1. I don't think you're qualified to quantify the percentage of ProStan cases that are successfully handled. Your experience is limited to your own airline, and I don't think you handled the ProStan cases there.
2. ProStan isn't the only method of policing a pilot group. I understand the Chief Pilots, Instructors, Check Airmen, and the FAA have a say in the process.
Well, they didn't do much of a job at Mesa. Or maybe my standards are just different. I found it amusing that most guys were completely unable to figure out a fuel order without a release. One very senior (15+ years) guy I flew with was absolutely amazed one day at the fact that I could file a flight plan over the phone in 5 minutes. Come on......that's basic stuff.
"When I worked at the airlines, a CRJ taxied into the mud at CID and got it stuck, the director of training started and taxied a DHC-8 out to the runway in DEN with the engine plugs in, I personally saw a guy taxi another CRJ into a baggage cart (completely his fault) and a buddy of mine flew with a guy that slammed a landing in so hard he blew BOTH sets of tires in PHL. I personally flew with one moron who, on the first landing he made with me, began to SLIP A F-ING CRJ. YOU DON'T SLIP A SWEPT WING AIRPLANE!!!! After admonishing the dumba$$, I called pro standards, nothing happened. I know for a fact that none of the above got fired, and only one had to do a PC. Where was the 'weeding out' process with these morons?"
I will concede that the airline that hired you hired a number of dorks. You had some bad personal experiences with some of them. Are you suggesting that merit-based operations don't have that problem? Perhaps you recall the untimely death of Senator Paul Wellstone at the hands of a "merit-based" captain.
I have it on pretty good authority that the major airlines (Pt 121 carriers) have a better accident record, by any measure, than other types of operations. I also know that all of them use seniority-based systems to upgrade pilots.
Sort of right. Pure part 91 corporate ops have a better safety record than airlines. 135 ops have a worse one.
"And don't talk to me about checkrides."
Why not?
"If you can't pass a checkride where you have 8 or 9 practice runs beforehand, the exact same ride ungraded the day before, then the briefing before hand where they tell you exactly what is going to happen in exact order, then you need to be frying chickens at Popeyes for a living."
Agree. Good thing that's not the way it works at the majors. I've been a Check Airman for over 9-years, and your characterization of checkrides is incorrect. The new "CQ" format used at my airline makes all maneuvers "first look" (with jeopardy) during the Manuvers Validation ride. There is no warm-up. The LOE ("Line Oriented Evaluation") ride is not briefed, and has no warm-up. It is pass/fail.
As much as you don't think the checkrides given at the airlines are too tough....this might be a good time to bring up the safety record of the airlines again.
I'd love to know who you work for. The United and USAir guys in my new hire class related to us how EASY training was there and how if you couldn't pass it, you were an idiot. Bravo to you guys for upping the standards a bit. I don't know anything about a CQ system, so I'll leave you with that. How many guys wash out of training there? When I finished my training, I couldn't believe that there were actually people failing it. It was easy. The type ride was exactly the same except for having to do circling approach and sitting in the other seat.
[/B]"Again, I personally know one captain at my former airline that can't get out a sentence without using the 'f' word, is quite fond of the 'n' word to describe black people, and he still has a job."
Ha! I know a guy that used to run a horseman's association that was named head of FEMA! No system is nitwit-proof! (I thought we agreed on that part?)
Me: "I understand the call centers in India are merit-based."
Good for them. Your point?
I was being subtle...
A lot of good jobs in America are finding their way overseas. Many of them from merit-based systems over here.
"You say that to my father and he'll tear you a new one. He's got the same point of view as me. "
I think I can kick your Dad's butt.
I will assume that you were just kidding. You probably could, seeing as how he's almost 57 years old and has 2 artificial hips. Of course, you'd have to go through me first, and I'd break your neck.
"OK. Skyline's idea of a points system is good. Seniority is perfect for pay and perfect for schedule picking. Bad for promotions. Every single FO, every flight is given evaluations by captains on attitude, ability, leadership, skill, etc. Here's the kicker....NO NAMES ARE PLACED ON THE EVALUATIONS. The FO's are not allowed to see them. 1 Eval is filled out per trip, and sent into corporate with NO NAMES ON IT and records are kept by an impartial 'upgrade committee' who meets when upgrades are needed and makes the decisions. The only one who knows who's evaluations are who's is an impartial company employee who has no say in the process, he/she is just a record keeper. The highest scoring evaluations (that meet minimum requirements set by the company for flight time, time in type, longevity with the company, etc.) are then upgraded. "
What happens to the jerks? The guys who use the "F" word and the "N" word? What happens if a pilot turns into a jerk once he/she upgrades? It looks like your system doesn't elminate jerks...it just keeps them in the right seat. How do you propose we police the captains?
See the above evaluation.......what was the first characteristic I listed on there? ATTITUDE. Some how I don't think an f-ing 'n' word calling guy will get very high marks in that area. What happens when pilot turns to a jerk when he/she upgrades? Same thing that happens in a seniority system. Someone slipped through the cracks. The only difference here is that you have a system that is designed to screen a lot of the jerks out, instead of just sending them on their way when their number is up. How do we police the captains? You mean they're not policed in a seniority system? Huh?
"I just flew with way too many bad pilots who didn't need to be in the left seat to agree with the seniority system."
Hmmmm. I've flown with 2 bad pilots. One got fired for being a bad pilot, and the other was a captain that is retired now. (Ironically, he was a Chief Pilot...a position he was awarded based on merit, not seniority) I've only been doing the airline thing for 18-years though, so I don't have a lot of experience...
Wow, 18 years? If it ain't broke, don't fix it, huh? Well I got news for ya, it's broke. Lateral moves are impossible with a seniority system. Wages and working conditions are down. In any other industry, or in corporate aviation for that matter, when your job starts sucking, you take your experience and move to a job that doesn't suck. At an airline, when your job starts sucking, you either suck it up, leave the industry altogether, start over somewhere else, or screw the junior guys to get yours. I'm sorry, but there are 1000 guys with 18 years at the airlines that think they know everything. Things change. Times change. The industry has changed. Airlines no longer get the cream of the pilot crop......it's no longer the best job out there. 20 years ago, everybody dreamed of flying a 747 across the pond one day. The military was airline training ground. Everybody wanted to work there, so you got the best of the best. Now there are furloughs, bankrupcies, greedy managment, defaulted pensions, crappy work rules, crappy pay, and lousy schedules. You have pilot factories in FL pumping out commercial certificates by the hundreds. Airline pilots, many with a lot of seniority, are quitting the industry altogether. Those same 'cream of the crop' military guys from days of old are now scraping any possible way they can to save their pensions. Are there plenty of apps on file everywhere? Sure. But they're all the same group of apps from the 5000 furloughed guys that don't know how to do anything else.
It's time to overhaul the industry. It's time to change the way things are done. You can't count on everyone to be 'the best' anymore. Those same super sharp military guys are staying in the military or finding work elsewhere. They're being replaced by RJ captains from pilot factories. Some are great pilots! Some are douchebags. But one thing is for sure, they're not the top of the mountain anymore. There is no more $300K a year DC-10 captain job at the end of the rainbow anymore. I'm so happy that you've been there for 18 years, I'd give you a cookie. I'm majorly impressed. But it doesn't matter if something is 1 year old or 800 years old. If it's inferior, it needs to be changed......and I believe it is inferior. If Ben Franklin showed up wearing white socks, knickers, and a grey curly wig we'd all point and laugh at him. "I've been wearing this for 200 years!!" he'd say. So what? Times have changed. Now he looks like a jacka$$. See my point?
