Seniority by Date of Hire

[PHXFLYR]

Not true.





Not true.





Frankly, AWA was as bad as USAir, probably worse, as AWA NEVER had A scale wages, retirement, etc. DIP financing was growing on trees at the time. USAir was going nowhere. Although you dream that you were the savior, in truth you were merely an opportunist.

The only"opportunists" here are you and your goon buddies who are trying to implement a DOH seniority list and will use any means available at your disposal to do so And while it's true we never had the wages and retirement you allude to, at least we appreciated
the little we did have, (which is more than you have right now, I might add) ;enjoyed the job for what it was, and unlike you guys, didn't think the world owed us a living just because we flew for an airline . Let's face it. You guys have elevated pissing and moaning to an art form.And this was way before you lost all that you had.


PHXFLYR l

 

[PuffDriver]

The only"opportunists" here are you and your goon buddies who are trying to implement a DOH seniority list and will use any means available at your disposal to do so And while it's true we never had the wages and retirement you allude to, at least we appreciated
the little we did have, (which is more than you have right now, I might add) ;enjoyed the job for what it was, and unlike you guys, didn't think the world owed us a living just because we flew for an airline . Let's face it. You guys have elevated pissing and moaning to an art form.And this was way before you lost all that you had.


PHXFLYR l

There is no "we". I am merey an outside observer. I've read everything, and there is no doubt in my mind that the old man blew it. He screwed up the seniority list royaly. You disagree, I get that.

ALPA merger policy is the problem here, not the USAir guys, not you guys. Fact is that USAir was NOT dead in the water. DIP financing grew on trees back then. Using the death knoll as an excuse for determining that one airline career is more or less valuable than another is just insane. The proof is that by the rime the award actually came out, all pilots who wanted to be back, were back. Some, in fact, never left the property. Perhaps DOH was extreme, fine. That does not justify the punishment handed down, IMO. This was NOT baseball arbitration.

I've said my peace, throw venom all you want. USAir pilots used/are using every tool at their disposal via legal means. Should you expect them to do anything less regarding their career? Would you guys? I think not, as you have already taken it to questionable extremes.

So be it, round and round you go.

 

[Hamburger]

You agree to BINDING ARBITRATION and you should be expected to keep your word.

Thats how it should always be when two union pilot groups merge! Period !

Anything less and you cannot call yourself a man. Integrity is not something to be taken lightly.

 

[PuffDriver]

You agree to BINDING ARBITRATION and you should be expected to keep your word.



Anything less and you cannot call yourself a man. Integrity is not something to be taken lightly.

The USAirways pilots have been the industry whipping boys for awhile now. They were the first to enter BK, no help from ALPA. They were the first to lose their pension WITHOUT a membership ratifiaction vote, no help from ALPA. Then they got an unfair award which did not follow ALPA merger policy from an arbitrator, no help from ALPA.

Do you think that the AWA and USAir pilots would be in this position today if ALPA, or even fellow ALPA pilots, had stepped in the day they lost their pension and said, NO?

We'll never know, because it didn't happen. What DID the AWA guys do to help their fellow ALPA pilots? The answer: lobby actively to overturn the age 60 rule. They simply didn't care that the USAir guys were losing their pension, and their work rules, and their pay, and their medical. AWA pilots didn't have these benefits, so why should they care?

Of course, it wasn't just limited to AWA pilots, but Comair pilots, Delta pilots, Fed Ex pilots, AA pilots, Mesa pilots, all of us.

WE backed the USAir pilots into a corner, and then they turned on us. THEY are a product of US.

Deal with it. It is your fault, not theirs. "Your" collectively that it.

This is what is going so right with the DAL/NWA merger. The Delta pilots have effectively taken one for the team. The majority of the negotiating capital pie is being fed to the skinny NWA pilots to fatten them up. Many Delta pilots are pi$$ed about this. So why did the Delta MEC do it? Because it is the right thing to do. Because anything less than parity would create disparity. The list will happen the same way. The NWA guys WILL get hit. Why? Because ALPA merger policy makes no mention of DOH, and the right thing to do is keep 97-00 Delta guys and above in the captain positions they are currently in, and the NWA pilots are NOT in. A 767 IS a widebody and WILL be considered as such in a merger. Anything less than "seniority parity" will create the AWA/USAirways fiasco.

AWA guys, its YOUR fault.

 

[NuGuy]

This is what is going so right with the DAL/NWA merger. The Delta pilots have effectively taken one for the team. The majority of the negotiating capital pie is being fed to the skinny NWA pilots to fatten them up. Many Delta pilots are pi$$ed about this. So why did the Delta MEC do it? Because it is the right thing to do. Because anything less than parity would create disparity. The list will happen the same way. The NWA guys WILL get hit. Why? Because ALPA merger policy makes no mention of DOH, and the right thing to do is keep 97-00 Delta guys and above in the captain positions they are currently in, and the NWA pilots are NOT in. A 767 IS a widebody and WILL be considered as such in a merger. Anything less than "seniority parity" will create the AWA/USAirways fiasco.

Heyas Puffy,

Get over yourself. After you subtract out all the QoL items that were lost when the NWA PWA was jettisoned, the NWA guys were left with what amounts to a COLA raise.

The post BQ DAL contract wasn't that great, and that's what we got left with. Some things are more important than W2.

Nu

 

[PuffDriver]

Heyas Puffy,

Get over yourself. After you subtract out all the QoL items that were lost when the NWA PWA was jettisoned, the NWA guys were left with what amounts to a COLA raise.

The post BQ DAL contract wasn't that great, and that's what we got left with. Some things are more important than W2.

Nu

Deny, deny, deny. Keep watching. It's coming, voluntarily or involuntarily.

 

[DTW320]

The NWA guys WILL get hit. Why? Because ALPA merger policy makes no mention of DOH, and the right thing to do is keep 97-00 Delta guys and above in the captain positions they are currently in, and the NWA pilots are NOT in.

So....you're saying that NWA does NOT have Captains with 97 and 98 DOH? Really? You're sure about that?

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

OK, how about we do it this way for a national seniority number – say we give a reasonable time period of 3-4 years for all of us to get through this current negotiation cycle. Then on 01/01/2011 or 2012, we rank all pilots in the industry based on their W-2 incomes from airline services and assign an industry wide seniority number. After that, it’s based on date and time of hire at your particular airline. It could done on an individual basis or be done by airline and position such as – All FedEx Captains, followed by UPS Captains followed by LUV Captains and so on.

For this to work, we need every major union on board.

Next we come out with national pay scales for each and every plane and position – industry wide. No more undercutting each other. It’s a national pay scale for our services for flying a plane from A to B. We also would have to develop common monthly hours and duty rigs. Pay and work rules would be adjusted annually by a national committee comprised of members from each union.

At this point, I realize UPS, FedEx, and the LUV pilots would be our top dogs. But, guess what – they deserve it. Next, it would motivate the rest of us to improve our contracts this next time around. Think of how easy any merger would be with a national seniority number. Instead of spending millions on attorneys and all the infighting amongst pilots, the money could be kept in house for us.

Furloughs would go in a common pool and picked up by the next company hiring based on their national seniority number and a minimum “agreed to” level of experience to occupy a particular aircraft and seat or else it goes to the next pilot in line.

So for the initial rank, we agree on a particular date and then rank from the top based on W-2 airline compensation, after which the seniority date would be on date and time of hire at one’s first airline. The proposal would actually give all airline pilots an excuse to go after the big airline contract and max out their compensation during this next cycle. No excuses for bad negotiating or working for a crappy company. At the end of time period, it is what it is.

It’s simple and it’s doable. For the first time in a generation, it would put us – the U.S. pilots in the driver’s seat. We would be in direct control of our destiny, instead of the other way around. If we have to fight, our anger and focus would be directed at our companies for a better contract instead of each other. Any takers??

Or we could continue to do it the old way and maintain this profession on its downward death spiral.

AA767AV8TOR

P.S. I think most of us know what needs to be done. The question is when we determine we’ve had enough and to just go for it.

 

[PHXFLYR]

The USAirways pilots have been the industry whipping boys for awhile now. They were the first to enter BK, no help from ALPA. They were the first to lose their pension WITHOUT a membership ratifiaction vote, no help from ALPA. Then they got an unfair award which did not follow ALPA merger policy from an arbitrator, no help from ALPA.

Do you think that the AWA and USAir pilots would be in this position today if ALPA, or even fellow ALPA pilots, had stepped in the day they lost their pension and said, NO?

We'll never know, because it didn't happen. What DID the AWA guys do to help their fellow ALPA pilots? The answer: lobby actively to overturn the age 60 rule. They simply didn't care that the USAir guys were losing their pension, and their work rules, and their pay, and their medical. AWA pilots didn't have these benefits, so why should they care?

Of course, it wasn't just limited to AWA pilots, but Comair pilots, Delta pilots, Fed Ex pilots, AA pilots, Mesa pilots, all of us.

WE backed the USAir pilots into a corner, and then they turned on us. THEY are a product of US.

Deal with it. It is your fault, not theirs. "Your" collectively that it.

This is what is going so right with the DAL/NWA merger. The Delta pilots have effectively taken one for the team. The majority of the negotiating capital pie is being fed to the skinny NWA pilots to fatten them up. Many Delta pilots are pi$$ed about this. So why did the Delta MEC do it? Because it is the right thing to do. Because anything less than parity would create disparity. The list will happen the same way. The NWA guys WILL get hit. Why? Because ALPA merger policy makes no mention of DOH, and the right thing to do is keep 97-00 Delta guys and above in the captain positions they are currently in, and the NWA pilots are NOT in. A 767 IS a widebody and WILL be considered as such in a merger. Anything less than "seniority parity" will create the AWA/USAirways fiasco.

AWA guys, its YOUR fault.

No it is not. If you want to lay blame lay it at the door of the house of USAIr It was threir C41 that passed a resolution at a local MEC meeting that called for DOH intergration even though they knew Damn well that it was removed from ALPA Mergwer piloicy years ago. It was their negotiating comittee that called for mediation, which ultimaley led to Final and Binding arbitration after the mediator could'nt get to meet us halfway. If anything our negotiating people tried in vain to talk them out of choosing this path. Think they'd listen to us ???? Noooo '''thry were so much smarter than anyone in the room .we were nothing but a bunch of "rookies" Yeah. Right' Look whos crying now.So as you can see,saying that it's the AWAS pilots fault is disengenious at best.

 

[PuffDriver]

So....you're saying that NWA does NOT have Captains with 97 and 98 DOH? Really? You're sure about that?

I am quite aware of the NWA pilots standings. It runs through the whole list, Delta pilots are VASTLY in more senior positions for their DOH than NWA pilots are. It is simply impossible to justify ANY means of making them junior in the new list.

The point of the post was not revolved around that anyway, although as usual NWA guys are pre-wired to freak. The point was that a cornered animal will do anything to survive. The USAirways pilots were that cornered animal, and everyone sees surprised that they found every available means to continue survival.

The Delta MEC avoided that by nixing it before it could ever gain traction by assuring parity--to the non-belief of a few of our very posters on this thread. While this angers many of the Delta pilots, it does not "corner" them. Taking their seniority will corner them, and the powers that be will not let that happen, as it did in the AWA/USA fiasco.

It's that simple, and it's coming. You will have to find a way to deal with it.

BTW, 97 hires are 767 captains for a while now.