Senority System

[BE200Driver]

Where is the incentive to perform? It also would be nice to open up other jobs to pilots like: crew scheduling or dispatch. In the military pilots preform a variety of jobs besides fly. It gets old sitting in the tube day after day. The current system is antiquated. If we aren't going to enjoy huge pay and days off then they should rearrange the system to allow for more job satisfaction.

Skyline

Anything else you want?

 

[Ralgha]

You guys haven't even tried to think of a way that a non-longevity based senority system could work, you just shoot it down immediately, just like any other proposed change that doesn't exist at another airline perceived to be "better". No wonder this industry is going down the toilet.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

You guys haven't even tried to think of a way that a non-longevity based senority system could work, you just shoot it down immediately, just like any other proposed change that doesn't exist at another airline perceived to be "better". No wonder this industry is going down the toilet.

So far neither have you.

All I have seen to this point is a few guys that spent a huge sum of money and trained for a career that clearly had no idea what it was really like. Now that they have taken a 20k a year job, are looking for some way to skip right to the big money and 20 days off.

What are we to do, grade every ILS approach and promote the guy that keeps it the closest to dead center? How about upgrading the guy that never calls in sick? What about giving it to the guy that always flies with open maint. descrepencies? How about the guy that is willing to fly 10 hours and log 8?

I guess we could start you out at 120k a year and reduce it every year after that by 10k? That would sure help in the upgrade. If a guy stays past year 12 he is working for free.

What exactly would you do to ensure that the highest experience stays in the command chair while still allowing the new guys with no experience to be Captain? How are you going to adress the favortism that will develop? How are you going to ensure that the checkrides are fair? How are you going to make sure that 500 airplanes fly their schedule everyday yet still give everyone their choice of days off?

It sounds real nice, but not one of you have come up with anything even remotely close to making it workable.

"Riding the tube gets old" WHY THE FLOCK DID YOU BECOME PROFESSIONAL PILOTS???????? Just what did you think being hired as a pilot meant????? Good grief crowd!!!! Even porn stars get tired of "Riding the tube".

 

[Skyline]

Bore chamber

Seniority,

Man does it ever get old sitting in that bore tube where time and space comes to a stand still. You can actually feel yourself getting older by the second as the life force slips from you grain by grain. I only had to deal with 6 hour flights some of those long haul guys have to suffer 12 and 14 hour sentences, YUK !

I don't think my plan would really be that difficult. Training would be the same as it is now. Everyone should be typed anyway it isn't all that much extra. Besides it would be a ggod idea to get some experience outside of the flight deck so you will have a chance at employment after your company goes under.

Skyline

 

[Ralgha]

So far neither have you.

All I have seen to this point is a few guys that spent a huge sum of money and trained for a career that clearly had no idea what it was really like. Now that they have taken a 20k a year job, are looking for some way to skip right to the big money and 20 days off.

I didn't spend a huge sum of money, and I had a very good idea of what it was like. I've seen nothing contrary to my expectations so far, and I'm not looking for any way to skip to the "big money". If you would read, you would have noticed that I would not benefit from the way I would put such a plan into action.

What are we to do, grade every ILS approach and promote the guy that keeps it the closest to dead center? How about upgrading the guy that never calls in sick? What about giving it to the guy that always flies with open maint. descrepencies? How about the guy that is willing to fly 10 hours and log 8?

I guess we could start you out at 120k a year and reduce it every year after that by 10k? That would sure help in the upgrade. If a guy stays past year 12 he is working for free.

What exactly would you do to ensure that the highest experience stays in the command chair while still allowing the new guys with no experience to be Captain? How are you going to adress the favortism that will develop? How are you going to ensure that the checkrides are fair? How are you going to make sure that 500 airplanes fly their schedule everyday yet still give everyone their choice of days off?

I don't know how to do it, again, if you could read, you would notice that I did not propose any method of making it work. The theory, like communisim, is great. The implementation is not so easy, but nothing good is.

It sounds real nice, but not one of you have come up with anything even remotely close to making it workable.

Like you have? You've done even less than we have. The eternal pessimist that would never enact change.

To really find a way to make it would would require much time and effort by a group of people. We can't have effort though now can we, that would be too much to ask for.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Seniority,

Man does it ever get old sitting in that bore tube where time and space comes to a stand still. You can actually feel yourself getting older by the second as the life force slips from you grain by grain. I only had to deal with 6 hour flights some of those long haul guys have to suffer 12 and 14 hour sentences, YUK !

I don't think my plan would really be that difficult. Training would be the same as it is now. Everyone should be typed anyway it isn't all that much extra. Besides it would be a ggod idea to get some experience outside of the flight deck so you will have a chance at employment after your company goes under.

Skyline

Earning a living is boring. Wow, did you just figure that one out?

You are right though, you are most definately in the wrong business. Maybe crop dusting? Professional aerobatic pilot? Stunt pilot for the movies?

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

To really find a way to make it would would require much time and effort by a group of people. We can't have effort though now can we, that would be too much to ask for.

Let us know when you figure out a plan. PM me with the web site that posts the details of the plan. Then we can have a question and answer portion to fugure out the way to implement it. We need to include every facet of the airline operation too. Need to find out how the changes would affect the maint. schedules, crew scheduling, load planning, training department etc. We would have to include all the different personnel from the various departments and get their view on the positives or negative of the plan and how it would affect their ability to do the job. I specialize in flying the things, I would need to get their opinions on the parts that I do not have first hand knowledge of.

 

[Spooky 1]

Incoming

Hey Skyline, whatya think of the age 60 rule? I want to see you really tip over this time.

 

[Skyline]

Ks

KS

Hey I don't know what you do but if you can sit there in the blackness of space during the arm pit of the night and stare at a dark panel for six hours and not get bored then you must be some kind of Einstein. Most guys are able to sleep through it. I just can't sleep in the flight deck it is kind of a defect I guess.

Skyline

 

[Skyline]

Thank God for age 60 Rule

Hey Skyline, whatya think of the age 60 rule? I want to see you really tip over this time.

I say thank God for the age 60 rule !!! If it wasn't for that none of us would have a chance. By the time they are 60 most airline pilots have lost all their friends, family, hobbies and now money. They have a death grip on the chair and the rule is the only thing that separates them from it. Their personalities have become so twisted that the only people who will talk to them anymore is the crew since they are hostages. Without the rule those guys would be there until they croaked at 70 or 80. Besides the total halt of career advancement for the rest of us what that fun would that would be to have to frequently poke the capt with a stick on approach to check for signs of life?

I say "Thank GOD for the age 60 rule". Long live the age 60 rule !!

Was that tippage enough?

Skyline

 

[Spooky 1]

Frineds and family?

I say thank God for the age 60 rule !!! If it wasn't for that none of us would have a chance. By the time they are 60 most airline pilots have lost all their friends, family, hobbies and now money. They have a death grip on the chair and the rule is the only thing that separates them from it. Their personalities have become so twisted that the only people who will talk to them anymore is the crew since they are hostages. Without the rule those guys would be there until they croaked at 70 or 80. Besides the total halt of career advancement for the rest of us what that fun would that would be to have to frequently poke the capt with a stick on approach to check for signs of life?

I say "Thank GOD for the age 60 rule". Long live the age 60 rule !!

Was that tippage enough?

Not sure why you think turning 60 equates to having lost "all their friends, family, hobbies". I am familiar with the money loss but the others, I don't think so.

 

[Skyline]

Life Style

Spooky,

You know how the demands of the career over time alienate airline pilots from the rest of the world. Fathers hardly know their kids. Wives cheat and leave since they are home alone a lot. The constant moving to jump to the next sinking ship in spite of the needs of the family. That kind of thing. Also over time pilots are known to develop some personality problems since most of the people who they hang out with are closer to servants than real friends. The repetitive nature of the job has been studied since it causes obsessive compulsive disorder. By the time most are 60 they are a twisted car werck of a human sole without friends or famly. Just a nomad drifter who only has the yoke to hold onto. I have seen the fear and deconstruction that takes place soon after the retirement party ends and the realization hits that their little slice of power is gone and the only people left to boss around are the bag boys at Safeway.

That is what I mean.

Skyhigh

Thanks for the tipping. I have to go to work now.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

KS

Hey I don't know what you do but if you can sit there in the blackness of space during the arm pit of the night and stare at a dark panel for six hours and not get bored then you must be some kind of Einstein. Most guys are able to sleep through it. I just can't sleep in the flight deck it is kind of a defect I guess.

Skyline

I sit there for 12+ hours. Is it super fun? Heck no. Does it pay well compared to the same amount of time in other jobs? Yes

On the plus side after 12 hours in the plane, I get to see just about every corner of the globe. Saki one day, German beer another day, Nice real irish pub a couple of days later. When I get home I have a couple of weeks with the family that I am not touched by work.

I have flown just about every kind of flying you can think of at one time or another. About the only thing I have not done is Crop dusting, and bomb dropping. I have never seen the issues that you speak of on a continuing basis. Some months are longer than others, but it sure beats the crap out of anything I have done before flying. I can however see the problems in the regional side now. 1. Crap workrules, 2. crap pay, 3. crap advancment potential (RJ is all you have to look forward to.) Personally I would not work for an RJ outfit now. You can make a good life only dealing with one or two of the above list, but all three fall into the catagory of not worth it.

Having said that, I have never had a problem with the seniority system. For me it works and is a constant that can be counted on in ones career. It takes all the ambiguity and a$$ kissing factors out of the equasion. It does not play favorites and it does not force you to fly something that is unsafe or questionable.

It sounds as if you picked the entirely wrong career for your type of personality. Aviation has never been and will never be the 9 to 5 job with all the women and excitement that you seem to need.

 

[Spooky 1]

Who is this guy?

Spooky,

You know how the demands of the career over time alienate airline pilots from the rest of the world. Fathers hardly know their kids. Wives cheat and leave since they are home alone a lot. The constant moving to jump to the next sinking ship in spite of the needs of the family. That kind of thing. Also over time pilots are known to develop some personality problems since most of the people who they hang out with are closer to servants than real friends. The repetitive nature of the job has been studied since it causes obsessive compulsive disorder. By the time most are 60 they are a twisted car werck of a human sole without friends or famly. Just a nomad drifter who only has the yoke to hold onto. I have seen the fear and deconstruction that takes place soon after the retirement party ends and the realization hits that their little slice of power is gone and the only people left to boss around are the bag boys at Safeway.

That is what I mean.

Skyhigh

Thanks for the tipping. I have to go to work now.

I hesitate to continue this conversation as it appear that your focus on life and in particular this line of work is heavily weighted tho the negative side. Thousand and thousand of profesional pilots have gone before you without the negative results and personality disorders you describe. Certainly sounds as if you have choosen the wrong career path based upon your comments. Give it up, get going in some other field, but don't paint us all with your nonsense and grief. I have made a living out of aviation for more than forty-five years and the people I have met have been some of the most interesting, intellegent and thoughtfull (might know it from of the postings on the board though), men and women you would ever hope to meet in a lifetime.

One of the issues that does frequently implode on professional pilots is that many of them are super achievers. The seniorty system can be a drag for some of those people. Maybe your one of those types? Maybe you should consider a career path that allows for more personal growth. Maybe, you should be in corporate aviation where the individual has more room to expand his or her professional career.

I know one thing for sure, I would hate to sit in that tube with you for 12+ hours as it would be depressing in your current state of mind.

Good luck, and I mean that.

PS, I better call home and see what my wife is up to.

 

[Skyline]

Dear Spooky

Spooky,

You are probably right about me. I have always seen things a little differently than other people in this industry. I don't like the slow pace of the seniority system and tire of the repetitiion, but never the less I don't think it makes my observations any less true. If anything I think that since I don't wear rose colored glasses I see the world of aviation in a face value light.

In my research I closely listen to the people with whom I fly with and try to learn from their mistakes. Most of my peers just blindly walk down the path without realizing the price they are paying or stopping to figure out just where they are headed.

The love of the career causes some to make big errors in life and they end up loosing a lot of what it is truely important. Those are the guys of whom I was talking about earlier.

Thanks again for your comments. I enjoy our chats.


Skyline

 

[Spooky 1]

Is this you?

I knew a guy back in the early sixties that suffered from the same issues as yourself. Could not stand to be hemmed in the seniority system. The guy was bright. Took the two year opt-out at West Point and never looked back. Had every rating you could imagine by the time he was 25 years old. Got typed on the Connie during his initial checkout at Flying Tigers, something that just did not happen in those days to a new hire. Practically rewrote the L1049 pilot operating manual for the Tigers. Left them and flew for any number of non-skeds that were around in those days, Connie, DC6, 7 what ever. He could care less what the job was just as long as there was a challenge associated with it. Became the Chief Navigator for a non-sked, flying B707’s. You name it, and Dave had done it. The guy was a hoot to be around as his lust for aviation was contagious and he was good at it. Wound up in Anchorage flying Hercs up on the slope in the late sixties or early seventies. Finally met his end ferrying a C46 down to SA. Never found him or the wreckage. Left a lots of people wondering just what had ever happened to him. Who knows, might have lived through it and assumed a new identity. With this guy, anything was possible.

I guess I prefer the slow lane as it seems to be in keeping with my station in life.

 

[Huggyu2]

I haven't read the entire thread, but may I begin to creep off of it? How about pay system that is based purely on seniority and seat, and doesn't take into account the type of aircraft? Does that ever get brought up in this industry? For example, the top airline pilots tend to fly the 747, 777, etc... They do that to get paid the most. If I'm the #1 most senior pilot at my company, how about I get paid based on that. If I want to fly a 737 instead of the 747 (for whatever reason), I still get paid the top $$$.
I know that 60-70 years ago, weight/size of the aircraft helped determine the pay, and we've kept that idea around. I've seen a few older Capts that hated the long haul stuff (and probably shouldn't be doing it), but stayed there for the money.

 

[Spooky 1]

I haven't read the entire thread, but may I begin to creep off of it? How about pay system that is based purely on seniority and seat, and doesn't take into account the type of aircraft? Does that ever get brought up in this industry? For example, the top airline pilots tend to fly the 747, 777, etc... They do that to get paid the most. If I'm the #1 most senior pilot at my company, how about I get paid based on that. If I want to fly a 737 instead of the 747 (for whatever reason), I still get paid the top $$$.
I know that 60-70 years ago, weight/size of the aircraft helped determine the pay, and we've kept that idea around. I've seen a few older Capts that hated the long haul stuff (and probably shouldn't be doing it), but stayed there for the money.

There is ample president for this type of pay structure. Not positive, but CAL may be in this mode now. Western Air Lines imposed this on the pilot group back in the very early eighties. There was a howl that could be heard all the way to ALPA headquarters in DC. Basically all Captains were paid the same, F/O’s and S/O’s ditto. The only good thing that came of this for me personally was that when DC10 Capt. bids were awarded most of the guys senior to me said why bother? Consequently I found myself sitting in the left seat of the DC10 going back and forth to HNL at the ripe old age of 39. The bad news was that I was making the same wages as a DC10 S/O at AA.

 

[CapnVegetto]

I'm with Skyline and Rahlga (or whatever) on this one. The seniority system is antiquated and needs to be gotten rid of. Not completely, but mostly. It does encourage incompetence and laziness. All you've gotta do is sit over there and not kill anybody for about 3 to 4 years and boom.....you're gonna upgrade. You could be the $hittiest pilot ever, call in sick every other week, be a complete a$$hole to your crews, basically be the ultimate crappy employee and it doesn't matter. When your number is up, there you go. A combination of seniority and merit should be in place. All the senoirity advocates all say the same thing about a$$ kissing, etc. but the fact of the matter is, almost every other industry in the world has gotten by just fine for the last 200 years without it. I've watched my father get by fine without it for 30 years of working at his job......he is now at the top of his profession. Why? Because he is good at what he does, is respected by his peers, and was the most qualified.

There is nothing wrong with a merit based system, as long as it's done right. I hate the seniority system. It's there for one reason: to protect the dumbest, laziest, most inept motherf-ckers at the company.

 

[Occam's Razor]

The problem with a seniority-based pay system is that it takes productivity out of the equation. At some point (usually at the negotiating table!) the management beancounters will use it against you. They will claim that their B737 pilots are the "most expensive in the industry!" because senior pilots will bid the guppy rather than gobble time zones in a widebody every time they fly.

We can argue forever on who works harder, domestic pilots or long-haul international pilots...but the basic formula that ALPA uses (copied by APA) is lift, speed, range = pay rate.

The seniority system itself has flaws, as do all the other methods. Its beauty is its simplicity and its immunity to unscrupulous dorks. If Fred Smith could find away around it, he would have by now. Same for Lorenzo, Ichan, and the other greedy weasels.

I'm amused by the anti-union sentiment I've read here. The funniest accusation is "featherbedding". What a hoot! "Featherbedding" is code for "greed", like being "greedy" about what you want for the profession and yourself is misplaced in this industry. Unions were formed because managements were greedy. They exist now because managements continue to be greedy. Since they hold most of the face cards in this poker game, the only equalizer is collective unity.