Senority System

[Skyline]

I think the senority system should be done away with. Studies have shown that job statisfaction lies with many other factors besides just pay. QOL issues play a major roll as well. I think you could do it on a point system. As you gain time you will build points. You would build points for longevity as well. Everyone should be trained as a captain at their first recurrent date. Skill and ability would gain points as well. Then when it comes time to choose Bases, pay, Capt or FO it would be done on the point system. You could choose to work more days in a month but be at your top base choice. Perhaps you would aim for a quick left seat but take a pay hit. I think it would alow more freedom and people could get more of what they wanted instead of our current system on only the top getting most of the good stuff. I also think that Captains should fly as an FO for one bid a year.

Skyline

 

[Spooky 1]

Who will be the judge that "skill and ability"?

 

[rvsm410]

done all the time in other business groups

Who will be the judge that "skill and ability"?

Its doable, other professions set up peer groups to evaluate performane on a rating system of questions, which are submitted to a managment review team for input...your performance is based on standards and how you stack with the rest of your department...big shift of thinking though

 

[Skyline]

Skill and Ability

I suppose you could use test scores and check ride grades. The current system is gauged by the lowest common denominator. Where is the incentive to perform? It also would be nice to open up other jobs to pilots like: crew scheduling or dispatch. In the military pilots preform a variety of jobs besides fly. It gets old sitting in the tube day after day. The current system is antiquated. If we aren't going to enjoy huge pay and days off then they should rearrange the system to allow for more job satisfaction.

Skyline

 

[Spooky 1]

I suppose you could use test scores and check ride grades. The current system is gauged by the lowest common denominator. Where is the incentive to perform? It also would be nice to open up other jobs to pilots like: crew scheduling or dispatch. In the military pilots preform a variety of jobs besides fly. It gets old sitting in the tube day after day. The current system is antiquated. If we aren't going to enjoy huge pay and days off then they should rearrange the system to allow for more job satisfaction.

Skyline

I believe most if not all check rides (recurrent, initial, proficiency) are either pass or fail. Obviously the written test could be scored to grade value, but
the actual sim check would be very subjective at best. Do you have personnel experience as a check airman, TCE, APM? If so I am sure would agree this would be a difficult task at best.

I suspect that this is another one of your ideas that would mitigate your lack of progress in this chosen field? One of the most dangerous flaws that would come from this approach is competive flying. I can get into that airport, I can handle those winds, I can do it better than the next pilot, just watch. A sure recipe for disaster IMO.

 

[Skyline]

Testy

The current system is no better. Why the chief pilot of AA crashed. A system would have to be developed and I think it would work. I don't get your connection to completing the flights? I don't understand how my idea would change common sense and safety.

SkyLine

 

[Spooky 1]

The current system is no better. Why the chief pilot of AA crashed. A system would have to be developed and I think it would work. I don't get your connection to completing the flights? I don't understand how my idea would change common sense and safety.

SkyLine

I do not think you will find any reference or supporting data in the Little Rock accident that would somehow sustain this concept. What if your last check ride was a barely pass, what then? This is a poor idea and would only serve to further divide an already very divided pilot population. I guess if you feel that are so good that you naturally accelerate to the top of the list, then maybe there is some merit for you. I am just average so I kinda like the longevity concept.

"I don't understnd how my idea would change comon sense and safety." That is the problem here, you don't get it and probably never will.

 

[Skyline]

Hey

Hey man,


The only people who would have a problem with this are senior Captains. They would loose some of their gains. The current system has the little dictaters assuming that all is well while 2/3 of the company is not so happy. If the pay and days off are gone then we need to look at other ways to make the job less of a hardship.

Skyline

 

[Mr Wu]

The seniority system is the only way of being unbiased. Any time you bring a human into the evaluation process you will have to deal with their prejudices. Seniority if the only fair way to do it, although base seniority should have some weight.

 

[Spooky 1]

Hey man,


The only people who would have a problem with this are senior Captains. They would loose some of their gains. The current system has the little dictaters assuming that all is well while 2/3 of the company is not so happy. If the pay and days off are gone then we need to look at other ways to make the job less of a hardship.

Skyline

Let me get this straight. The top third of the seniority list is made up of little dictators??? You are a trouble soul and perhaps you should look somewhere else for a career that is more in tune with your frame of mind. BTW I am not on any seniority list at this time.

 

[Geronimo4497]

I suppose you could use test scores and check ride grades. The current system is gauged by the lowest common denominator. Where is the incentive to perform? It also would be nice to open up other jobs to pilots like: crew scheduling or dispatch. In the military pilots preform a variety of jobs besides fly. It gets old sitting in the tube day after day. The current system is antiquated. If we aren't going to enjoy huge pay and days off then they should rearrange the system to allow for more job satisfaction.

Skyline

My *non-flame* observations:

I may not be a regional guy, but in reality, the corporate/frax world can be much worse some days. If it is getting old in "the tube" day after day, do all of us a favor, and look for another job! I'm not trying to bust your balls here, but you must be a real joy to fly with after being on the road for 3 or 4 days. Heck, you may be the best pilot out there, but skills alone never meant success in this business. The right demeanor has always played a HUGE role in job satisfaction and praise.
The whole airline industry is in turmoil right now. As much as I wish we could choose to only live and work during the good times, it is just not going to happen. Things will get better down the line. In current times, however, we all need to do our jobs and have some FUN outside of work.

 

[avbug]

Let me get this straight. The top third of the seniority list is made up of little dictators??? You are a trouble soul and perhaps you should look somewhere else for a career that is more in tune with your frame of mind. BTW I am not on any seniority list at this time.

Skyline is already looking elsewhere, and has decided he's a failure in this profession. He's posted at great length expounding on that, already.

His aim now is to stir up trouble and try, in some small way, to make everyone feel as he does.

I also think that Captains should fly as an FO for one bid a year.

Captains already have a lifetime of experience as F/O...that's how they got to be captain.

Skyline is upset because he feels the hill is too tall to climb. He wants someone to pull the hill down so he doesn't have to work so hard.

 

[Ralgha]

I agree that the senority system sucks. It was invented by someone who was too lazy to create a truely rewarding system, and it rewards the lazy, the stupid, and the unmotivated. I've flown with more than one captain who knew less about the airplane than I did, and this after I'd only been flying it for six months! This is not to say I think I should be captain. If I were asked today to upgrade, I would turn it down since I don't feel ready to be captain yet. I think a merit based system of advancement would reward those who work hard, rather than those who just sit in the seat like a bump on a log.

However, I don't think it should be implemented to affect all pilots, as it would be unfair to those who built their life around the antiquated seniority system. Current pilots should still operate under the lazy style, any new hires would operate under the revamped one, but never to gain a higher seniority than those who were already there. Through attrition, the entire pilot base would gradually change over to the better system.

Notice that my idea wouldn't benefit me unless I switched airlines, and I still wouldn't advance much faster under it since all the existing pilots woul be shoo ins.

 

[FlyChicaga]

If you think that going away from a seniority-based system will somehow help move those of us who take the job seriously up the ladder, you are sorely mistaken. Look at any other job out there. It's all who you know, or who you're on your knees for. All politics. At least here, with the seniority system, you don't have to kiss-ass to move up the line. You just need to serve your time. I like this better, because doing the job right is a sign of self-respect, not "I need to get mine."

It really sucks to see someone who doesn't care about the job, and just does enough to get by, move up while you still sit. But would you rather see the same person move up, in a non-seniority system, because they were drinking buddies at Riddle together? I saw that stuff happen at my parents jobs, and I'm glad I don't need to put up with it. Most people who want to do away with the seniority system have never worked under the alternative for any great period of time.

The problem is not the system: It's the industry. Good jobs are making way for crappy ones, and those who really had it made are being forced out to start over making $20,000 a year. If we would stick together, and work in union to help create decent paying jobs, and job security, we wouldn't be in this predicament. Any type of security and decent QOL for this career is a long time off, however. You can't achieve anything when you have people flocking to Go-Jets and Freedom-type airlines.

I really think that there is a lacking of the unity and maturity needed to tackle the problems surrounding our current system. So we are all stuck, like Skyline, unhappy and looking for other alternatives than fixing the big problem: Solidifying this career in terms of pay, benefits, and job security. This job could get much worse moving away from the seniority based system. Look how bad it is now, with the undercutting, backstabbing, and general "me me me" attitudes with this system. Imagine if we didn't have it!

 

[Sam Snead]

I'm heavily in favor of seeing the seniority framework radically changed.

But, in the same way the electoral college plagues the American voting process, seniority will continue to prevail.

First, those WITH seniority have the power to keep the system. Second, nobody will ever be able to agree on how a merit-based system should work.

*Sigh*

 

[Benhuntn]

Learn to spell senority!!!!! Seniority!!!!!

 

[Skyline]

Avbug

Hi Avbug !!

Great to hear from you again.

Skyline is already looking elsewhere, and has decided he's a failure in this profession. He's posted at great length expounding on that, already.

His aim now is to stir up trouble and try, in some small way, to make everyone feel as he does.



Captains already have a lifetime of experience as F/O...that's how they got to be captain.

Skyline is upset because he feels the hill is too tall to climb. He wants someone to pull the hill down so he doesn't have to work so hard.

I am not trying to stir up trouble. I don't like the seniority system. I feel that it harbors incompetence and hurts moral over all. The future of aviation is going to be different Perhaps it is time to take a look at changing to work rules to the greater benefit of pilots as a whole and not just for the lucky few who lived long enough to make it to the top rungs of the seniority list. I realize that it will probably not change but I think it needs to be said.

In addition to your reference to your statement about "The hill is to tall to climb" my response is that the hill is growing faster than most of us can keep up with. In other words minimums are rising faster than I can respond to it. Avbug you must be a single man without family responsibilities. It is very difficult to pull up stakes and follow the blowing winds of this career with a wife and 3 kids (soon to be 4) in tow. Every setback means starting over at punishingly low wages. I just can't do it and be a good father and husband anymore. I am still hoping for a miracle however.

Skyline

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Safety would be greatly reduced.

Not because of the way a merit based system is supposed to work, but because of the way a merit based system does work.

It would quickly be reduced to who you know is the main factor in making Captain. ANYBODY can be failed very very easily in a sim check. You can make the ace of the base look like a bumbling idiot inside 3 minutes in a sim check, and have it appear to be a perfectly normal checkride.

Mkae no mistake, a couple of years and the system would be so jacked up with all the a$$ kissers in the left seat.

Ever thought how many times you have seen a Captain hold the flight until he/she gets the fuel they want? How many times have you seen a Captain question the load and W/B? How about refusing an aircraft based on maint. issues?

What do you think would happen if everybody was so terrified of losing their seat if they even questioned any of the above? You do not really believe that a bean counter who knows nothing about flying is going to watchdog the entire fleet on a day in day out basis do you?

I have been back at the bottom of a seniority list 4 times now. Some because of furloughs and some because of getting better jobs. But I do know that I would have been fired several times on the "merit" based system. Why? Because I have told the company/maint/dispatcher/gate agent..whatever on various occasions to "fix it" or find some other bozo to go kill themselves.

How many checks and balances do you really think will exist when the dude making the command decisions is terrified what some bean counter in an office 600 miles away will think?

 

[Skyline]

Seniority

OK, Lets just keep the current check ride system the same and focus on the point style bidding system. Then everyone would be free to choose just what they wanted. Perhaps its money and they would fly 27 days a month from the most hated base as an FO. Maybe you want a quick upgrade and can bid for a bad base and lower pay to get it. Others could have QOL but sacrifice in upgrade and have to spend some days in the office working on other things like scheduling. It would be a holistic approached aimed at getting everyone a little of what they want instead of just a few getting it all.

Skyline

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

OK, Lets just keep the current check ride system the same and focus on the point style bidding system. Then everyone would be free to choose just what they wanted. Perhaps its money and they would fly 27 days a month from the most hated base as an FO. Maybe you want a quick upgrade and can bid for a bad base and lower pay to get it. Others could have QOL but sacrifice in upgrade and have to spend some days in the office working on other things like scheduling. It would be a holistic approached aimed at getting everyone a little of what they want instead of just a few getting it all.

Skyline

How on earth would a company using a system like that be able to keep up with the required training and currency requirements? In a corporate flight department that may be feasible. When you start talking about 500 airplane fleets and 6000 to 10,000 pilots, something like that becomes a scheduling nightmare.

I am not sure exactly what QOL issues that you have the most problems with, but I have been on both the top and bottom of seniority lists over the years and when you get down to it, there is not that much difference between the two. Sure reserve bites, and there are cases where folks get stuck on reserve for too long. So a system to alternate reserve months between the lower part of the list, one on one off, might be feasible. But for the most part, a line holder is a line holder. If you think that being senior makes that much difference, you have not been senior anywhere yet!

Even senior, you still miss most of the holidays, birthdays, cookouts etc. I could hold Christmas off, but had to work Thanksgiving, or could get thanksgiving, but have to work Christmas.

Flying is flying, it involves long periods away from home. It is the nature of the beast. When you operate a vehicle that travels thousands of miles on one tank of gas, you have to expect being thousands of miles from home when you land! Some places have better schedules than others, but it sounds like you are looking for something that resembles a 9 to 5 job, that just isn't possible when you operate jets for a living.

You mention sacrificing upgrade for QOL. Many pilots already do this. I have seen dozen of guys pass on upgrade for QOL purposes and wait until they can hold a line as Captain. Not so much at the regionals because the pay sucks so bad. But at the majors, some of the most senior guys are F/O's by choice just to hold a certian base or line of days off.

You want to fix many of the problems that you speak of? Get rid of the crap pay. Doing that is much easier than trying to redefine how an airline runs itself from scheduling to training to fleet managment. Have you ever toured crew scheduling and aircraft tracking at a large carrier? Having a pilot fill in for scheduling would cause a tremendous clusterflop. Even tracking 25 airplanes and where they need to be for the schedule, while making sure they get to where they need to be for the maintenance will make your head throb.

As it stands now, crew scheduling is your best friend!! If they ever truly worked out a purely efficient schedule, they could fire the bottom quarter of the list and never be short of pilots. This is true of every airline I have ever worked at!

 

[BE200Driver]

Where is the incentive to perform? It also would be nice to open up other jobs to pilots like: crew scheduling or dispatch. In the military pilots preform a variety of jobs besides fly. It gets old sitting in the tube day after day. The current system is antiquated. If we aren't going to enjoy huge pay and days off then they should rearrange the system to allow for more job satisfaction.

Skyline

Anything else you want?

 

[Ralgha]

You guys haven't even tried to think of a way that a non-longevity based senority system could work, you just shoot it down immediately, just like any other proposed change that doesn't exist at another airline perceived to be "better". No wonder this industry is going down the toilet.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

You guys haven't even tried to think of a way that a non-longevity based senority system could work, you just shoot it down immediately, just like any other proposed change that doesn't exist at another airline perceived to be "better". No wonder this industry is going down the toilet.

So far neither have you.

All I have seen to this point is a few guys that spent a huge sum of money and trained for a career that clearly had no idea what it was really like. Now that they have taken a 20k a year job, are looking for some way to skip right to the big money and 20 days off.

What are we to do, grade every ILS approach and promote the guy that keeps it the closest to dead center? How about upgrading the guy that never calls in sick? What about giving it to the guy that always flies with open maint. descrepencies? How about the guy that is willing to fly 10 hours and log 8?

I guess we could start you out at 120k a year and reduce it every year after that by 10k? That would sure help in the upgrade. If a guy stays past year 12 he is working for free.

What exactly would you do to ensure that the highest experience stays in the command chair while still allowing the new guys with no experience to be Captain? How are you going to adress the favortism that will develop? How are you going to ensure that the checkrides are fair? How are you going to make sure that 500 airplanes fly their schedule everyday yet still give everyone their choice of days off?

It sounds real nice, but not one of you have come up with anything even remotely close to making it workable.

"Riding the tube gets old" WHY THE FLOCK DID YOU BECOME PROFESSIONAL PILOTS???????? Just what did you think being hired as a pilot meant????? Good grief crowd!!!! Even porn stars get tired of "Riding the tube".

 

[Skyline]

Bore chamber

Seniority,

Man does it ever get old sitting in that bore tube where time and space comes to a stand still. You can actually feel yourself getting older by the second as the life force slips from you grain by grain. I only had to deal with 6 hour flights some of those long haul guys have to suffer 12 and 14 hour sentences, YUK !

I don't think my plan would really be that difficult. Training would be the same as it is now. Everyone should be typed anyway it isn't all that much extra. Besides it would be a ggod idea to get some experience outside of the flight deck so you will have a chance at employment after your company goes under.

Skyline

 

[Ralgha]

So far neither have you.

All I have seen to this point is a few guys that spent a huge sum of money and trained for a career that clearly had no idea what it was really like. Now that they have taken a 20k a year job, are looking for some way to skip right to the big money and 20 days off.

I didn't spend a huge sum of money, and I had a very good idea of what it was like. I've seen nothing contrary to my expectations so far, and I'm not looking for any way to skip to the "big money". If you would read, you would have noticed that I would not benefit from the way I would put such a plan into action.

What are we to do, grade every ILS approach and promote the guy that keeps it the closest to dead center? How about upgrading the guy that never calls in sick? What about giving it to the guy that always flies with open maint. descrepencies? How about the guy that is willing to fly 10 hours and log 8?

I guess we could start you out at 120k a year and reduce it every year after that by 10k? That would sure help in the upgrade. If a guy stays past year 12 he is working for free.

What exactly would you do to ensure that the highest experience stays in the command chair while still allowing the new guys with no experience to be Captain? How are you going to adress the favortism that will develop? How are you going to ensure that the checkrides are fair? How are you going to make sure that 500 airplanes fly their schedule everyday yet still give everyone their choice of days off?

I don't know how to do it, again, if you could read, you would notice that I did not propose any method of making it work. The theory, like communisim, is great. The implementation is not so easy, but nothing good is.

It sounds real nice, but not one of you have come up with anything even remotely close to making it workable.

Like you have? You've done even less than we have. The eternal pessimist that would never enact change.

To really find a way to make it would would require much time and effort by a group of people. We can't have effort though now can we, that would be too much to ask for.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Seniority,

Man does it ever get old sitting in that bore tube where time and space comes to a stand still. You can actually feel yourself getting older by the second as the life force slips from you grain by grain. I only had to deal with 6 hour flights some of those long haul guys have to suffer 12 and 14 hour sentences, YUK !

I don't think my plan would really be that difficult. Training would be the same as it is now. Everyone should be typed anyway it isn't all that much extra. Besides it would be a ggod idea to get some experience outside of the flight deck so you will have a chance at employment after your company goes under.

Skyline

Earning a living is boring. Wow, did you just figure that one out?

You are right though, you are most definately in the wrong business. Maybe crop dusting? Professional aerobatic pilot? Stunt pilot for the movies?

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

To really find a way to make it would would require much time and effort by a group of people. We can't have effort though now can we, that would be too much to ask for.

Let us know when you figure out a plan. PM me with the web site that posts the details of the plan. Then we can have a question and answer portion to fugure out the way to implement it. We need to include every facet of the airline operation too. Need to find out how the changes would affect the maint. schedules, crew scheduling, load planning, training department etc. We would have to include all the different personnel from the various departments and get their view on the positives or negative of the plan and how it would affect their ability to do the job. I specialize in flying the things, I would need to get their opinions on the parts that I do not have first hand knowledge of.

 

[Spooky 1]

Incoming

Hey Skyline, whatya think of the age 60 rule? I want to see you really tip over this time.

 

[Skyline]

Ks

KS

Hey I don't know what you do but if you can sit there in the blackness of space during the arm pit of the night and stare at a dark panel for six hours and not get bored then you must be some kind of Einstein. Most guys are able to sleep through it. I just can't sleep in the flight deck it is kind of a defect I guess.

Skyline

 

[Skyline]

Thank God for age 60 Rule

Hey Skyline, whatya think of the age 60 rule? I want to see you really tip over this time.

I say thank God for the age 60 rule !!! If it wasn't for that none of us would have a chance. By the time they are 60 most airline pilots have lost all their friends, family, hobbies and now money. They have a death grip on the chair and the rule is the only thing that separates them from it. Their personalities have become so twisted that the only people who will talk to them anymore is the crew since they are hostages. Without the rule those guys would be there until they croaked at 70 or 80. Besides the total halt of career advancement for the rest of us what that fun would that would be to have to frequently poke the capt with a stick on approach to check for signs of life?

I say "Thank GOD for the age 60 rule". Long live the age 60 rule !!

Was that tippage enough?

Skyline