistic approach to life. Please don't talk about anything important such performance based upgrading, seniority progression. Your on my ignore list from here on.

Oh boy......here's another old fart that thinks he knows everything in the world. Please accept my humble apologies oh great and wise sir, because my amount of flight time must completely be related to my intelligence and amount of common sense. God forbid someone actually get recognized for doing a good job!! What a crime that would be!!

Hope you're picking up on the sarcasm. Dumba$$.

 

[Occam's Razor]

It does encourage incompetence and laziness. All you've gotta do is sit over there and not kill anybody for about 3 to 4 years and boom.....you're gonna upgrade.

Wow! That's it? Don't "kill anybody" and you get to be a captain?

Cool!

I thought there was some sort of initial screening process before you got hired, and a list of bona fide occupational qualifications. I was under the impression that most airlines that use a seniority system had some sort of "probationary" period that you had to complete, and that throughout your career you were subjected to scrutiny. Do you have FOQA where you work?

I'm also glad to hear checkrides have been eliminated, and all you have to do is "not kill anybody" to upgrade. (I'm throwing those heavy-a$$ manuals away as soon as I figure out where I left them!)

You could be the $hittiest pilot ever, call in sick every other week, be a complete a$$hole to your crews, basically be the ultimate crappy employee and it doesn't matter. When your number is up, there you go.

Really? The Chief Pilots don't mind? ProStan doesn't have your phone number? There's no qualification program?

Is that the way it was at all the airlines you have worked for? My personal experience has been much different. I've seen plenty of pilots fired at my airline for being jerks.

All the senoirity advocates all say the same thing about a$$ kissing, etc. but the fact of the matter is, almost every other industry in the world has gotten by just fine for the last 200 years without it.

I understand the call centers in India are merit-based.

I've watched my father get by fine without it for 30 years of working at his job......he is now at the top of his profession. Why? Because he is good at what he does, is respected by his peers, and was the most qualified.

Ok. I watched my Dad thrive and succeed in a seniority-based system.

A draw?

There is nothing wrong with a merit based system, as long as it's done right.

Agree. But that's the rub, isn't it? Show me how to make it dweeb-proof. Show me how you can stop favoritism, bias, and cover-ups from permeating it. Show me how to keep it legitimate.

I hate the seniority system. It's there for one reason: to protect the dumbest, laziest, most inept motherf-ckers at the company.

I disagree. I think it's there to avoid all the worst subjective elements that come with a merit-based system. Pilots still have to measure-up.

 

[CapnVegetto]

Since I'm not sure how to fix quotes like you did, I'll do it this way.

Wow! That's it? Don't "kill anybody" and you get to be a captain?

Cool!

I thought there was some sort of initial screening process before you got hired, and a list of bona fide occupational qualifications. I was under the impression that most airlines that use a seniority system had some sort of "probationary" period that you had to complete, and that throughout your career you were subjected to scrutiny. Do you have FOQA where you work?

I'm also glad to hear checkrides have been eliminated, and all you have to do is "not kill anybody" to upgrade. (I'm throwing those heavy-a$$ manuals away as soon as I figure out where I left them!)

Valid points, but as you said, no system is perfect. Pro standards can only do something if you are reported. Most of the time, they slap you on the wrist, give you a PC, and send you on your way. When I worked at the airlines, a CRJ taxied into the mud at CID and got it stuck, the director of training started and taxied a DHC-8 out to the runway in DEN with the engine plugs in, I personally saw a guy taxi another CRJ into a baggage cart (completely his fault) and a buddy of mine flew with a guy that slammed a landing in so hard he blew BOTH sets of tires in PHL. I personally flew with one moron who, on the first landing he made with me, began to SLIP A F-ING CRJ. YOU DON'T SLIP A SWEPT WING AIRPLANE!!!! After admonishing the dumba$$, I called pro standards, nothing happened. I know for a fact that none of the above got fired, and only one had to do a PC. Where was the 'weeding out' process with these morons?

And don't talk to me about checkrides. If you can't pass a checkride where you have 8 or 9 practice runs beforehand, the exact same ride ungraded the day before, then the briefing before hand where they tell you exactly what is going to happen in exact order, then you need to be frying chickens at Popeyes for a living.


Really? The Chief Pilots don't mind? ProStan doesn't have your phone number? There's no qualification program?

Is that the way it was at all the airlines you have worked for? My personal experience has been much different. I've seen plenty of pilots fired at my airline for being jerks.

Good for your airline. I'm only speaking from experience. Again, I personally know one captain at my former airline that can't get out a sentence without using the 'f' word, is quite fond of the 'n' word to describe black people, and he still has a job.



I understand the call centers in India are merit-based.

Good for them. Your point?



Ok. I watched my Dad thrive and succeed in a seniority-based system.

A draw?

Sure. Works fine for some folks. I just don't agree with it. It just pi$$es me off to see airline guys that say if you're not in a seniority system, the only way to move up is to kiss a$$. That's bull$hit. I've witnessed it first hand. You say that to my father and he'll tear you a new one. He's got the same point of view as me.



Agree. But that's the rub, isn't it? Show me how to make it dweeb-proof. Show me how you can stop favoritism, bias, and cover-ups from permeating it. Show me how to keep it legitimate.

OK. Skyline's idea of a points system is good. Seniority is perfect for pay and perfect for schedule picking. Bad for promotions. Every single FO, every flight is given evaluations by captains on attitude, ability, leadership, skill, etc. Here's the kicker....NO NAMES ARE PLACED ON THE EVALUATIONS. The FO's are not allowed to see them. 1 Eval is filled out per trip, and sent into corporate with NO NAMES ON IT and records are kept by an impartial 'upgrade committee' who meets when upgrades are needed and makes the decisions. The only one who knows who's evaluations are who's is an impartial company employee who has no say in the process, he/she is just a record keeper. The highest scoring evaluations (that meet minimum requirements set by the company for flight time, time in type, longevity with the company, etc.) are then upgraded.


I disagree. I think it's there to avoid all the worst subjective elements that come with a merit-based system. Pilots still have to measure-up.

I just flew with way too many bad pilots who didn't need to be in the left seat to agree with the seniority system. Like I said, it's great for pay and scheduling. Bad for promotions. That's what I think anyway.

 

[fdxmd11pilot]

The Seniority system

I once worked at a life insurance company. I was hired in at a level, 2 levels below "officer". Then over time I became one. When I left, my job title was Assistant VP. At the same time that I was hired, another person was hired into an identical job, with the same pay grade, etc. Within 2 years that person had moved up the ladder significantly. I guess the fact that that person was sleeping with their direct supervisor didn't play a part.

When I came to the airlines, I realized that the promotion system was a little different. It didn't seem to matter if you were sleeping with the boss or not, you were in a seniority based system. Those who'd gotten there before you were senior to you. Pure and simple. That seniority is good for a number of things, but not all. Seniority is used for: 1) monthly line bidding, inclucing reserve line bidding; 2) vacation time-slot bidding; 3) aircraft and seat upgrades; 4) simulator scheduling; 5) new aircraft or seat training time/date slots; and 6) vacation buy-back policies (where the company asks pilots to sell their vacation back for cash, because the company does not have enough people for a particular a/c or seat. There might be a few more events that are seniority based, but I can't think of them right now.

Seniority does not effect: 1) where you park in the company's parking lot; 2) whose first in the chow line; 3) whose made a line check airman; 4) whose made a simulator instructor; 5) whose made regional or chief pilots; 6) whose the best and whose the worst guys to fly a long trip with. These events are either on a first come-first served system (as #'s 1 & 2 above), or by using the "good ole boys network" as in #'s 3, 4, and 5 above. As for #6 above, this is one of the most important issues we face as line pilots. If the other guy is difficult to fly with, it's going to be a very long 2 day trip. Conversely, if he's/she's a pleasure to fly with, then that 15 day trip is going to go by pretty fast.

I've rambled, and I appologize, but I'm a proponent of the seniority based system. You know what you're in for from the beginning and it's very rare when you see someone trying to screw their way to the top. The seniority system gives you many ways to meet your goals. If you're into quality of life, you can elect to bid to stay in a particular seat or aircraft that will maximize your (say) time at home, or in a particular city, or days off. If you're into $$$ you can bid a larger jet that will eat you up, but at the same time allow you to earn more money. There are all sorts of options that seniority brings. Nobody gets screwed by seniority, they just get what their seniority can hold.

 

[Skyline]

Screw to the top

I think that you could still develop a system that eliminates favoritism and allow for more flexibility for the pilot group. I would leave the pay the same for all types. Therefore if someone wanted the 777 they could have it earlier. You wouldn't have to take a pay hit if you were senior enough for the big ones but want to stay closer to home. It would all be based on a point or credit system. Employment longevity would still be rewarded but to a lessor degree.

Skyline

 

[Occam's Razor]

CapnVeg,

"Valid points, but as you said, no system is perfect."

I'm glad you agree. That is the basis of my argument...no system is perfect. Therefore, the system that eliminates the most unsavory variables is the best. I don't think it should be a surprise to you that all the airlines use a seniority-based system...even the non-union carriers. Why do you suppose that is?

"Pro standards can only do something if you are reported. Most of the time, they slap you on the wrist, give you a PC, and send you on your way."

1. I don't think you're qualified to quantify the percentage of ProStan cases that are successfully handled. Your experience is limited to your own airline, and I don't think you handled the ProStan cases there.
2. ProStan isn't the only method of policing a pilot group. I understand the Chief Pilots, Instructors, Check Airmen, and the FAA have a say in the process.

"When I worked at the airlines, a CRJ taxied into the mud at CID and got it stuck, the director of training started and taxied a DHC-8 out to the runway in DEN with the engine plugs in, I personally saw a guy taxi another CRJ into a baggage cart (completely his fault) and a buddy of mine flew with a guy that slammed a landing in so hard he blew BOTH sets of tires in PHL. I personally flew with one moron who, on the first landing he made with me, began to SLIP A F-ING CRJ. YOU DON'T SLIP A SWEPT WING AIRPLANE!!!! After admonishing the dumba$$, I called pro standards, nothing happened. I know for a fact that none of the above got fired, and only one had to do a PC. Where was the 'weeding out' process with these morons?"

I will concede that the airline that hired you hired a number of dorks. You had some bad personal experiences with some of them. Are you suggesting that merit-based operations don't have that problem? Perhaps you recall the untimely death of Senator Paul Wellstone at the hands of a "merit-based" captain.

I have it on pretty good authority that the major airlines (Pt 121 carriers) have a better accident record, by any measure, than other types of operations. I also know that all of them use seniority-based systems to upgrade pilots.

"And don't talk to me about checkrides."

Why not?

"If you can't pass a checkride where you have 8 or 9 practice runs beforehand, the exact same ride ungraded the day before, then the briefing before hand where they tell you exactly what is going to happen in exact order, then you need to be frying chickens at Popeyes for a living."

Agree. Good thing that's not the way it works at the majors. I've been a Check Airman for over 9-years, and your characterization of checkrides is incorrect. The new "CQ" format used at my airline makes all maneuvers "first look" (with jeopardy) during the Manuvers Validation ride. There is no warm-up. The LOE ("Line Oriented Evaluation") ride is not briefed, and has no warm-up. It is pass/fail.

As much as you don't think the checkrides given at the airlines are too tough....this might be a good time to bring up the safety record of the airlines again.

"Again, I personally know one captain at my former airline that can't get out a sentence without using the 'f' word, is quite fond of the 'n' word to describe black people, and he still has a job."

Ha! I know a guy that used to run a horseman's association that was named head of FEMA! No system is nitwit-proof! (I thought we agreed on that part?)

Me: "I understand the call centers in India are merit-based."

Good for them. Your point?

I was being subtle...

A lot of good jobs in America are finding their way overseas. Many of them from merit-based systems over here.

"You say that to my father and he'll tear you a new one. He's got the same point of view as me. "

I think I can kick your Dad's butt.

"OK. Skyline's idea of a points system is good. Seniority is perfect for pay and perfect for schedule picking. Bad for promotions. Every single FO, every flight is given evaluations by captains on attitude, ability, leadership, skill, etc. Here's the kicker....NO NAMES ARE PLACED ON THE EVALUATIONS. The FO's are not allowed to see them. 1 Eval is filled out per trip, and sent into corporate with NO NAMES ON IT and records are kept by an impartial 'upgrade committee' who meets when upgrades are needed and makes the decisions. The only one who knows who's evaluations are who's is an impartial company employee who has no say in the process, he/she is just a record keeper. The highest scoring evaluations (that meet minimum requirements set by the company for flight time, time in type, longevity with the company, etc.) are then upgraded. "

What happens to the jerks? The guys who use the "F" word and the "N" word? What happens if a pilot turns into a jerk once he/she upgrades? It looks like your system doesn't elminate jerks...it just keeps them in the right seat. How do you propose we police the captains?

"I just flew with way too many bad pilots who didn't need to be in the left seat to agree with the seniority system."

Hmmmm. I've flown with 2 bad pilots. One got fired for being a bad pilot, and the other was a captain that is retired now. (Ironically, he was a Chief Pilot...a position he was awarded based on merit, not seniority) I've only been doing the airline thing for 18-years though, so I don't have a lot of experience...

 

[CapnVegetto]

1. I don't think you're qualified to quantify the percentage of ProStan cases that are successfully handled. Your experience is limited to your own airline, and I don't think you handled the ProStan cases there.
2. ProStan isn't the only method of policing a pilot group. I understand the Chief Pilots, Instructors, Check Airmen, and the FAA have a say in the process.

Well, they didn't do much of a job at Mesa. Or maybe my standards are just different. I found it amusing that most guys were completely unable to figure out a fuel order without a release. One very senior (15+ years) guy I flew with was absolutely amazed one day at the fact that I could file a flight plan over the phone in 5 minutes. Come on......that's basic stuff.

"When I worked at the airlines, a CRJ taxied into the mud at CID and got it stuck, the director of training started and taxied a DHC-8 out to the runway in DEN with the engine plugs in, I personally saw a guy taxi another CRJ into a baggage cart (completely his fault) and a buddy of mine flew with a guy that slammed a landing in so hard he blew BOTH sets of tires in PHL. I personally flew with one moron who, on the first landing he made with me, began to SLIP A F-ING CRJ. YOU DON'T SLIP A SWEPT WING AIRPLANE!!!! After admonishing the dumba$$, I called pro standards, nothing happened. I know for a fact that none of the above got fired, and only one had to do a PC. Where was the 'weeding out' process with these morons?"

I will concede that the airline that hired you hired a number of dorks. You had some bad personal experiences with some of them. Are you suggesting that merit-based operations don't have that problem? Perhaps you recall the untimely death of Senator Paul Wellstone at the hands of a "merit-based" captain.

I have it on pretty good authority that the major airlines (Pt 121 carriers) have a better accident record, by any measure, than other types of operations. I also know that all of them use seniority-based systems to upgrade pilots.

Sort of right. Pure part 91 corporate ops have a better safety record than airlines. 135 ops have a worse one.

"And don't talk to me about checkrides."

Why not?

"If you can't pass a checkride where you have 8 or 9 practice runs beforehand, the exact same ride ungraded the day before, then the briefing before hand where they tell you exactly what is going to happen in exact order, then you need to be frying chickens at Popeyes for a living."

Agree. Good thing that's not the way it works at the majors. I've been a Check Airman for over 9-years, and your characterization of checkrides is incorrect. The new "CQ" format used at my airline makes all maneuvers "first look" (with jeopardy) during the Manuvers Validation ride. There is no warm-up. The LOE ("Line Oriented Evaluation") ride is not briefed, and has no warm-up. It is pass/fail.

As much as you don't think the checkrides given at the airlines are too tough....this might be a good time to bring up the safety record of the airlines again.

I'd love to know who you work for. The United and USAir guys in my new hire class related to us how EASY training was there and how if you couldn't pass it, you were an idiot. Bravo to you guys for upping the standards a bit. I don't know anything about a CQ system, so I'll leave you with that. How many guys wash out of training there? When I finished my training, I couldn't believe that there were actually people failing it. It was easy. The type ride was exactly the same except for having to do circling approach and sitting in the other seat.

[/B]"Again, I personally know one captain at my former airline that can't get out a sentence without using the 'f' word, is quite fond of the 'n' word to describe black people, and he still has a job."

Ha! I know a guy that used to run a horseman's association that was named head of FEMA! No system is nitwit-proof! (I thought we agreed on that part?)

Me: "I understand the call centers in India are merit-based."

Good for them. Your point?

I was being subtle...

A lot of good jobs in America are finding their way overseas. Many of them from merit-based systems over here.

"You say that to my father and he'll tear you a new one. He's got the same point of view as me. "

I think I can kick your Dad's butt.

I will assume that you were just kidding. You probably could, seeing as how he's almost 57 years old and has 2 artificial hips. Of course, you'd have to go through me first, and I'd break your neck.

"OK. Skyline's idea of a points system is good. Seniority is perfect for pay and perfect for schedule picking. Bad for promotions. Every single FO, every flight is given evaluations by captains on attitude, ability, leadership, skill, etc. Here's the kicker....NO NAMES ARE PLACED ON THE EVALUATIONS. The FO's are not allowed to see them. 1 Eval is filled out per trip, and sent into corporate with NO NAMES ON IT and records are kept by an impartial 'upgrade committee' who meets when upgrades are needed and makes the decisions. The only one who knows who's evaluations are who's is an impartial company employee who has no say in the process, he/she is just a record keeper. The highest scoring evaluations (that meet minimum requirements set by the company for flight time, time in type, longevity with the company, etc.) are then upgraded. "

What happens to the jerks? The guys who use the "F" word and the "N" word? What happens if a pilot turns into a jerk once he/she upgrades? It looks like your system doesn't elminate jerks...it just keeps them in the right seat. How do you propose we police the captains?

See the above evaluation.......what was the first characteristic I listed on there? ATTITUDE. Some how I don't think an f-ing 'n' word calling guy will get very high marks in that area. What happens when pilot turns to a jerk when he/she upgrades? Same thing that happens in a seniority system. Someone slipped through the cracks. The only difference here is that you have a system that is designed to screen a lot of the jerks out, instead of just sending them on their way when their number is up. How do we police the captains? You mean they're not policed in a seniority system? Huh?

"I just flew with way too many bad pilots who didn't need to be in the left seat to agree with the seniority system."

Hmmmm. I've flown with 2 bad pilots. One got fired for being a bad pilot, and the other was a captain that is retired now. (Ironically, he was a Chief Pilot...a position he was awarded based on merit, not seniority) I've only been doing the airline thing for 18-years though, so I don't have a lot of experience...

Wow, 18 years? If it ain't broke, don't fix it, huh? Well I got news for ya, it's broke. Lateral moves are impossible with a seniority system. Wages and working conditions are down. In any other industry, or in corporate aviation for that matter, when your job starts sucking, you take your experience and move to a job that doesn't suck. At an airline, when your job starts sucking, you either suck it up, leave the industry altogether, start over somewhere else, or screw the junior guys to get yours. I'm sorry, but there are 1000 guys with 18 years at the airlines that think they know everything. Things change. Times change. The industry has changed. Airlines no longer get the cream of the pilot crop......it's no longer the best job out there. 20 years ago, everybody dreamed of flying a 747 across the pond one day. The military was airline training ground. Everybody wanted to work there, so you got the best of the best. Now there are furloughs, bankrupcies, greedy managment, defaulted pensions, crappy work rules, crappy pay, and lousy schedules. You have pilot factories in FL pumping out commercial certificates by the hundreds. Airline pilots, many with a lot of seniority, are quitting the industry altogether. Those same 'cream of the crop' military guys from days of old are now scraping any possible way they can to save their pensions. Are there plenty of apps on file everywhere? Sure. But they're all the same group of apps from the 5000 furloughed guys that don't know how to do anything else.

It's time to overhaul the industry. It's time to change the way things are done. You can't count on everyone to be 'the best' anymore. Those same super sharp military guys are staying in the military or finding work elsewhere. They're being replaced by RJ captains from pilot factories. Some are great pilots! Some are douchebags. But one thing is for sure, they're not the top of the mountain anymore. There is no more $300K a year DC-10 captain job at the end of the rainbow anymore. I'm so happy that you've been there for 18 years, I'd give you a cookie. I'm majorly impressed. But it doesn't matter if something is 1 year old or 800 years old. If it's inferior, it needs to be changed......and I believe it is inferior. If Ben Franklin showed up wearing white socks, knickers, and a grey curly wig we'd all point and laugh at him. "I've been wearing this for 200 years!!" he'd say. So what? Times have changed. Now he looks like a jacka$$. See my point?

(Reply was too long, had to delete some of your quotes)

 

[Flyboyz]

I think the senority system should be done away with. Studies have shown that job statisfaction lies with many other factors besides just pay. QOL issues play a major roll as well. I think you could do it on a point system. As you gain time you will build points. You would build points for longevity as well. Everyone should be trained as a captain at their first recurrent date. Skill and ability would gain points as well. Then when it comes time to choose Bases, pay, Capt or FO it would be done on the point system. You could choose to work more days in a month but be at your top base choice. Perhaps you would aim for a quick left seat but take a pay hit. I think it would alow more freedom and people could get more of what they wanted instead of our current system on only the top getting most of the good stuff. I also think that Captains should fly as an FO for one bid a year.

Skyline

Great idea and outside the box approach. Way to think. The current system is antiquated however we have been dealing with it for a long time and would be difficult to change. However, it could be changed and it will take time.

Good job Skyline

 

[waka]

to review; merit based system + 100's or 1000's of pilots = la la land. it will never work.

flying an airplane is not a business. minimum standards are time tested, revised and established and, if they're met, that is enough. being a pilot has absolutely nothing to do with how many of your sick days you use. if you think it's lazy, tough. they are your days per most contracts. don't use them and you're throwing your compensation away.


flying has nothing to do with sales or productivity. in other jobs involving sales or productivity, merit works. it will never work in flying the line. the only time that you might go the extra mile is during an abnormal or emergency situation. any other time you're "taking one for the team" usually involves flying airplanes that should be in mx or going beyond flight/duty, busting some kind of minimum or standard etc...

pass your rides and get the airplane from A to B per the standards, you're a stellar employee. longevity should be rewarded.