General Lee
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Didn't the company agree to it too? Are any of them still around? Yup. You forgot about the other agreeing party. Poof, there goes USAPA.
Bye Bye---General Lee
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Seniority list at the new AA?
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Didn't the company agree to it too? Are any of them still around? Yup. You forgot about the other agreeing party. Poof, there goes USAPA.
Bye Bye---General Lee
Riggghttt. I guess we'll find out in a year or two when the AA/US Air SLI goes to the arbitrators.
I don't think the APA is going to want to inherit USAPA's dirty laundry. They're going let it go to arbitration and make the arbitrators decide on which US Air list to use.
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Bringupthebird
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You are. There is no variably binding arbitration based on who is involved. The parties have not changed, only the representitives (ALPA->USAPA). Changing the union didn't matter, nor did ginning up a constitution that prohibits the results of the arbitration after the fact.
What has sheltered USAPA from paying the price for their misdeeds has been their failure to deliver a contract that cements their DOH scheme. They have been able to steal the west pilot's rightful benefits of the merger by delaying doing anything. No one has forced their hand through a representation election, so apparently all the parties are OK with USAPA's theft (litigation notwithstanding). Frankly that's what baffles me. USAPA will not find a willing accomplice in the APA to continue their theft, so they will either find additional ways to continue to delay or they will proffer a base fence that accomplishes the same thing without the threat of more DFR suits.
A more likely scenario is that the APA does what it wants after Single Carrier is determined (expedited no doubt). Prior to that APA will copy from the USAPA playbook and drag it's feet until it can deal unilaterally.
You demanded no accountability from USAPA, so you should expect no truth from their leaders.
Even if the Nic award gets implemented would it necessarily matter in the long run? The next arbitrator could decide to go to something closer to DOH for the whole American list and basically reverse the Nic award with a new award that supersedes it.
The Nic award puts many newer DOH pilots at west above pilots at East with older DOH. That may be fine for that side because the award legitimately arbitrated over there but will the next arbitrator put newer DOH west pilots in front of older DOH American pilots? There's a chance that eventually the Nic award will not matter system-wide after the next arbitration except to the extent that Airways exists behind a fence for some period of time. The American pilots have the numbers (just like the west pilots did) and will make every effort to protect their interests. I don't expect them to look any more kindly on a solution that strays far from DOH than the West pilots did. In the end I see the west pilots ending up on the big list somewhere near DOH. Is that fair?.........who knows what fair is in this crazy industry.
The Nic award puts many newer DOH pilots at west above pilots at East with older DOH. That may be fine for that side because the award legitimately arbitrated over there but will the next arbitrator put newer DOH west pilots in front of older DOH American pilots? There's a chance that eventually the Nic award will not matter system-wide after the next arbitration except to the extent that Airways exists behind a fence for some period of time. The American pilots have the numbers (just like the west pilots did) and will make every effort to protect their interests. I don't expect them to look any more kindly on a solution that strays far from DOH than the West pilots did. In the end I see the west pilots ending up on the big list somewhere near DOH. Is that fair?.........who knows what fair is in this crazy industry.
TWA Dude
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Yes. Integrity always matters -- regardless of seniority.
Your scenarios are irrelevant because there will never be agreement on what constitutes a fair integration. All we can hope for is a fair process by which the SLI is achieved. Arbitration is the only way and any effort to circumvent it is abhorrent.
My guess is that the arbitrators will not weight heavily "DOH." I think relative seniority, some fences, and taking into account the 5:1 disparity in widebodies will be the core principles of an arbitration. It'll be much more like NWA/DAL. And that's where the problem lies. What SL does USAPA slide across the table to the arbitrators?
Again, there's no WAY the APA is going to touch USAPA's legal morass. USAPA has to clean it's own house first.
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General Lee
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I think ZERO. The creditors want their money, and so does management. It will happen regardless. But, Parker wants integration for this merger, and he will probably FORCE USAPA to act, and that would mean the NIC....... You can run but you can't hide USAPA!!
Bye Bye---General Lee
The merger will happen no matter what USAPA does or doesn't do. They don't have nearly the horsepower to stop it. Heck, they've already voted for it.
The SLI, will no doubt, go to arbitration. USAPA or Leonides, can pitch a hissy, but it's going to happen. After the final SLI arbitration, the decision will come down and, whomever "they" is, is going to be told to take the pay raise, sit down and STFU, or leave.
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gutshotdraw
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Which will be the Nic.
Do you think three arbitrators are going to toss the work of another member of their "club." Never happen.
DCAA320
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General Lee
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I happen to have friends that are Westies, and thy have been through enough. They signed up and accepted the gamble of arbitration, along with the Easties and management. Integrity matters.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Did you read that manifesto he wrote a few weeks back? Reminds me of that guy from silence of the lambs.
The General Lee theme song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTs_TZFjbJ8
General Lee
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General Lee
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Don't let your fear of the NIC overtake what is left of your integrity. Ooops, too late.
Bye Bye---General Lee
Turtle21
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No one believes the poser.
http://www.thestreet.mobi/story/118...ess-at-us-airways.html?puc=yahoo&cm_ven=YAHOO
But perhaps their active duty time, rather than their date of hire, could be considered in compiling a new list.
Like I've said before. I fully support credit for time in service. I don't know any pilot who ever asked to be furloughed. LOAs not withstanding.
Flame away west crowd.
But perhaps their active duty time, rather than their date of hire, could be considered in compiling a new list.
Like I've said before. I fully support credit for time in service. I don't know any pilot who ever asked to be furloughed. LOAs not withstanding.
Flame away west crowd.
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The Drizzle
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His summation fits perfectly, and boils down to the point that the hard-line stance is the irresponsible, untenable, and losing stance.
Good thing USAPA doesn't have a hard-line stance written into their constitution and bylaws.
oh.
General Lee
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What Ted Reed doesn't realize is that allowing USAPA to just dump an arbitrated award means ANYONE will be allowed to do the same, if they don't like it.....So, arbitration will become obsolete, even though BOTH sides plus the company agreed to it. Ted Reed didn't talk about that. Maybe divorces shouldn't be final either. Nah, and accident injury awards too. If the defendant doesn't like it, then they should just switch names and then say "Hey, it's not me anymore, I am now Seemorebutts, not Turtle21...."
Luckily Ted Reed isn't ruling on this case, and the last judge did say USAPA was on Dangerous Ground by not using the NIC award. You have to go on what they say, not Reed. Doesn't he live in CLT? He probably has a lot of Eastie friends that, like LearLove, have infested their minds with nonsense. Integrity, if you sign something, follow it.
Bye Bye---General Lee
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If your referring to me specifically then all you need to do is search my past years posts on this and see that this is always where I've stood on the issue. The times I've argued doh was more siding with doh when only compared with the nic as doh vs nic I'd have to say that given only these two routes I'd have to pick doh as it is more closely aligned with years of service than nic.
General Lee
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And you called the Westies "Sand People." The Easties have melted your brain.
Bye Bye---General Lee
General Lee
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"You can't handle the truth....." JN
Have fun eating lunch with Ted Reed!
Bye Bye---General Lee
The Drizzle
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Nope, only commenting on the author's last line and USAPA's by-laws. I've only been through two mergers in my young career and both times the hard-line position came out on the "losing" side.
The Drizzle
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This message is hidden because General Lee is on your ignore list.
Deadalus
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What, you didn't know? You'll love this.... Ted Reed is an ex US Airways pilot, seriously he is. He lost any credibility discusing anything about US a looooong time ago. He's just a USAPA mouthpiece. I have no problem with ex-employees taking sides, but to mount the pulpit and spout off like he's an impartial financial expert, well...... he's just a D-bag
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General Lee
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Ahhhhh, I didn't know that. It's funny to see all of the East guys telling me to go stuff it, when they don't want to acknowledge exactly what happened. Both sides, plus the company signed off on Nicolau. Nic was against DOH during the process, and even went to the East to tell them that it wasn't going to work DOH, and to go try to work out an alternative, and the East MEC Chair supposedly ignored him. Hmmmmmmm. The APA really doesn't want to inherrit this mess, and how could they TRUST USAPA to do it again (another arbitrated SLI)??? That's just plain NUTS..... Let me guess, this time they won't have one hand behind their back with fingers crossed........ZERO INTEGRITY.
Bye Bye---General Lee
Deadalus
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Agreed, zero integrity and zero brains. Most of the pilots I socialize with now are Alaska pilots, because they're neighbors. They all think AWA should have let US die. If I had to guess, USAPA probably thinks that APA will give them DOH with fences, so there will be no arbitration ie fair decision. You just know they're going to be in utter shock when it doesn't go their way and the Nic gets used. We're talking epic melt down. If I were a west pilot I'd start getting care packages together for the easties. You know; kleenex, pacifiers, diapers/depends, etc.
beechjetdriver
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Correct me if I'm wrong but Ted Reed isn't a former US Airways pilot, however, he did used to work in the US Airways communication department a long time ago. You don't have to agree with his articles or opinions, but he's actually a really nice guy (I've met him). He's not a D-bag as indicated by your post. For the record I'm not an east or west guy, just an outsider looking in. Carry on...
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