Senority System

[Spooky 1]

Frineds and family?

I say thank God for the age 60 rule !!! If it wasn't for that none of us would have a chance. By the time they are 60 most airline pilots have lost all their friends, family, hobbies and now money. They have a death grip on the chair and the rule is the only thing that separates them from it. Their personalities have become so twisted that the only people who will talk to them anymore is the crew since they are hostages. Without the rule those guys would be there until they croaked at 70 or 80. Besides the total halt of career advancement for the rest of us what that fun would that would be to have to frequently poke the capt with a stick on approach to check for signs of life?

I say "Thank GOD for the age 60 rule". Long live the age 60 rule !!

Was that tippage enough?

Not sure why you think turning 60 equates to having lost "all their friends, family, hobbies". I am familiar with the money loss but the others, I don't think so.

 

[Skyline]

Life Style

Spooky,

You know how the demands of the career over time alienate airline pilots from the rest of the world. Fathers hardly know their kids. Wives cheat and leave since they are home alone a lot. The constant moving to jump to the next sinking ship in spite of the needs of the family. That kind of thing. Also over time pilots are known to develop some personality problems since most of the people who they hang out with are closer to servants than real friends. The repetitive nature of the job has been studied since it causes obsessive compulsive disorder. By the time most are 60 they are a twisted car werck of a human sole without friends or famly. Just a nomad drifter who only has the yoke to hold onto. I have seen the fear and deconstruction that takes place soon after the retirement party ends and the realization hits that their little slice of power is gone and the only people left to boss around are the bag boys at Safeway.

That is what I mean.

Skyhigh

Thanks for the tipping. I have to go to work now.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

KS

Hey I don't know what you do but if you can sit there in the blackness of space during the arm pit of the night and stare at a dark panel for six hours and not get bored then you must be some kind of Einstein. Most guys are able to sleep through it. I just can't sleep in the flight deck it is kind of a defect I guess.

Skyline

I sit there for 12+ hours. Is it super fun? Heck no. Does it pay well compared to the same amount of time in other jobs? Yes

On the plus side after 12 hours in the plane, I get to see just about every corner of the globe. Saki one day, German beer another day, Nice real irish pub a couple of days later. When I get home I have a couple of weeks with the family that I am not touched by work.

I have flown just about every kind of flying you can think of at one time or another. About the only thing I have not done is Crop dusting, and bomb dropping. I have never seen the issues that you speak of on a continuing basis. Some months are longer than others, but it sure beats the crap out of anything I have done before flying. I can however see the problems in the regional side now. 1. Crap workrules, 2. crap pay, 3. crap advancment potential (RJ is all you have to look forward to.) Personally I would not work for an RJ outfit now. You can make a good life only dealing with one or two of the above list, but all three fall into the catagory of not worth it.

Having said that, I have never had a problem with the seniority system. For me it works and is a constant that can be counted on in ones career. It takes all the ambiguity and a$$ kissing factors out of the equasion. It does not play favorites and it does not force you to fly something that is unsafe or questionable.

It sounds as if you picked the entirely wrong career for your type of personality. Aviation has never been and will never be the 9 to 5 job with all the women and excitement that you seem to need.

 

[Spooky 1]

Who is this guy?

Spooky,

You know how the demands of the career over time alienate airline pilots from the rest of the world. Fathers hardly know their kids. Wives cheat and leave since they are home alone a lot. The constant moving to jump to the next sinking ship in spite of the needs of the family. That kind of thing. Also over time pilots are known to develop some personality problems since most of the people who they hang out with are closer to servants than real friends. The repetitive nature of the job has been studied since it causes obsessive compulsive disorder. By the time most are 60 they are a twisted car werck of a human sole without friends or famly. Just a nomad drifter who only has the yoke to hold onto. I have seen the fear and deconstruction that takes place soon after the retirement party ends and the realization hits that their little slice of power is gone and the only people left to boss around are the bag boys at Safeway.

That is what I mean.

Skyhigh

Thanks for the tipping. I have to go to work now.

I hesitate to continue this conversation as it appear that your focus on life and in particular this line of work is heavily weighted tho the negative side. Thousand and thousand of profesional pilots have gone before you without the negative results and personality disorders you describe. Certainly sounds as if you have choosen the wrong career path based upon your comments. Give it up, get going in some other field, but don't paint us all with your nonsense and grief. I have made a living out of aviation for more than forty-five years and the people I have met have been some of the most interesting, intellegent and thoughtfull (might know it from of the postings on the board though), men and women you would ever hope to meet in a lifetime.

One of the issues that does frequently implode on professional pilots is that many of them are super achievers. The seniorty system can be a drag for some of those people. Maybe your one of those types? Maybe you should consider a career path that allows for more personal growth. Maybe, you should be in corporate aviation where the individual has more room to expand his or her professional career.

I know one thing for sure, I would hate to sit in that tube with you for 12+ hours as it would be depressing in your current state of mind.

Good luck, and I mean that.

PS, I better call home and see what my wife is up to.

 

[Skyline]

Dear Spooky

Spooky,

You are probably right about me. I have always seen things a little differently than other people in this industry. I don't like the slow pace of the seniority system and tire of the repetitiion, but never the less I don't think it makes my observations any less true. If anything I think that since I don't wear rose colored glasses I see the world of aviation in a face value light.

In my research I closely listen to the people with whom I fly with and try to learn from their mistakes. Most of my peers just blindly walk down the path without realizing the price they are paying or stopping to figure out just where they are headed.

The love of the career causes some to make big errors in life and they end up loosing a lot of what it is truely important. Those are the guys of whom I was talking about earlier.

Thanks again for your comments. I enjoy our chats.


Skyline

 

[Spooky 1]

Is this you?

I knew a guy back in the early sixties that suffered from the same issues as yourself. Could not stand to be hemmed in the seniority system. The guy was bright. Took the two year opt-out at West Point and never looked back. Had every rating you could imagine by the time he was 25 years old. Got typed on the Connie during his initial checkout at Flying Tigers, something that just did not happen in those days to a new hire. Practically rewrote the L1049 pilot operating manual for the Tigers. Left them and flew for any number of non-skeds that were around in those days, Connie, DC6, 7 what ever. He could care less what the job was just as long as there was a challenge associated with it. Became the Chief Navigator for a non-sked, flying B707’s. You name it, and Dave had done it. The guy was a hoot to be around as his lust for aviation was contagious and he was good at it. Wound up in Anchorage flying Hercs up on the slope in the late sixties or early seventies. Finally met his end ferrying a C46 down to SA. Never found him or the wreckage. Left a lots of people wondering just what had ever happened to him. Who knows, might have lived through it and assumed a new identity. With this guy, anything was possible.

I guess I prefer the slow lane as it seems to be in keeping with my station in life.

 

[Huggyu2]

I haven't read the entire thread, but may I begin to creep off of it? How about pay system that is based purely on seniority and seat, and doesn't take into account the type of aircraft? Does that ever get brought up in this industry? For example, the top airline pilots tend to fly the 747, 777, etc... They do that to get paid the most. If I'm the #1 most senior pilot at my company, how about I get paid based on that. If I want to fly a 737 instead of the 747 (for whatever reason), I still get paid the top $$$.
I know that 60-70 years ago, weight/size of the aircraft helped determine the pay, and we've kept that idea around. I've seen a few older Capts that hated the long haul stuff (and probably shouldn't be doing it), but stayed there for the money.

 

[Spooky 1]

I haven't read the entire thread, but may I begin to creep off of it? How about pay system that is based purely on seniority and seat, and doesn't take into account the type of aircraft? Does that ever get brought up in this industry? For example, the top airline pilots tend to fly the 747, 777, etc... They do that to get paid the most. If I'm the #1 most senior pilot at my company, how about I get paid based on that. If I want to fly a 737 instead of the 747 (for whatever reason), I still get paid the top $$$.
I know that 60-70 years ago, weight/size of the aircraft helped determine the pay, and we've kept that idea around. I've seen a few older Capts that hated the long haul stuff (and probably shouldn't be doing it), but stayed there for the money.

There is ample president for this type of pay structure. Not positive, but CAL may be in this mode now. Western Air Lines imposed this on the pilot group back in the very early eighties. There was a howl that could be heard all the way to ALPA headquarters in DC. Basically all Captains were paid the same, F/O’s and S/O’s ditto. The only good thing that came of this for me personally was that when DC10 Capt. bids were awarded most of the guys senior to me said why bother? Consequently I found myself sitting in the left seat of the DC10 going back and forth to HNL at the ripe old age of 39. The bad news was that I was making the same wages as a DC10 S/O at AA.

 

[CapnVegetto]

I'm with Skyline and Rahlga (or whatever) on this one. The seniority system is antiquated and needs to be gotten rid of. Not completely, but mostly. It does encourage incompetence and laziness. All you've gotta do is sit over there and not kill anybody for about 3 to 4 years and boom.....you're gonna upgrade. You could be the $hittiest pilot ever, call in sick every other week, be a complete a$$hole to your crews, basically be the ultimate crappy employee and it doesn't matter. When your number is up, there you go. A combination of seniority and merit should be in place. All the senoirity advocates all say the same thing about a$$ kissing, etc. but the fact of the matter is, almost every other industry in the world has gotten by just fine for the last 200 years without it. I've watched my father get by fine without it for 30 years of working at his job......he is now at the top of his profession. Why? Because he is good at what he does, is respected by his peers, and was the most qualified.

There is nothing wrong with a merit based system, as long as it's done right. I hate the seniority system. It's there for one reason: to protect the dumbest, laziest, most inept motherf-ckers at the company.

 

[Occam's Razor]

The problem with a seniority-based pay system is that it takes productivity out of the equation. At some point (usually at the negotiating table!) the management beancounters will use it against you. They will claim that their B737 pilots are the "most expensive in the industry!" because senior pilots will bid the guppy rather than gobble time zones in a widebody every time they fly.

We can argue forever on who works harder, domestic pilots or long-haul international pilots...but the basic formula that ALPA uses (copied by APA) is lift, speed, range = pay rate.

The seniority system itself has flaws, as do all the other methods. Its beauty is its simplicity and its immunity to unscrupulous dorks. If Fred Smith could find away around it, he would have by now. Same for Lorenzo, Ichan, and the other greedy weasels.

I'm amused by the anti-union sentiment I've read here. The funniest accusation is "featherbedding". What a hoot! "Featherbedding" is code for "greed", like being "greedy" about what you want for the profession and yourself is misplaced in this industry. Unions were formed because managements were greedy. They exist now because managements continue to be greedy. Since they hold most of the face cards in this poker game, the only equalizer is collective unity.

 

[Spooky 1]

I'm with Skyline and Rahlga (or whatever) on this one. The seniority system is antiquated and needs to be gotten rid of. Not completely, but mostly. It does encourage incompetence and laziness. All you've gotta do is sit over there and not kill anybody for about 3 to 4 years and boom.....you're gonna upgrade. You could be the $hittiest pilot ever, call in sick every other week, be a complete a$$hole to your crews, basically be the ultimate crappy employee and it doesn't matter. When your number is up, there you go. A combination of seniority and merit should be in place. All the senoirity advocates all say the same thing about a$$ kissing, etc. but the fact of the matter is, almost every other industry in the world has gotten by just fine for the last 200 years without it. I've watched my father get by fine without it for 30 years of working at his job......he is now at the top of his profession. Why? Because he is good at what he does, is respected by his peers, and was the most qualified.

There is nothing wrong with a merit based system, as long as it's done right. I hate the seniority system. It's there for one reason: to protect the dumbest, laziest, most inept motherf-ckers at the company.

Hey CAP'n, I guess with 2600 hours you know everything about this business? Also I assume that if your senior and old, you are therefore dumb, lazy, inept, and maybe even fu#king your mother. You are a complete toad with a serious socialistic approach to life. Please don't talk about anything important such performance based upgrading, seniority progression. Your on my ignore list from here on.

 

[CapnVegetto]

Hey CAP'n, I guess with 2600 hours you know everything about this business? Also I assume that if your senior and old, you are therefore dumb, lazy, inept, and maybe even fu#king your mother. You are a complete toad with a serious socialistic approach to life. Please don't talk about anything important such performance based upgrading, seniority progression. Your on my ignore list from here on.

Oh boy......here's another old fart that thinks he knows everything in the world. Please accept my humble apologies oh great and wise sir, because my amount of flight time must completely be related to my intelligence and amount of common sense. God forbid someone actually get recognized for doing a good job!! What a crime that would be!!

Hope you're picking up on the sarcasm. Dumba$$.

 

[Occam's Razor]

It does encourage incompetence and laziness. All you've gotta do is sit over there and not kill anybody for about 3 to 4 years and boom.....you're gonna upgrade.

Wow! That's it? Don't "kill anybody" and you get to be a captain?

Cool!

I thought there was some sort of initial screening process before you got hired, and a list of bona fide occupational qualifications. I was under the impression that most airlines that use a seniority system had some sort of "probationary" period that you had to complete, and that throughout your career you were subjected to scrutiny. Do you have FOQA where you work?

I'm also glad to hear checkrides have been eliminated, and all you have to do is "not kill anybody" to upgrade. (I'm throwing those heavy-a$$ manuals away as soon as I figure out where I left them!)

You could be the $hittiest pilot ever, call in sick every other week, be a complete a$$hole to your crews, basically be the ultimate crappy employee and it doesn't matter. When your number is up, there you go.

Really? The Chief Pilots don't mind? ProStan doesn't have your phone number? There's no qualification program?

Is that the way it was at all the airlines you have worked for? My personal experience has been much different. I've seen plenty of pilots fired at my airline for being jerks.

All the senoirity advocates all say the same thing about a$$ kissing, etc. but the fact of the matter is, almost every other industry in the world has gotten by just fine for the last 200 years without it.

I understand the call centers in India are merit-based.

I've watched my father get by fine without it for 30 years of working at his job......he is now at the top of his profession. Why? Because he is good at what he does, is respected by his peers, and was the most qualified.

Ok. I watched my Dad thrive and succeed in a seniority-based system.

A draw?

There is nothing wrong with a merit based system, as long as it's done right.

Agree. But that's the rub, isn't it? Show me how to make it dweeb-proof. Show me how you can stop favoritism, bias, and cover-ups from permeating it. Show me how to keep it legitimate.

I hate the seniority system. It's there for one reason: to protect the dumbest, laziest, most inept motherf-ckers at the company.

I disagree. I think it's there to avoid all the worst subjective elements that come with a merit-based system. Pilots still have to measure-up.

 

[CapnVegetto]

Since I'm not sure how to fix quotes like you did, I'll do it this way.

Wow! That's it? Don't "kill anybody" and you get to be a captain?

Cool!

I thought there was some sort of initial screening process before you got hired, and a list of bona fide occupational qualifications. I was under the impression that most airlines that use a seniority system had some sort of "probationary" period that you had to complete, and that throughout your career you were subjected to scrutiny. Do you have FOQA where you work?

I'm also glad to hear checkrides have been eliminated, and all you have to do is "not kill anybody" to upgrade. (I'm throwing those heavy-a$$ manuals away as soon as I figure out where I left them!)

Valid points, but as you said, no system is perfect. Pro standards can only do something if you are reported. Most of the time, they slap you on the wrist, give you a PC, and send you on your way. When I worked at the airlines, a CRJ taxied into the mud at CID and got it stuck, the director of training started and taxied a DHC-8 out to the runway in DEN with the engine plugs in, I personally saw a guy taxi another CRJ into a baggage cart (completely his fault) and a buddy of mine flew with a guy that slammed a landing in so hard he blew BOTH sets of tires in PHL. I personally flew with one moron who, on the first landing he made with me, began to SLIP A F-ING CRJ. YOU DON'T SLIP A SWEPT WING AIRPLANE!!!! After admonishing the dumba$$, I called pro standards, nothing happened. I know for a fact that none of the above got fired, and only one had to do a PC. Where was the 'weeding out' process with these morons?

And don't talk to me about checkrides. If you can't pass a checkride where you have 8 or 9 practice runs beforehand, the exact same ride ungraded the day before, then the briefing before hand where they tell you exactly what is going to happen in exact order, then you need to be frying chickens at Popeyes for a living.


Really? The Chief Pilots don't mind? ProStan doesn't have your phone number? There's no qualification program?

Is that the way it was at all the airlines you have worked for? My personal experience has been much different. I've seen plenty of pilots fired at my airline for being jerks.

Good for your airline. I'm only speaking from experience. Again, I personally know one captain at my former airline that can't get out a sentence without using the 'f' word, is quite fond of the 'n' word to describe black people, and he still has a job.



I understand the call centers in India are merit-based.

Good for them. Your point?



Ok. I watched my Dad thrive and succeed in a seniority-based system.

A draw?

Sure. Works fine for some folks. I just don't agree with it. It just pi$$es me off to see airline guys that say if you're not in a seniority system, the only way to move up is to kiss a$$. That's bull$hit. I've witnessed it first hand. You say that to my father and he'll tear you a new one. He's got the same point of view as me.



Agree. But that's the rub, isn't it? Show me how to make it dweeb-proof. Show me how you can stop favoritism, bias, and cover-ups from permeating it. Show me how to keep it legitimate.

OK. Skyline's idea of a points system is good. Seniority is perfect for pay and perfect for schedule picking. Bad for promotions. Every single FO, every flight is given evaluations by captains on attitude, ability, leadership, skill, etc. Here's the kicker....NO NAMES ARE PLACED ON THE EVALUATIONS. The FO's are not allowed to see them. 1 Eval is filled out per trip, and sent into corporate with NO NAMES ON IT and records are kept by an impartial 'upgrade committee' who meets when upgrades are needed and makes the decisions. The only one who knows who's evaluations are who's is an impartial company employee who has no say in the process, he/she is just a record keeper. The highest scoring evaluations (that meet minimum requirements set by the company for flight time, time in type, longevity with the company, etc.) are then upgraded.


I disagree. I think it's there to avoid all the worst subjective elements that come with a merit-based system. Pilots still have to measure-up.

I just flew with way too many bad pilots who didn't need to be in the left seat to agree with the seniority system. Like I said, it's great for pay and scheduling. Bad for promotions. That's what I think anyway.

 

[fdxmd11pilot]

The Seniority system

I once worked at a life insurance company. I was hired in at a level, 2 levels below "officer". Then over time I became one. When I left, my job title was Assistant VP. At the same time that I was hired, another person was hired into an identical job, with the same pay grade, etc. Within 2 years that person had moved up the ladder significantly. I guess the fact that that person was sleeping with their direct supervisor didn't play a part.

When I came to the airlines, I realized that the promotion system was a little different. It didn't seem to matter if you were sleeping with the boss or not, you were in a seniority based system. Those who'd gotten there before you were senior to you. Pure and simple. That seniority is good for a number of things, but not all. Seniority is used for: 1) monthly line bidding, inclucing reserve line bidding; 2) vacation time-slot bidding; 3) aircraft and seat upgrades; 4) simulator scheduling; 5) new aircraft or seat training time/date slots; and 6) vacation buy-back policies (where the company asks pilots to sell their vacation back for cash, because the company does not have enough people for a particular a/c or seat. There might be a few more events that are seniority based, but I can't think of them right now.

Seniority does not effect: 1) where you park in the company's parking lot; 2) whose first in the chow line; 3) whose made a line check airman; 4) whose made a simulator instructor; 5) whose made regional or chief pilots; 6) whose the best and whose the worst guys to fly a long trip with. These events are either on a first come-first served system (as #'s 1 & 2 above), or by using the "good ole boys network" as in #'s 3, 4, and 5 above. As for #6 above, this is one of the most important issues we face as line pilots. If the other guy is difficult to fly with, it's going to be a very long 2 day trip. Conversely, if he's/she's a pleasure to fly with, then that 15 day trip is going to go by pretty fast.

I've rambled, and I appologize, but I'm a proponent of the seniority based system. You know what you're in for from the beginning and it's very rare when you see someone trying to screw their way to the top. The seniority system gives you many ways to meet your goals. If you're into quality of life, you can elect to bid to stay in a particular seat or aircraft that will maximize your (say) time at home, or in a particular city, or days off. If you're into $$$ you can bid a larger jet that will eat you up, but at the same time allow you to earn more money. There are all sorts of options that seniority brings. Nobody gets screwed by seniority, they just get what their seniority can hold.