Seniority dispute ends at US Airways

[gutshotdraw]

The DOH list has been constructed with conditions and restrictions. It is fair and equitable for all hahahahahahahaha and USAPA has put it up on the website. I suggest all west pilots read it and submit input on the conditions and restrictions, to be a part of the union and particpaite. We are tired of a select few out west holding things up. Lets move forward now that the 9th has settled seniority. double hahahahahahahahahaha

I can't WAIT until the Court comes back very soon saying "Oh yes, USAirways, you will be TOTALLY liable in a lawsuit if you agree to a contract with USAPA that abrogates Nic. Dougie will stop the presses on negotiations that include ANY form of DOH and then pour himself ANOTHER scotch, shake his head, laugh, and wonder how he ever got so lucky to have a bunch of knuckleheads working for 30% below industry standard wages.

 

[xanderman]

The DOH list has been constructed with conditions and restrictions. It is fair and equitable for all and USAPA has put it up on the website. I suggest all west pilots read it and submit input on the conditions and restrictions, to be a part of the union and particpaite. We are tired of a select few out west holding things up. Lets move forward now that the 9th has settled seniority.

In all seriousness I believe it is an instant failure when you tell me what my expectations were/are/should be. Not to mention the east quickly forgets the ills of their career just prior to the merger. There are SEC documents that will paint a less than rosy picture of what the east expectations were/are/should be. Conveniently the east run merger committee disregards that input. You see the problem lies in the fact that you are not, never could be, nor will ever be a neutral third party objectively looking at the facts. Strangely enough we did actually participate in that exact scenario and now you simply don't like the outcome.

Anyhow my issues with your CR's are these:

1. Basically easties can bid into PHX under straight DOH if there is any growth in PHX. They can bid in under straight DOH if a westy bids east leaving a vacancy. Oh! and, you guessed it, if that westy does go east it's straight DOH for them. This effectively creates a little bubble of existence in PHX for the AWA folks who, if they try to move will be punished by DOH, not to mention they can't have any growth if there is any and an easty wants it. Yeah that's fair...

2. Furlough. I am not even going to get into the details except to say with the current CR's you intend to make the west your furlough fodder.

In the end the company seeking and getting immunity from the courts is a super long shot. They, IMO, will not get it thereby rendering anything but Nic moot. If by chance they do get immunity we'll just end up going through with DFR II, possibly having to get a whole new contract, all because your pompous leadership will refuse anything other than what they currently have in their DOH list.

Oh! BTW it's not just a few my friend. It's the entire AWA brotherhood that will fight this until you agree to the Nic or you are all retired.

 

[eaglesview]

1. Basically easties can bid into PHX under straight DOH if there is any growth in PHX. They can bid in under straight DOH if a westy bids east leaving a vacancy. Oh! and, you guessed it, if that westy does go east it's straight DOH for them. This effectively creates a little bubble of existence in PHX for the AWA folks who, if they try to move will be punished by DOH, not to mention they can't have any growth if there is any and an easty wants it. Yeah that's fair...

QUOTE]

What, besides PHX was a westies expectations before the merger? Why does the west never acknowledger the amount of "EAST" flying they are doing now. There has got to be a compromise on both sides.

 

[xanderman]

What, besides PHX was a westies expectations before the merger? Why does the west never acknowledger the amount of "EAST" flying they are doing now. There has got to be a compromise on both sides.

Never attempted to ignore the flying we are doing out east. But then I didn't bring up the flying the east is doing out west. My point is that both entities are doing some flying that was not a part of their program prior to the merger. So tell me why the east should get everything outside of PHX (AND in PHX if there is any growth)? Are we (both carriers) not benefiting from this merger? Why does one side get the rewards? Your argument is pretty one sided... You are right though. There should be a compromise.

Oh...um...the compromise occurred in the arbitration. See the document entitled Nicolau Award for details.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

What, besides PHX was a westies expectations before the merger?

Ummmm, new airplanes, growth, a profitable company, new hires......
What was the expectations of the east pre merger???
Answer-------> Walmart Greeter, 18 year furloughs, 2nd trip to bankruptch, not able to make payroll.......

Why does the west never acknowledger the amount of "EAST" flying they are doing now. There has got to be a compromise on both sides.

How can you expect them to compromise with a bunch of job stealing scumbags who don't keep to their word! I would believe the east scumbags......The west should have just let that airline go out of business and done the world a favor.

 

[Ocity]

The DOH list has been constructed with conditions and restrictions. It is fair and equitable for all and USAPA has put it up on the website. I suggest all west pilots read it and submit input on the conditions and restrictions, to be a part of the union and particpaite. We are tired of a select few out west holding things up. Lets move forward now that the 9th has settled seniority.

The "Select Few" comprise of a Certified class of Litigants composing nearly 40% of the total pilot group. You won't see a single IOTA of "input" as to the trumped up C&R as envisioned by the one guy that wrote them from USAPA. You'd see a lot more union participation if you had say...oh I don't know....a REAL EFFING UNION?!

You're on crack if you think the 9th settled anything. Recall that "thorny" question they didn't want to talk about yet? Well the Companies Lawsuit is forcing that thorny question to the surface.

See you idiots in court. It was a hell of a lot of fun the first time, really looking fwd to it again. Of course, if the company is going to be held as liable as your fake union is; game over.

 

[TWA Dude]

What, besides PHX was a westies expectations before the merger? Why does the west never acknowledger the amount of "EAST" flying they are doing now. There has got to be a compromise on both sides.

The TA governs the allowed flying and you can bet if the West was flying more than allowed USAPA would be all over it. So you can drop that East talking point.

Also you fail to acknowledge what Nicolau pointed out, that the East had more to gain from the merger than the West. The list was crafted with that as a consideration

 

[eaglesview]

Ummmm, new airplanes, growth, a profitable company, new hires......
What was the expectations of the east pre merger???
Answer-------> Walmart Greeter, 18 year furloughs, 2nd trip to bankruptch, not able to make payroll.......

Really?? From the outside looking in it appears as though all "AWA" has done since the merger is shrink. Wasn't there a crew base in Vegas?? Now the west is doing a bunch of flying that used to be done by the east. The world is not black and white. There has to be a compromise.

 

[eaglesview]

The TA governs the allowed flying and you can bet if the West was flying more than allowed USAPA would be all over it. So you can drop that East talking point.

Also you fail to acknowledge what Nicolau pointed out, that the East had more to gain from the merger than the West. The list was crafted with that as a consideration

Drop it because it's true?? I didn't say they were "over the limit." but the statement is true, the west is doing a signifigant amount of "east" flying.

 

[xanderman]

Really?? From the outside looking in it appears as though all "AWA" has done since the merger is shrink. Wasn't there a crew base in Vegas?? Now the west is doing a bunch of flying that used to be done by the east. The world is not black and white. There has to be a compromise.

From the outside looking in? Maybe feigning ignorance. Or maybe you are that slow...I don't know. But having said that I can tell you that AWA was much more healthy. We did have airframes on order. We were upgrading and hiring from the street. What changed? Why is the west in decline? Simple really. Cost structure. AWA enjoyed a 7-8 cent CASM. The east has yet to achieve a CASM lower than 12 cents in the last 2 decades. So what happens to an airplane on a route that realized modest profits under 7-8 cent CASM that now bears the burden of a 12-14 cent CASM? I know I don't have to tell you that it gets removed from that route and put somewhere where it will make some profit. Smart business on behalf of the company but tough for employees. Why? We can clearly see that with the burden of their cost structure it will kill the west. So unfortunately the west will go the way of PSA (IMO). That is the reality. That is what we in the west fear! So tell me why after the life ring was tossed to our drowning victim they should pull us over board to use us for a flotation device? I choose the way of Nicolau. He knew the east would benefit to a much greater degree than the west and he crafted his SLI appropriately. Parker is no genious and therefore will not be able to devise a plan to counter the high CASM in the east. The simple and logical plan is to shrink and focus efforts out east where there can be some modest gains realized. Sorry but there is not a damn thing any east pilot can tell me that will convince me that their C&R's are fair. Especially in the context of my response!

 

[LearLove]

"But having said that I can tell you that AWA was much more healthy. We did have airframes on order. We were upgrading and hiring from the street."

So did Braniff at the end.

 

[xanderman]

So did Braniff at the end.

I'm sorry, what did you say your particular state was at the time?

 

[St. Nic]

I'm sorry, what did you say your particular state was at the time?

Stable with a bunch of valuable slot- controlled routes. The "cash crunch" was an illusion by management.

 

[TWA Dude]

Drop it because it's true?? I didn't say they were "over the limit." but the statement is true, the west is doing a signifigant amount of "east" flying.

Since the merger the East has acquired E190, A330 and B757 equipment. Why don't you mention that? Because just like the the formerly East routes we're flying it's irrelevant to anything. Only Easties and their apologists seem to think there's any significance to bringing it up.

 

[xanderman]

Stable with a bunch of valuable slot- controlled routes. The "cash crunch" was an illusion by management.

BWAAAAAHAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAHAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!

Illusion by management...? Let me guess. The evil mastermind who controlled US Air thought it would be an ingenious plan to fake the demise of your once proud collage of airlines just so they could hook up with the likes of AWA thereby completing their "art" project.

Whatever you say...

Hey! I do love the use of the word "stable" though. Very um...deceitful...yeah that's it! Deceitful!

 

[eaglesview]

From the outside looking in? Maybe feigning ignorance. Or maybe you are that slow...I don't know. But having said that I can tell you that AWA was much more healthy. We did have airframes on order. We were upgrading and hiring from the street. What changed? Why is the west in decline? Simple really. Cost structure. AWA enjoyed a 7-8 cent CASM. The east has yet to achieve a CASM lower than 12 cents in the last 2 decades. So what happens to an airplane on a route that realized modest profits under 7-8 cent CASM that now bears the burden of a 12-14 cent CASM? I know I don't have to tell you that it gets removed from that route and put somewhere where it will make some profit. Smart business on behalf of the company but tough for employees. Why? We can clearly see that with the burden of their cost structure it will kill the west. So unfortunately the west will go the way of PSA (IMO). That is the reality. That is what we in the west fear! So tell me why after the life ring was tossed to our drowning victim they should pull us over board to use us for a flotation device? I choose the way of Nicolau. He knew the east would benefit to a much greater degree than the west and he crafted his SLI appropriately. Parker is no genious and therefore will not be able to devise a plan to counter the high CASM in the east. The simple and logical plan is to shrink and focus efforts out east where there can be some modest gains realized. Sorry but there is not a damn thing any east pilot can tell me that will convince me that their C&R's are fair. Especially in the context of my response!

The increased costs are not surprising. I know you do not believe that operating out of places like PHL BOS DCA LGA ect would be as cheap as PHX. Obviously it is not thre crew costs as they are remeinded daily that they could have had a contract by now had they "played nice." Maybe, just maybe, it is indeed the route structure they operate under. On the bright side obviously there is more business travel out of these places than there will ever be in PHX. Had you merged with any of the legacy carriers your cost would have gone up.

 

[xanderman]

The increased costs are not surprising. I know you do not believe that operating out of places like PHL BOS DCA LGA ect would be as cheap as PHX. Obviously it is not thre crew costs as they are remeinded daily that they could have had a contract by now had they "played nice." Maybe, just maybe, it is indeed the route structure they operate under. On the bright side obviously there is more business travel out of these places than there will ever be in PHX. Had you merged with any of the legacy carriers your cost would have gone up.

I totally agree! No matter who AWA merged with our costs would have gone up. My point is that with the east and their cost structure it makes most sense to operate as much as possible out east because of the point you made. More business fares and better pricing power in general. So with the downsizing of the west, and even the possible elimination of the west operation, how can any east pilots look us in the face and tell us the C&R's are fair and equitable? They can't! And this is precisely why the AWA pilots will not accept anything but the Nic. It was bourn out of a neutral process that employed an independent unbiased third party. If the east doesn't like the outcome, sorry. Cry to G. Nicolau. Get him to change it.

BTW, did you know that Nicolau is the arbiter THEY chose?

 

[eaglesview]

I totally agree! No matter who AWA merged with our costs would have gone up. My point is that with the east and their cost structure it makes most sense to operate as much as possible out east because of the point you made. More business fares and better pricing power in general. So with the downsizing of the west, and even the possible elimination of the west operation, how can any east pilots look us in the face and tell us the C&R's are fair and equitable? They can't! And this is precisely why the AWA pilots will not accept anything but the Nic. It was bourn out of a neutral process that employed an independent unbiased third party. If the east doesn't like the outcome, sorry. Cry to G. Nicolau. Get him to change it.

BTW, did you know that Nicolau is the arbiter THEY chose?

You have good points. Protections for the West have to be built in besides just PHX. But as long as the East sticks with the "gold Standard" and the West sticks with "NIC or bust" nothing will get accomplished. As I have said before there must be middle ground. The East pilots, especially the F/O's will make more money by sticking with the current contract and taking the upgrades they will see because the top half, if not more, of the seniority list is so old . Which raises the question. Why not just put up a short fence. The retirements on the east side will make this whole thing mute.

Way to much testastarone (spelling??) on both sides.

 

[MCDU]

The West protections come with DOH. That means that when your time comes you can go where you want. That includes East bases. So even if they close PHX, with the very old East pilot pilot group, there will be plenty of vacancies and movement when time comes. Trying to defend why a 2005 hire should be able to fill those East positions ahead of 1988 DOH is a non starter and will not happen. It is amazing how shortsighted some are. Pilots are their own worst enemy. No other employee groups have these issues.

M

 

[MCDU]

Since the merger the East has acquired E190, A330 and B757 equipment. Why don't you mention that? Because just like the the formerly East routes we're flying it's irrelevant to anything. Only Easties and their apologists seem to think there's any significance to bringing it up.

I guess you do not mention that these are replacement aircraft. The company has shrunk to min fleet count during this time. Let's talk growth when the East is back to 415 planes ok. And by the way, USAIR operated the E170 prior to the E190. Same type, same training. So the E 190's were nothing new. Kind of like having your 319 replaced by 320's.

M

 

[TWA Dude]

But as long as the East sticks with the "gold Standard" and the West sticks with "NIC or bust" nothing will get accomplished.

You mean not until a court ruling finally settles it. The company's complaint for declaratory judgment aims to do just that.

As I have said before there must be middle ground.

Why must there be a middle ground? Under ALPA we were two sides negotiating as equals. Now the West is a minority where the majority intends to impose a list favorable to them. There is no middle ground because the majority doesn't want there to be any. The USAPA-conceived list is favorable to the East and no C&Rs can alter the fact that it makes the West their furlough-fodder.

When you say the West should compromise what you're really saying is the West should concede. I guess if it weren't for contract law and the RLA being on our side perhaps we would. The DFR trial proved to everybody except Lee $eham that USAPA does NOT have the right to impose a list of their choosing on us. And it doesn't matter that you disagree because Parker and his lawyers see a second DFR trial as a likelihood.

 

[MCDU]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN5B9tKaB8I&feature=youtube_gdata

Watch this starting at around 3:20. A little reality check about AWA which Nic totally missed.

M

 

[eaglesview]

Why must there be a middle ground? Under ALPA we were two sides negotiating as equals. Now the West is a minority where the majority intends to impose a list favorable to them. There is no middle ground because the majority doesn't want there to be any. The USAPA-conceived list is favorable to the East and no C&Rs can alter the fact that it makes the West their furlough-fodder.

.

There has to be a middle ground because the two "solutions" are both rediculous. I can't imagine what a day of work will be like their without a compromise.

As for furlough fodder, give me a break. Are you even remotley aware of the retirement rate the East will have when 65 kicks in. If the company is furloughing at that point there are much bigger issues.

 

[MCDU]

As for furlough fodder, give me a break. Are you even remotly aware of the retirement rate the East will have when 65 kicks in. If the company is furloughing at that point there are much bigger issues.[/QUOTE]


Exactly, very good point. Spot on.

M

 

[TWA Dude]

There has to be a middle ground because the two "solutions" are both rediculous.

There are judges and courts for a reason. There's no room for middle ground when you have $eham's "tyranny of the majority".
edit: you may not have watched the video but during USAPA's election campaign road show in PHX Lee $eham actually said that democracy is "tyranny of the majority". That's why we repeat it so often.

I can't imagine what a day of work will be like their without a compromise.

Watch a few hours of Court TV. Or better yet, my favorite, Judge Judy. That lady rocks.

As for furlough fodder, give me a break. Are you even remotley aware of the retirement rate the East will have when 65 kicks in.

Non sequitur. Who cares what the future retirement rate is if you're getting furloughed?
I will not give you a break especially since you're not even affected by this. And BTW, the East overstates their retirements. 50% of the list will not be gone in five years or whatever. We can count.

If the company is furloughing at that point there are much bigger issues.

Well, I guess you're not so keen on planning for contingencies. We are. Don't forget that AA stapled 2/3 of the TWA pilots just before AA furloughed 3000 pilots. Furlough fodder.
Nicolau recognized that future considerations such as retirements weren't as significant as immediate considerations. And remember, the East had/has far more to gain from the merger than the West.

 

[becket]

Trying to defend why a 2005 hire should be able to fill those East positions ahead of 1988 DOH is a non starter and will not happen.

M

Sorry to tell you this but your "non starter" ended 3 years ago. The process is done. LOA 93 until retirement, or live up to their agreements. Those are the only 2 choices that remain. This intentional obfuscation of the meaning of longevity and seniority hasn't fooled anybody. This half truth might carry some weight with a completely uninformed civilian but those of us in the Industry see right through that B.S.. So did the Jury.

The next Jury will as well...assuming it gets that far. If the company is going to be held liable, (which there is no reason why they WOULDN'T be) This whole thing is over. The company is not going to offer their necks to Leonidas on behalf of the poor downtrodden Easties.

It boggles the mind at how much money the USAPA experiment/organized crime attempt has cost the pilots of US Airways. I'd bet it's approaching close to a BILLION dollars in lost wages and work rules. Well done.

 

[becket]

Let's talk growth when the East is back to 415 planes ok.

M

Geez you guys have a knack for living in the past! US Air had that many airplanes over a DECADE ago. Times change! If you want to go see where all those planes Went, hop on a Jet to the Mojave Desert where you can see literally hundreds of US Airways Jets...F100's black top 737/400's the entire red Metrojet fleet, silver DC-9's and MD-80's. Their all there in the scrapheap.


You guys really need to get a grip on the current reality. The old US Airways is dead. You're LUCKY to have a new lease on life with this abortion of a merger. The East is the ONLY party to gain Anything out of this. The West was doing just fine until Dougweiser decided to strap the East A.K.A. The Anchor Of Death around the necks of all America West Employees.

 

[Cowboy75]

These are very interesting comments from an East pilot. No wonder USAPA does not have a message board.


"Don’t like the message, kill the messenger."
This is the exact reason pilots do not participate in Forums or do not post their name on websites. I have been extremely active over the years and I put my name on everything I publish. Because I do so I have been threatened with emails, I have company materials removed from my work mailbox, my name written on bathroom walls, I have had my mailbox stolen, my kid's school address and Mapquest directions/Map placed on the Yahoo LCC forum threatening child abduction, and they make harrassing phone calls to my home.

I know for fact the Union Hardliner Leaders (UHLs) misrepresent information, mislead people, and flat out lie. And, if you oppose them they resort to intimidation with the actions I listed above. How do I know this? All of these actions occurred to me because I publicly and aggressively fight the UHLs.

In fact, one of their supporters spit in my face on Friday.

Many people will not bare their sole in public in a Forum or on a Website, but they want their message heard. That's why these Forums like Unfactualbias, Pilotloop, Usaviation, USAPAWATCH, and Unbiased Facts are run by anonymous people (the two best websites with factual information are USAPAWATCH and Unbiased Facts). They're not being cowards as alleged by USAPA's supporters, they're simply protecting them self and their families.

I have a deep, deep disdain for the East UHLs who were in charge of the East ALPA MEC during every major failure the East pilot group has sustained and oppose every action by management.

US Airways management twice offered to freeze the East Pilot DB Plan and against the advice of every ALPA and R&I Committee member by "roll call" the UHL controlled MEC said "no" -- now USAPA has created a $45 per month assessment for 18 months in an investigation the PHX Reps said could take 3 years and cost East pilots $1,620. US Airways pilots are throwing money away on the PIC Investigation wild goose chase.

At the beginning of LOA 93 negotiations management offered the NC the America West pilot group contract and JetBlue work rules. Mike Abram the MEC to counter with 85% to 90% of the company's offer and you will get a TA. What Happened? The UHLs were in charge of the East MEC by a 4-8 "roll call" vote and used over 50 "roll call" votes against the desires of every MEC Officer, against the desires of 8 or 12 MEC members, and against the advice of every ALPA Legal and Financial Advisor to become the first MEC or Union Leadership Body to provide management a concession greater than the "ask" for LOA 93.

The UHLs were in charge of the East MEC by a 4-8 "roll call" vote and went against the advice of the Merger Committee, every Merger Advisor, and George Nicolau, which lead to the Nicolau Award used for the AWA-AAA pilot seniority integration.

The UHLs created USAPA.

The UHLs lead the Rico Lawsuit, reneged on the seniority integration promise to the West pilots, and violated the Transition Agreement requirement to accept the Nicolau Award.

The UHLs are dishonest, they harass people, and so do many of their supporters who believe the crap published by the UHLs - who are the highest paid pilots are US Airways. How ironic it is that the UHLs are the highest paid pilots while we suffer in this current pilot "civil war". Yes I fully understand why these websites are anonymous.

There is no pilot who cares about this company, this pilot group, other company employees, and our customers than me. What bothers me is how pilots can support the UHLs and be so uninformed on what truly happens inside the Union, Again, the problem is not ALPA or USAPA, the problem is the UHLs and the pilots who elect/support them.

 

[BeCareful!]

Those comments actually aren't that interesting. They are the spin of a guy likely based in CLT who thinks he understands what a union hardliner is. In reality, the old "UHL's" as he refers to them, did not create USAPA, nor are they running it. The old hardliners from the awful days of ALPA never really were all that hard. They were political poop throwers who accomplished nothing. They, along with the Give-Away-Gang have been removed from power and forced to fly the line under the abysmal triple dip concessionary contract they "negotiated."

 

[BeCareful!]

The West was doing just fine until Dougweiser decided to strap the East A.K.A. The Anchor Of Death around the necks of all America West Employees.

Not according to Doug Parker, Scott Kirby, and several other people way above your pay grade. Does saying this over and over again make you feel better?