Seniority by Date of Hire

[PuffDriver]

Heyas Puffy,

Get over yourself. After you subtract out all the QoL items that were lost when the NWA PWA was jettisoned, the NWA guys were left with what amounts to a COLA raise.

The post BQ DAL contract wasn't that great, and that's what we got left with. Some things are more important than W2.

Nu

Deny, deny, deny. Keep watching. It's coming, voluntarily or involuntarily.

 

[DTW320]

The NWA guys WILL get hit. Why? Because ALPA merger policy makes no mention of DOH, and the right thing to do is keep 97-00 Delta guys and above in the captain positions they are currently in, and the NWA pilots are NOT in.

So....you're saying that NWA does NOT have Captains with 97 and 98 DOH? Really? You're sure about that?

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

OK, how about we do it this way for a national seniority number – say we give a reasonable time period of 3-4 years for all of us to get through this current negotiation cycle. Then on 01/01/2011 or 2012, we rank all pilots in the industry based on their W-2 incomes from airline services and assign an industry wide seniority number. After that, it’s based on date and time of hire at your particular airline. It could done on an individual basis or be done by airline and position such as – All FedEx Captains, followed by UPS Captains followed by LUV Captains and so on.

For this to work, we need every major union on board.

Next we come out with national pay scales for each and every plane and position – industry wide. No more undercutting each other. It’s a national pay scale for our services for flying a plane from A to B. We also would have to develop common monthly hours and duty rigs. Pay and work rules would be adjusted annually by a national committee comprised of members from each union.

At this point, I realize UPS, FedEx, and the LUV pilots would be our top dogs. But, guess what – they deserve it. Next, it would motivate the rest of us to improve our contracts this next time around. Think of how easy any merger would be with a national seniority number. Instead of spending millions on attorneys and all the infighting amongst pilots, the money could be kept in house for us.

Furloughs would go in a common pool and picked up by the next company hiring based on their national seniority number and a minimum “agreed to” level of experience to occupy a particular aircraft and seat or else it goes to the next pilot in line.

So for the initial rank, we agree on a particular date and then rank from the top based on W-2 airline compensation, after which the seniority date would be on date and time of hire at one’s first airline. The proposal would actually give all airline pilots an excuse to go after the big airline contract and max out their compensation during this next cycle. No excuses for bad negotiating or working for a crappy company. At the end of time period, it is what it is.

It’s simple and it’s doable. For the first time in a generation, it would put us – the U.S. pilots in the driver’s seat. We would be in direct control of our destiny, instead of the other way around. If we have to fight, our anger and focus would be directed at our companies for a better contract instead of each other. Any takers??

Or we could continue to do it the old way and maintain this profession on its downward death spiral.

AA767AV8TOR

P.S. I think most of us know what needs to be done. The question is when we determine we’ve had enough and to just go for it.

 

[PHXFLYR]

The USAirways pilots have been the industry whipping boys for awhile now. They were the first to enter BK, no help from ALPA. They were the first to lose their pension WITHOUT a membership ratifiaction vote, no help from ALPA. Then they got an unfair award which did not follow ALPA merger policy from an arbitrator, no help from ALPA.

Do you think that the AWA and USAir pilots would be in this position today if ALPA, or even fellow ALPA pilots, had stepped in the day they lost their pension and said, NO?

We'll never know, because it didn't happen. What DID the AWA guys do to help their fellow ALPA pilots? The answer: lobby actively to overturn the age 60 rule. They simply didn't care that the USAir guys were losing their pension, and their work rules, and their pay, and their medical. AWA pilots didn't have these benefits, so why should they care?

Of course, it wasn't just limited to AWA pilots, but Comair pilots, Delta pilots, Fed Ex pilots, AA pilots, Mesa pilots, all of us.

WE backed the USAir pilots into a corner, and then they turned on us. THEY are a product of US.

Deal with it. It is your fault, not theirs. "Your" collectively that it.

This is what is going so right with the DAL/NWA merger. The Delta pilots have effectively taken one for the team. The majority of the negotiating capital pie is being fed to the skinny NWA pilots to fatten them up. Many Delta pilots are pi$$ed about this. So why did the Delta MEC do it? Because it is the right thing to do. Because anything less than parity would create disparity. The list will happen the same way. The NWA guys WILL get hit. Why? Because ALPA merger policy makes no mention of DOH, and the right thing to do is keep 97-00 Delta guys and above in the captain positions they are currently in, and the NWA pilots are NOT in. A 767 IS a widebody and WILL be considered as such in a merger. Anything less than "seniority parity" will create the AWA/USAirways fiasco.

AWA guys, its YOUR fault.

No it is not. If you want to lay blame lay it at the door of the house of USAIr It was threir C41 that passed a resolution at a local MEC meeting that called for DOH intergration even though they knew Damn well that it was removed from ALPA Mergwer piloicy years ago. It was their negotiating comittee that called for mediation, which ultimaley led to Final and Binding arbitration after the mediator could'nt get to meet us halfway. If anything our negotiating people tried in vain to talk them out of choosing this path. Think they'd listen to us ???? Noooo '''thry were so much smarter than anyone in the room .we were nothing but a bunch of "rookies" Yeah. Right' Look whos crying now.So as you can see,saying that it's the AWAS pilots fault is disengenious at best.

 

[PuffDriver]

So....you're saying that NWA does NOT have Captains with 97 and 98 DOH? Really? You're sure about that?

I am quite aware of the NWA pilots standings. It runs through the whole list, Delta pilots are VASTLY in more senior positions for their DOH than NWA pilots are. It is simply impossible to justify ANY means of making them junior in the new list.

The point of the post was not revolved around that anyway, although as usual NWA guys are pre-wired to freak. The point was that a cornered animal will do anything to survive. The USAirways pilots were that cornered animal, and everyone sees surprised that they found every available means to continue survival.

The Delta MEC avoided that by nixing it before it could ever gain traction by assuring parity--to the non-belief of a few of our very posters on this thread. While this angers many of the Delta pilots, it does not "corner" them. Taking their seniority will corner them, and the powers that be will not let that happen, as it did in the AWA/USA fiasco.

It's that simple, and it's coming. You will have to find a way to deal with it.

BTW, 97 hires are 767 captains for a while now.

 

[DTW320]

I am quite aware of the NWA pilots standings.Apparently Not.....based on the incorrect statement you made about where NWA pilots are "NOT". It runs through the whole list, Delta pilots are VASTLY in more senior positions for their DOH than NWA pilots are. It is simply impossible to justify ANY means of making them junior in the new list. Who says that is the intention or EITHER side?

The point of the post was not revolved around that anyway, although as usual NWA guys are pre-wired to freak. Oh...OK....got it. Calling you on a blatently false assertion = freaking. Have your meds expired or something?The point was that a cornered animal will do anything to survive. The USAirways pilots were that cornered animal, and everyone sees surprised that they found every available means to continue survival.

The Delta MEC avoided that by nixing it before it could ever gain traction by assuring parity--to the non-belief of a few of our very posters on this thread. While this angers many of the Delta pilots, it does not "corner" them. Taking their seniority will corner them, and the powers that be will not let that happen, as it did in the AWA/USA fiasco.Who is going to take it from them? Aren't we involved in a mutual negotiation opn SLI? Doesn't the framework say that the items that cannot be agreed to will be submitted to a 3 arbitrator panel? How do you know what those arbitrators will decide?

It's that simple, and it's coming. You will have to find a way to deal with it. No....none of this is simple and your cocky statements that suggest you are all knowing about the final outcome only serve to make you look even more naive and baselessly arrogant.

BTW, 97 hires are 767 captains for a while now. Wow. They can have all the NYC reserve they want. Plus, there are reasons why new hires had the opportunity to go to right seat on the ER.

Read my original post again. S L O W L Y. Congrats on breathing about 20 things into it that weren't there.

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

BTW, 97 hires are 767 captains for a while now. Wow. They can have all the NYC reserve they want. Plus, there are reasons why new hires had the opportunity to go to right seat on the ER.

Just so we get our facts straight, Those '97 hires that are 767 captains are LAX. NYC, ATL, and CVG 7ER and 767 go to '91 hires.

 

[PuffDriver]

Just so we get our facts straight, Those '97 hires that are 767 captains are LAX. NYC, ATL, and CVG 7ER and 767 go to '91 hires.

Don't confuse them with the facts. It ruins their arguments. It's coming.

 

[PuffDriver]

Who is going to take it from them? Aren't we involved in a mutual negotiation opn SLI? Doesn't the framework say that the items that cannot be agreed to will be submitted to a 3 arbitrator panel? How do you know what those arbitrators will decide?

Well, you're 0 for 0. Your dc-9 guys hanging on by their fingernails are our 767 guys hanging on by theirs. We are more senior with less time, that is going to bite you.

If this integration goes even remotely DOH, you will see Delta pilots performing in the same manner as the USAir pilots. The powers that be are not going to let that happen. "Mutual negotiation" is going very slowly from what I am hearing. This will likely go to arbitration with the arbitrators NOT giving DOH, expressly not in merger policy and backing Delta pilots into a corner ala USAirways.

No....none of this is simple and your cocky statements that suggest you are all knowing about the final outcome only serve to make you look even more naive and baselessly arrogant.

It's not baseless, it just bothers you as to what I have said, and you have no rebuttal. So you throw out the word baseless seeing if it will stick. It won't. It's coming, and time will show you that.

Wow. They can have all the NYC reserve they want. Plus, there are reasons why new hires had the opportunity to go to right seat on the ER.

You should really read the framework agreement again. While you wouldn't sell your soul to go on reserve to NY, you new seniority number may take a hit from guys who would be willing to do just that, and who got hired at Delta after you got hired at NWA. It's coming. We did it to ourselves, there will be no stopping it, and the NWA will pay the price of seniority so that the powers that be do not wake up on the wrong end of a rope for their lack of understanding survival.

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas Puffy,

You've gone through each of the 5 stages of grief since this merger was announced. I see you've worked yourself backwards from resignation to back in between anger and denial.

And you were making such good progress, too.

Better check the documents before you start making wild assumptions.

Nu

 

[nonstop]

This is what is going so right with the DAL/NWA merger. The Delta pilots have effectively taken one for the team. The majority of the negotiating capital pie is being fed to the skinny NWA pilots to fatten them up.

Talk about a wild exaggeration, that's really good for harmony. I guess it's our egos that you expect to fatten since we'll feel so privileged to be called Delta pilots, because it certainly isn't the contract.

You seem to pretend to be in the know, if you were you'd know NWA ALPA is not interested in DOH. DOH would be a windfall for DAL pilots, but of course to understand that you'd have to look beyond tomorrow. Just like you need to look beyond section 2 when comparing contracts.

Foresight and prudence do not seem to be qualities you possess, so I'm not surprised by your comments. The good news for you is we have 1%'s here too, so you'll have plenty of sparring partners for the next 20 years.

 

[Draginass]

But Richard Anderson just this morning said on TV that the pilot deal is done. No worries.

 

[NuGuy]

You seem to pretend to be in the know, if you were you'd know NWA ALPA is not interested in DOH. DOH would be a windfall for DAL pilots, but of course to understand that you'd have to look beyond tomorrow. Just like you need to look beyond section 2 when comparing contracts.

Heyas NS,

SHHHHH! If the average DAL guy figured out what a good deal DOH was for them, they'd be all over it, and then start yammering how they're "taking one for the team".

Hint for the short bus riders: Look past day 1

Nu

 

[PuffDriver]

Talk about a wild exaggeration, that's really good for harmony. I guess it's our egos that you expect to fatten since we'll feel so privileged to be called Delta pilots, because it certainly isn't the contract.

You seem to pretend to be in the know, if you were you'd know NWA ALPA is not interested in DOH. DOH would be a windfall for DAL pilots, but of course to understand that you'd have to look beyond tomorrow. Just like you need to look beyond section 2 when comparing contracts.

Foresight and prudence do not seem to be qualities you possess, so I'm not surprised by your comments. The good news for you is we have 1%'s here too, so you'll have plenty of sparring partners for the next 20 years.

Nobody knows what your bozo merger committee wants. I never claimed to be in the know with regard to that. I do know that progress is going slow at the table, and it is because of unrealistic desires from one side, and it ain't mine. Now, would you guys care to comment on the thread topic?

The gist was that USAir pilots are not scum, that they are merely a product of their environment. It isn't all about the NWA pilots in this world.

 

[DTW320]

Nobody knows what your bozo merger committee wants.Nobody? Really? I never claimed to be in the know with regard to that. I do know that progress is going slow at the table, and it is because of unrealistic desires from one side, and it ain't mine. Now, would you guys care to comment on the thread topic?

The gist was that USAir pilots are not scum, that they are merely a product of their environment. It isn't all about the NWA pilots in this world.

Ahhh. Back to calling the NWA merger committee names. Predictable. Lame.

If you want people to comment on the original topic then why did you drag the whole DAL/NWA situation into this in post #74? Comments about how NWA pilots will get hit and, oh, my personal favorite again, the 767 really IS a widebody. Time to find a new song there puffy. In the new JPWA the 767 pays the same as the 757.....even NWA 757's, and is 12% below A330/7674 rates. But I guess arbitrators are more into cabin width measurements.