Senority System

Skyline

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I think the senority system should be done away with. Studies have shown that job statisfaction lies with many other factors besides just pay. QOL issues play a major roll as well. I think you could do it on a point system. As you gain time you will build points. You would build points for longevity as well. Everyone should be trained as a captain at their first recurrent date. Skill and ability would gain points as well. Then when it comes time to choose Bases, pay, Capt or FO it would be done on the point system. You could choose to work more days in a month but be at your top base choice. Perhaps you would aim for a quick left seat but take a pay hit. I think it would alow more freedom and people could get more of what they wanted instead of our current system on only the top getting most of the good stuff. I also think that Captains should fly as an FO for one bid a year.

Skyline
 

rvsm410

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done all the time in other business groups

Spooky 1 said:
Who will be the judge that "skill and ability"?
Its doable, other professions set up peer groups to evaluate performane on a rating system of questions, which are submitted to a managment review team for input...your performance is based on standards and how you stack with the rest of your department...big shift of thinking though
 

Skyline

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Skill and Ability

I suppose you could use test scores and check ride grades. The current system is gauged by the lowest common denominator. Where is the incentive to perform? It also would be nice to open up other jobs to pilots like: crew scheduling or dispatch. In the military pilots preform a variety of jobs besides fly. It gets old sitting in the tube day after day. The current system is antiquated. If we aren't going to enjoy huge pay and days off then they should rearrange the system to allow for more job satisfaction.

Skyline
 

Spooky 1

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Skyline said:
I suppose you could use test scores and check ride grades. The current system is gauged by the lowest common denominator. Where is the incentive to perform? It also would be nice to open up other jobs to pilots like: crew scheduling or dispatch. In the military pilots preform a variety of jobs besides fly. It gets old sitting in the tube day after day. The current system is antiquated. If we aren't going to enjoy huge pay and days off then they should rearrange the system to allow for more job satisfaction.

Skyline
I believe most if not all check rides (recurrent, initial, proficiency) are either pass or fail. Obviously the written test could be scored to grade value, but
the actual sim check would be very subjective at best. Do you have personnel experience as a check airman, TCE, APM? If so I am sure would agree this would be a difficult task at best.

I suspect that this is another one of your ideas that would mitigate your lack of progress in this chosen field? One of the most dangerous flaws that would come from this approach is competive flying. I can get into that airport, I can handle those winds, I can do it better than the next pilot, just watch. A sure recipe for disaster IMO.
 

Skyline

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Testy

The current system is no better. Why the chief pilot of AA crashed. A system would have to be developed and I think it would work. I don't get your connection to completing the flights? I don't understand how my idea would change common sense and safety.

SkyLine
 

Spooky 1

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Skyline said:
The current system is no better. Why the chief pilot of AA crashed. A system would have to be developed and I think it would work. I don't get your connection to completing the flights? I don't understand how my idea would change common sense and safety.

SkyLine
I do not think you will find any reference or supporting data in the Little Rock accident that would somehow sustain this concept. What if your last check ride was a barely pass, what then? This is a poor idea and would only serve to further divide an already very divided pilot population. I guess if you feel that are so good that you naturally accelerate to the top of the list, then maybe there is some merit for you. I am just average so I kinda like the longevity concept.

"I don't understnd how my idea would change comon sense and safety." That is the problem here, you don't get it and probably never will.
 

Skyline

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Hey

Hey man,


The only people who would have a problem with this are senior Captains. They would loose some of their gains. The current system has the little dictaters assuming that all is well while 2/3 of the company is not so happy. If the pay and days off are gone then we need to look at other ways to make the job less of a hardship.

Skyline
 

Mr Wu

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The seniority system is the only way of being unbiased. Any time you bring a human into the evaluation process you will have to deal with their prejudices. Seniority if the only fair way to do it, although base seniority should have some weight.
 

Spooky 1

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Skyline said:
Hey man,


The only people who would have a problem with this are senior Captains. They would loose some of their gains. The current system has the little dictaters assuming that all is well while 2/3 of the company is not so happy. If the pay and days off are gone then we need to look at other ways to make the job less of a hardship.

Skyline
Let me get this straight. The top third of the seniority list is made up of little dictators??? You are a trouble soul and perhaps you should look somewhere else for a career that is more in tune with your frame of mind. BTW I am not on any seniority list at this time.
 

Geronimo4497

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Skyline said:
I suppose you could use test scores and check ride grades. The current system is gauged by the lowest common denominator. Where is the incentive to perform? It also would be nice to open up other jobs to pilots like: crew scheduling or dispatch. In the military pilots preform a variety of jobs besides fly. It gets old sitting in the tube day after day. The current system is antiquated. If we aren't going to enjoy huge pay and days off then they should rearrange the system to allow for more job satisfaction.

Skyline
My *non-flame* observations:

I may not be a regional guy, but in reality, the corporate/frax world can be much worse some days. If it is getting old in "the tube" day after day, do all of us a favor, and look for another job! I'm not trying to bust your balls here, but you must be a real joy to fly with after being on the road for 3 or 4 days. Heck, you may be the best pilot out there, but skills alone never meant success in this business. The right demeanor has always played a HUGE role in job satisfaction and praise.
The whole airline industry is in turmoil right now. As much as I wish we could choose to only live and work during the good times, it is just not going to happen. Things will get better down the line. In current times, however, we all need to do our jobs and have some FUN outside of work.
 

avbug

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Let me get this straight. The top third of the seniority list is made up of little dictators??? You are a trouble soul and perhaps you should look somewhere else for a career that is more in tune with your frame of mind. BTW I am not on any seniority list at this time.
Skyline is already looking elsewhere, and has decided he's a failure in this profession. He's posted at great length expounding on that, already.

His aim now is to stir up trouble and try, in some small way, to make everyone feel as he does.

I also think that Captains should fly as an FO for one bid a year.
Captains already have a lifetime of experience as F/O...that's how they got to be captain.

Skyline is upset because he feels the hill is too tall to climb. He wants someone to pull the hill down so he doesn't have to work so hard.
 

Ralgha

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I agree that the senority system sucks. It was invented by someone who was too lazy to create a truely rewarding system, and it rewards the lazy, the stupid, and the unmotivated. I've flown with more than one captain who knew less about the airplane than I did, and this after I'd only been flying it for six months! This is not to say I think I should be captain. If I were asked today to upgrade, I would turn it down since I don't feel ready to be captain yet. I think a merit based system of advancement would reward those who work hard, rather than those who just sit in the seat like a bump on a log.

However, I don't think it should be implemented to affect all pilots, as it would be unfair to those who built their life around the antiquated seniority system. Current pilots should still operate under the lazy style, any new hires would operate under the revamped one, but never to gain a higher seniority than those who were already there. Through attrition, the entire pilot base would gradually change over to the better system.

Notice that my idea wouldn't benefit me unless I switched airlines, and I still wouldn't advance much faster under it since all the existing pilots woul be shoo ins.
 
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FlyChicaga

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If you think that going away from a seniority-based system will somehow help move those of us who take the job seriously up the ladder, you are sorely mistaken. Look at any other job out there. It's all who you know, or who you're on your knees for. All politics. At least here, with the seniority system, you don't have to kiss-ass to move up the line. You just need to serve your time. I like this better, because doing the job right is a sign of self-respect, not "I need to get mine."

It really sucks to see someone who doesn't care about the job, and just does enough to get by, move up while you still sit. But would you rather see the same person move up, in a non-seniority system, because they were drinking buddies at Riddle together? I saw that stuff happen at my parents jobs, and I'm glad I don't need to put up with it. Most people who want to do away with the seniority system have never worked under the alternative for any great period of time.

The problem is not the system: It's the industry. Good jobs are making way for crappy ones, and those who really had it made are being forced out to start over making $20,000 a year. If we would stick together, and work in union to help create decent paying jobs, and job security, we wouldn't be in this predicament. Any type of security and decent QOL for this career is a long time off, however. You can't achieve anything when you have people flocking to Go-Jets and Freedom-type airlines.

I really think that there is a lacking of the unity and maturity needed to tackle the problems surrounding our current system. So we are all stuck, like Skyline, unhappy and looking for other alternatives than fixing the big problem: Solidifying this career in terms of pay, benefits, and job security. This job could get much worse moving away from the seniority based system. Look how bad it is now, with the undercutting, backstabbing, and general "me me me" attitudes with this system. Imagine if we didn't have it!
 

Sam Snead

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I'm heavily in favor of seeing the seniority framework radically changed.

But, in the same way the electoral college plagues the American voting process, seniority will continue to prevail.

First, those WITH seniority have the power to keep the system. Second, nobody will ever be able to agree on how a merit-based system should work.

*Sigh*
 

Benhuntn

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Learn to spell senority!!!!! Seniority!!!!!
 

Skyline

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Avbug

Hi Avbug !!

Great to hear from you again.

avbug said:
Skyline is already looking elsewhere, and has decided he's a failure in this profession. He's posted at great length expounding on that, already.

His aim now is to stir up trouble and try, in some small way, to make everyone feel as he does.



Captains already have a lifetime of experience as F/O...that's how they got to be captain.

Skyline is upset because he feels the hill is too tall to climb. He wants someone to pull the hill down so he doesn't have to work so hard.
I am not trying to stir up trouble. I don't like the seniority system. I feel that it harbors incompetence and hurts moral over all. The future of aviation is going to be different Perhaps it is time to take a look at changing to work rules to the greater benefit of pilots as a whole and not just for the lucky few who lived long enough to make it to the top rungs of the seniority list. I realize that it will probably not change but I think it needs to be said.

In addition to your reference to your statement about "The hill is to tall to climb" my response is that the hill is growing faster than most of us can keep up with. In other words minimums are rising faster than I can respond to it. Avbug you must be a single man without family responsibilities. It is very difficult to pull up stakes and follow the blowing winds of this career with a wife and 3 kids (soon to be 4) in tow. Every setback means starting over at punishingly low wages. I just can't do it and be a good father and husband anymore. I am still hoping for a miracle however.

Skyline
 

KeroseneSnorter

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Safety would be greatly reduced.

Not because of the way a merit based system is supposed to work, but because of the way a merit based system does work.

It would quickly be reduced to who you know is the main factor in making Captain. ANYBODY can be failed very very easily in a sim check. You can make the ace of the base look like a bumbling idiot inside 3 minutes in a sim check, and have it appear to be a perfectly normal checkride.

Mkae no mistake, a couple of years and the system would be so jacked up with all the a$$ kissers in the left seat.

Ever thought how many times you have seen a Captain hold the flight until he/she gets the fuel they want? How many times have you seen a Captain question the load and W/B? How about refusing an aircraft based on maint. issues?

What do you think would happen if everybody was so terrified of losing their seat if they even questioned any of the above? You do not really believe that a bean counter who knows nothing about flying is going to watchdog the entire fleet on a day in day out basis do you?

I have been back at the bottom of a seniority list 4 times now. Some because of furloughs and some because of getting better jobs. But I do know that I would have been fired several times on the "merit" based system. Why? Because I have told the company/maint/dispatcher/gate agent..whatever on various occasions to "fix it" or find some other bozo to go kill themselves.

How many checks and balances do you really think will exist when the dude making the command decisions is terrified what some bean counter in an office 600 miles away will think?
 

Skyline

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Seniority

OK, Lets just keep the current check ride system the same and focus on the point style bidding system. Then everyone would be free to choose just what they wanted. Perhaps its money and they would fly 27 days a month from the most hated base as an FO. Maybe you want a quick upgrade and can bid for a bad base and lower pay to get it. Others could have QOL but sacrifice in upgrade and have to spend some days in the office working on other things like scheduling. It would be a holistic approached aimed at getting everyone a little of what they want instead of just a few getting it all.

Skyline
 

KeroseneSnorter

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Skyline said:
OK, Lets just keep the current check ride system the same and focus on the point style bidding system. Then everyone would be free to choose just what they wanted. Perhaps its money and they would fly 27 days a month from the most hated base as an FO. Maybe you want a quick upgrade and can bid for a bad base and lower pay to get it. Others could have QOL but sacrifice in upgrade and have to spend some days in the office working on other things like scheduling. It would be a holistic approached aimed at getting everyone a little of what they want instead of just a few getting it all.

Skyline
How on earth would a company using a system like that be able to keep up with the required training and currency requirements? In a corporate flight department that may be feasible. When you start talking about 500 airplane fleets and 6000 to 10,000 pilots, something like that becomes a scheduling nightmare.

I am not sure exactly what QOL issues that you have the most problems with, but I have been on both the top and bottom of seniority lists over the years and when you get down to it, there is not that much difference between the two. Sure reserve bites, and there are cases where folks get stuck on reserve for too long. So a system to alternate reserve months between the lower part of the list, one on one off, might be feasible. But for the most part, a line holder is a line holder. If you think that being senior makes that much difference, you have not been senior anywhere yet!

Even senior, you still miss most of the holidays, birthdays, cookouts etc. I could hold Christmas off, but had to work Thanksgiving, or could get thanksgiving, but have to work Christmas.

Flying is flying, it involves long periods away from home. It is the nature of the beast. When you operate a vehicle that travels thousands of miles on one tank of gas, you have to expect being thousands of miles from home when you land! Some places have better schedules than others, but it sounds like you are looking for something that resembles a 9 to 5 job, that just isn't possible when you operate jets for a living.

You mention sacrificing upgrade for QOL. Many pilots already do this. I have seen dozen of guys pass on upgrade for QOL purposes and wait until they can hold a line as Captain. Not so much at the regionals because the pay sucks so bad. But at the majors, some of the most senior guys are F/O's by choice just to hold a certian base or line of days off.

You want to fix many of the problems that you speak of? Get rid of the crap pay. Doing that is much easier than trying to redefine how an airline runs itself from scheduling to training to fleet managment. Have you ever toured crew scheduling and aircraft tracking at a large carrier? Having a pilot fill in for scheduling would cause a tremendous clusterflop. Even tracking 25 airplanes and where they need to be for the schedule, while making sure they get to where they need to be for the maintenance will make your head throb.

As it stands now, crew scheduling is your best friend!! If they ever truly worked out a purely efficient schedule, they could fire the bottom quarter of the list and never be short of pilots. This is true of every airline I have ever worked at!
 
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