Seniority dispute ends at US Airways

[Mud Eagle]

So, the DFR case is settled. What does that have to do with the Nic decision?

 

[Cowboy75]

So, the DFR case is settled. What does that have to do with the Nic decision?

The folks that write their updates for USAPA think it is settled. They are hoping, which is all they have, that we don't have the funds to take the case to the Supreme Court. If this court does not take the case, all USAPA has to do is present the DOH list to the company which is the trigger that makes the case ripe. The arbitrated list is the the one the company accepted and testimony from the trial affirms the fact. US Airways has filed a lawsuit seeking clarification on the seniority dispute because they realize they will be defendants in a future lawsuit if they accept USAPA's DOH list.

Since USAPA does not allow a message board, (because they don't care to be challenged), the noise machine puts out updates such as the one posted.
The claim in the update that a DOH cramdown and conditions and restrictions on the West is a win is comical.

They want us all to be "good union pilots" in their updates is code for shut up and let a very few decide the direction on the union. We refuse to be a "good union pilots" if they insist on spending our dues money in an attempt to place furloughed pilots ahead of pilots flying at the time our shotgun wedding was announced.

 

[hockeypilot44]

By getting along, do you mean the west should just give up and let USAPA have DOH?

What isn't going to last?

If I was a West pilot, I would want 20 year fences on the West bases, but no fences on the East bases. I would offer date of hire. It's a business decision taking emotion out of it. This would better the West pilots' situation from their current situation. I would also put a stipulation in there for out-of-seniority furloughs protecting all West pilots. This will never happen as pilots are too stupid and stubborn for their own good. The Nic award might be binding, but it will not be put to use for 20 years anyway. This is a case of one group not doing what's best for them to spite another group. I understand that they feel entitled to the Nic, and the East screwed them, but in the business world, you have to look passed that. You make the best decision to better your own situation. Neither group is doing that now.

 

[Cowboy75]

If I was a West pilot, I would want 20 year fences on the West bases, but no fences on the East bases. I would offer date of hire. It's a business decision taking emotion out of it. This would better the West pilots' situation from their current situation. I would also put a stipulation in there for out-of-seniority furloughs protecting all West pilots. This will never happen as pilots are too stupid and stubborn for their own good. The Nic award might be binding, but it will not be put to use for 20 years anyway. This is a case of one group not doing what's best for them to spite another group. I understand that they feel entitled to the Nic, and the East screwed them, but in the business world, you have to look passed that. You make the best decision to better your own situation. Neither group is doing that now.

I don't completely disagree with your post. Sure, a contract (that includes a seniority list both sides agreed to comply) may never be reatified. Just means status quo, no pay parity for the East for 20 years.

The other side needs to realize that DOH will never see the light of day on this property.

 

[sniper]

The letter has a positive, reconciliatory tone, so that is good even though it is clearly skewed to the East's position. That is to be expected, of course.

I agree that this changes very little in the present time.

I must take great issue with this line, as someone intimately familiar with the AAA pilot group for over a decade. -

The sins of ALPA that were wrought upon the East pilots happened to our former America West pilots too.

Who exactly is ALPA? An evil terrorist organization? A massive corporate conglomerate?
No, it is the pilots themselves! "We have met the enemy, and it is us!" Pogo

The AAA pilot group has been their own worst enemy since I have been involved (or subjected to) with their leadership.

Parity + 1% for what is essentially a regional airline, killed the golden goose.

Wide open floodgates to "affiliate" carriers (MESA, etc.) leading to decimation of their jobs. 3/5th of all flights under US Airways banner are now non-mainline flights.

Refusal to permit the WO-whorely owned carriers to operate RJ or large turboprop AC, resulting in less control and less profit as well as no leverage or strength in numbers.

Refusal negotiate a flow thru (preventing a flowback and avoiding years of unemployment for their mainline members).

There is much more sordid, misguided history. I hope the gentlemenses @ USAPA can begin to right the ship, but it will never bear fruit until the Nicolau award is resolved.

Perhaps the current USAPA officers and volunteers are not the same mustachioed monsters of career destruction, but sitting idly by while your leaders run amok and run your career into the weeds is hardly an excuse. Aside from owning the election results, a pilot group has many options to affect change from within.

USAPA should take PSA under their wings as well. They are sellouts. No different than USAPA

 

[BeCareful!]

Cowboy75,

You really think the mediator will sit there and listen to 20 years of management's BS?

 

[Cowboy75]

Cowboy75,

You really think the mediator will sit there and listen to 20 years of management's BS?

Contract will be progressing soon, after we legally stop the collusion evident in the company's recent actions.

From what I read this morning, I seriously doubt Wake will be allowed to rule based on his personal opinions any more. Could be wrong, but you guys might have to fight this based on actual legal precedent.

Hey, but I thank your lawyer for opening up this can of worms lately with his baseless motions; it's allowed a bunch of evidence in from our side! Stuff that Wake flatly disregarded. (How did he get so biased?)

I spent more than a week watching the trial and did not notice any bias. Judge Wake did run a tight ship and put Seham in time-out with a few side bars. We were wondering if it was happy hour over there and curious what Seham was drinking.

Were you able to attend the proceedings in Rm 504 last year?

 

[BeCareful!]

I spent more than a week watching the trial and did not notice any bias. Judge Wake did run a tight ship and put Seham in time-out with a few side bars. We were wondering if it was happy hour over there and curious what Seham was drinking.

Were you able to attend the proceedings in Rm 504 last year?

No, but I think the results speak for themselves. USAPA motioned for dismissal based on ripeness from the git go. Denied. So, how smart a cookie is Wake? We went through all of it for nothing. Zero. Nada. It's all going to be dismissed as if it never occurred.

Wake's tight ship, as you call it, really wasn't so much "tight" as it was "biased." If you don't see this yet, trust me, you will soon.

I like when Wake denies the jury a definition of "good faith," even though that's what they were asked to decide on. I think he's one of those "Real Men of Genius."

 

[Tweaker]

USAPA should take PSA under their wings as well. They are sellouts. No different than USAPA

I agree with you whole heartedly, if for no other reason than to prevent the PSA pilot group from continuing their longstanding and shameful practice of underbidding the other whorely owned pilot group(s).

Those weasels are now participating in the PDT negotiations, after securing RJs, large small jets and almost super sized small large jets (90 seats) for themselves. Their contracts have had pitiful pay, work rules etc. in comparison from that of ALG and even PDT. "It's all about me!" is not just a mainline slogan. Result: a 100% growth of their pilot group roster, while ALG/PDT are now at 45 airframes. That is a 60% decline from their combined DHC-8 fleet total of over 105.

We pilots can always be counted on to screw one another for a small "fee." Management plays that tune with glee whilst the commuter trash dances a jig for a pittance.

The only time I was proud to call them my "bruthas" was that new years gift of a fecal deposit in the CLT chief pilot's file cabinet. That was spectacular! Rejoice in the small victories.

 

[Cowboy75]

No, but I think the results speak for themselves. USAPA motioned for dismissal based on ripeness from the git go. Denied. So, how smart a cookie is Wake? We went through all of it for nothing. Zero. Nada. It's all going to be dismissed as if it never occurred.

Wake's tight ship, as you call it, really wasn't so much "tight" as it was "biased." If you don't see this yet, trust me, you will soon.

I like when Wake denies the jury a definition of "good faith," even though that's what they were asked to decide on. I think he's one of those "Real Men of Genius."

I was curious if I may have spoke with you. I had a chance to speak with some of your group during breaks.

If you had the chance to spend over a week in the courthouse listening to all the testimony you might have a different opinion. I'm still scratching my head about 2 of the 3 judges on the 9th. They listen to 15 minutes of arguments from each side to overturn days of testimony. I accept that is how the system works and their decision to punt. Remember, they did not find USAPA innocent. They said to bring it back when it is ripe.

We are just going to stand back and watch while USAPA and the lemmings who support that organization run off the cliff.

 

[Taco Rocket]

I was curious if I may have spoke with you. I had a chance to speak with some of your group during breaks.

If you had the chance to spend over a week in the courthouse listening to all the testimony you might have a different opinion.

Doesn't the appeal make this point moot?

The appeal makes it as if Wake's courtroom never happened. The Supreme Court is not going to take this case (or do you believe it will?).

After DOH is introduced, you will have to start over. This is going to take another 2-5 years and cost a fortune.

I empathize with your reasons for continuance. But your lawyers are going to tell you whatever you want to hear to keep taking your (donated) money. At what point do you cut your losses and cut a deal? Each motion must cost several thousand dollars. And an unsuccessful appeal to the US Supreme Court? $$$$$ By the time this situation is decided some to most of these guys will have retired, further making the case moot.

Go ahead everyone and call me an AH, attack me personally, etc. I am just trying to explore the practicalities of an obviously emotional issue. Give me a logical, practical argument, not an emotional rant.

 

[sniper]

I agree with you whole heartedly, if for no other reason than to prevent the PSA pilot group from continuing their longstanding and shameful practice of underbidding the other whorely owned pilot group(s).

Those weasels are now participating in the PDT negotiations, after securing RJs, large small jets and almost super sized small large jets (90 seats) for themselves. Their contracts have had pitiful pay, work rules etc. in comparison from that of ALG and even PDT. "It's all about me!" is not just a mainline slogan. Result: a 100% growth of their pilot group roster, while ALG/PDT are now at 45 airframes. That is a 60% decline from their combined DHC-8 fleet total of over 105.

We pilots can always be counted on to screw one another for a small "fee." Management plays that tune with glee whilst the commuter trash dances a jig for a pittance.

The only time I was proud to call them my "bruthas" was that new years gift of a fecal deposit in the CLT chief pilot's file cabinet. That was spectacular! Rejoice in the small victories.

You mean their MEC Chairman, ex Chief pilot?

 

[BeCareful!]

I was curious if I may have spoke with you. I had a chance to speak with some of your group during breaks.

If you had the chance to spend over a week in the courthouse listening to all the testimony you might have a different opinion. I'm still scratching my head about 2 of the 3 judges on the 9th. They listen to 15 minutes of arguments from each side to overturn days of testimony. I accept that is how the system works and their decision to punt. Remember, they did not find USAPA innocent. They said to bring it back when it is ripe.

We are just going to stand back and watch while USAPA and the lemmings who support that organization run off the cliff.

Of course, the dissenting judge, Jay Bybee, leaves a lot more people "scratching their heads" than 1800 desert pilots :laugh:

He is the co-author of the most infamous legal memorandum in U.S. history, the "torture memo" of August 1, 2002.

I strongly disagree with him on his views there, as well as the ones he offered in your loss of the Ninth Circuit appeal. According to the Wahington Post, he has expressed regret for signing the interrogation memo during his time at the Justice Department. In short, he is quite obviously the "loose cannon" in the three judge panel. Not surprising he was the dissenting judge; we expected it.

 

[Cowboy75]

Doesn't the appeal make this point moot?

The appeal makes it as if Wake's courtroom never happened. The Supreme Court is not going to take this case (or do you believe it will?).

After DOH is introduced, you will have to start over. This is going to take another 2-5 years and cost a fortune.

I empathize with your reasons for continuance. But your lawyers are going to tell you whatever you want to hear to keep taking your (donated) money. At what point do you cut your losses and cut a deal? Each motion must cost several thousand dollars. And an unsuccessful appeal to the US Supreme Court? $$$$$ By the time this situation is decided some to most of these guys will have retired, further making the case moot.

I'm not here to attack anyone that does not hurl an insult my direction. I found those of us East and West were pretty well behaved at the courthouse. I also understand the East is just as passionate as us.

I can live with the court's decision. The 9th was NOT the last word and we have the funding to continue our fight. It became clear to me what is going to happen to the West pilot group if USAPA is not challenged.

USAPA was not founded to escape ALPA, it was founded to escape binding arbitration. It is people like me and other supporters of Leonidas who are going to make sure we throw out the stop sticks before they drive off jobs we brought to the acquisition.

 

[hockeypilot44]

Doesn't the appeal make this point moot?

The appeal makes it as if Wake's courtroom never happened. The Supreme Court is not going to take this case (or do you believe it will?).

After DOH is introduced, you will have to start over. This is going to take another 2-5 years and cost a fortune.

I empathize with your reasons for continuance. But your lawyers are going to tell you whatever you want to hear to keep taking your (donated) money. At what point do you cut your losses and cut a deal? Each motion must cost several thousand dollars. And an unsuccessful appeal to the US Supreme Court? $$$$$ By the time this situation is decided some to most of these guys will have retired, further making the case moot.

Go ahead everyone and call me an AH, attack me personally, etc. I am just trying to explore the practicalities of an obviously emotional issue. Give me a logical, practical argument, not an emotional rant.

This is the point I was trying to make in an earlier post.

 

[Cowboy75]

Of course, the dissenting judge, Jay Bybee, leaves a lot more people "scratching their heads" than 1800 desert pilots :laugh:

He is the co-author of the most infamous legal memorandum in U.S. history, the "torture memo" of August 1, 2002.

I strongly disagree with him on his views there, as well as the ones he offered in your loss of the Ninth Circuit appeal. According to the Wahington Post, he has expressed regret for signing the interrogation memo during his time at the Justice Department. In short, he is quite obviously the "loose cannon" in the three judge panel. Not surprising he was the dissenting judge; we expected it.

Are you speaking of the "loose cannon" for his views on water-boarding suspected terrorists? If that makes him a loose cannon, I applaud him.

 

[BeCareful!]

Doesn't the appeal make this point moot?

The appeal makes it as if Wake's courtroom never happened. The Supreme Court is not going to take this case (or do you believe it will?).

After DOH is introduced, you will have to start over. This is going to take another 2-5 years and cost a fortune.

I empathize with your reasons for continuance. But your lawyers are going to tell you whatever you want to hear to keep taking your (donated) money. At what point do you cut your losses and cut a deal? Each motion must cost several thousand dollars. And an unsuccessful appeal to the US Supreme Court? $$$$$ By the time this situation is decided some to most of these guys will have retired, further making the case moot.

Go ahead everyone and call me an AH, attack me personally, etc. I am just trying to explore the practicalities of an obviously emotional issue. Give me a logical, practical argument, not an emotional rant.

Good luck getting any real response here, Taco. FI.com is a place to vent, and like the wind, it normally blows from West to East here.

It would seem that by the time the actual road blocking, time-wasting, lawsuit-filing pilots from the old America West Airlines have their next day in court on their fresh new lawsuit avenging the dastardly deeds of the East pilots, who simply want an integration like that of every other group on the property, the west will already be moving up rapidly due to the massive East attrition that's about to occur. Of course, in contrast to all the other groups who integrated by straight DOH, the C&R's USAPA is trying to hand over to them will provide one-way flow for those west pilots who want to move into A330 openings, B767 openings....you know, all that stuff that America West never had anyway. As time goes on, the whining from the boys who think that five year upgrades should be preserved in every merger as if it's a part of a pilot's god-given career expectations will increasingly sound like "blah blahblahblah." Time to get over it and fight the real enemy, your own Mesa-like management team.

 

[BeCareful!]

Are you speaking of the "loose cannon" for his views on water-boarding suspected terrorists? If that makes him a loose cannon, I applaud him.

Well goody good, then. That's fine and you are certainly entitled to that, but the vast majority of this country has moved on and realized the errors of those years. Rush Limbaugh probably agrees with you, though.

 

[Cowboy75]

Well goody good, then. That's fine and you are certainly entitled to that, but the vast majority of this country has moved on and realized the errors of those years. Rush Limbaugh probably agrees with you, though.

Actually I agree with the native New Yorker, Sean Hannity. I also understand why you applaud the most overturned court in the land.

 

[St. Nic]

I also understand why you applaud the most overturned court in the land.

Judge Wake? You see, its like this- you guys missed it, big time! You lost and now you think there is going to be some miracle judgement against USAPA. HA HA! Quite funny my boy!
This seniority thing is about to be wrapped up and you westicles better not keep getting in the way of a decent contract. I know you are used to working for toilet wages, but now that you 've hitched your wagon to us you are going to get a taste of what its like to be a real major airline pilot. Just watch

 

[Cowboy75]

Westicles huh? LOL. You really think I am wet behind the ears being a licensed pilot since 1979? You are soo wrong about our pilot group. Care to compare safety records? I think our pre-merger safety records can do a lot of talking.

America West retired it's certificate with no fatal accidents.

Anxiously awaiting your reply concerning the pre-acquisition record of US Air.

 

[St. Nic]

Westicles huh? LOL. You really think I am wet behind the ears being a licensed pilot since 1979? You are soo wrong about our pilot group. Care to compare safety records? I think our pre-merger safety records can do a lot of talking.

America West retired it's certificate with no fatal accidents.

Anxiously awaiting your reply concerning the pre-acquisition record of US Air.

Unlike you, we actually flew in challenging environments. How long did it take before you even flew a CAT 2 approach? Huh? Care to answer that? How about flying in the most congested airspace on the planet? Huh? What's wrong, cat got your tonge?
You really don't understand much and yes, you are wet behind the ears because you couldnt get hired by a real airline. Did you come from the commuters?

 

[thruthemurk]

I dont believe any of that string involved a Cat II....did it?

 

[Tweaker]

If anyone is interested, I am preparing to be personally waterboarded, even though I am gravely afeared of drowning. I do not feel it is torture, I support its use by our intelligence services, I respect the fact that all our VOLUNTEER Special Forces members are subjected to waterboarding during their training, and I will feel better about defending something after I have experienced it personally.

Like Dick Cheney, it gets results.

 

[vetrider]

Judge Wake? You see, its like this- you guys missed it, big time! You lost and now you think there is going to be some miracle judgement against USAPA. HA HA! Quite funny my boy!
This seniority thing is about to be wrapped up and you westicles better not keep getting in the way of a decent contract. I know you are used to working for toilet wages, but now that you 've hitched your wagon to us you are going to get a taste of what its like to be a real major airline pilot. Just watch

Right. You guys can't even get out of your own way.

 

[vetrider]

Unlike you, we actually flew in challenging environments. How long did it take before you even flew a CAT 2 approach? Huh? Care to answer that? How about flying in the most congested airspace on the planet? Huh? What's wrong, cat got your tonge?
You really don't understand much and yes, you are wet behind the ears because you couldnt get hired by a real airline. Did you come from the commuters?

How long did it take you to use FPV on a localizer approach without the glideslope?

 

[Metrojet]

The folks that write their updates for USAPA think it is settled. They are hoping, which is all they have, that we don't have the funds to take the case to the Supreme Court. If this court does not take the case, all USAPA has to do is present the DOH list to the company which is the trigger that makes the case ripe. The arbitrated list is the the one the company accepted and testimony from the trial affirms the fact. US Airways has filed a lawsuit seeking clarification on the seniority dispute because they realize they will be defendants in a future lawsuit if they accept USAPA's DOH list.

Since USAPA does not allow a message board, (because they don't care to be challenged), the noise machine puts out updates such as the one posted.
The claim in the update that a DOH cramdown and conditions and restrictions on the West is a win is comical.

They want us all to be "good union pilots" in their updates is code for shut up and let a very few decide the direction on the union. We refuse to be a "good union pilots" if they insist on spending our dues money in an attempt to place furloughed pilots ahead of pilots flying at the time our shotgun wedding was announced.

I am so sick of hearing this "furlough out of seniority" - WE ARE UNDER SEPARATE CONTRACTS - I know you know that since you are at a higher hourly rate - and have really tried to get our two pilot groups to parity right?

Metrojet

 

[Cowboy75]

Unlike you, we actually flew in challenging environments. How long did it take before you even flew a CAT 2 approach? Huh? Care to answer that? How about flying in the most congested airspace on the planet? Huh? What's wrong, cat got your tonge?
You really don't understand much and yes, you are wet behind the ears because you couldnt get hired by a real airline. Did you come from the commuters?

You insult every pilot, from every background on the planet. You sir, (or mam) are a disgrace to the profession.

I'm done with you.

 

[Cowboy75]

I am so sick of hearing this "furlough out of seniority" - WE ARE UNDER SEPARATE CONTRACTS - I know you know that since you are at a higher hourly rate - and have really tried to get our two pilot groups to parity right?

Metrojet

Seperate contracts, blame yourself, don't come crying to me.

 

[WickedPissa]

I agree with you whole heartedly, if for no other reason than to prevent the PSA pilot group from continuing their longstanding and shameful practice of underbidding the other whorely owned pilot group(s).

Those weasels are now participating in the PDT negotiations, after securing RJs, large small jets and almost super sized small large jets (90 seats) for themselves. Their contracts have had pitiful pay, work rules etc. in comparison from that of ALG and even PDT. "It's all about me!" is not just a mainline slogan. Result: a 100% growth of their pilot group roster, while ALG/PDT are now at 45 airframes. That is a 60% decline from their combined DHC-8 fleet total of over 105.

We pilots can always be counted on to screw one another for a small "fee." Management plays that tune with glee whilst the commuter trash dances a jig for a pittance.

The only time I was proud to call them my "bruthas" was that new years gift of a fecal deposit in the CLT chief pilot's file cabinet. That was spectacular! Rejoice in the small victories.

-------