Seniority by Date of Hire

[DTW320]

So, like I said, why aren't you guys demanding arbitration? You can't lose right? Advantage DAL in every case right?? Why even engage in the sham of "negotiations" on SLI? Seems like you are selling yourselves short by even thinking of compromise instead of going right to the arbitrator. Right? Hmmmmm....

 

[Citjok]

I'll jump in on this one. I think the USAir deal was pretty fair. I would have given the East pilots a little more consideration for future retirements, but not a whole lot. And I certainly would not have put any furloughed pilots ahead of any actively flying West pilots.

There were active East pilots at the time of the merger announcement that were placed at the bottom (furloughed from USAirways) on the nic list simply because ALPA used an old seniority list and never bother to give an updated list to the arbitrator.

 

[Guppiedriver]

There were active East pilots at the time of the merger announcement that were placed at the bottom (furloughed from USAirways) on the nic list simply because ALPA used an old seniority list and never bother to give an updated list to the arbitrator.

Were there black helicopters flying overhead at the time? GMAFB

 

[FDJ2]

So, like I said, why aren't you guys demanding arbitration? You can't lose right?

Because negotiated results are better for everyone in the long term.

If we were about sticking it to the NWA pilots we wouldn't have negotiated the JPWA.

Ultimately we'll have a negotiated or arbitrated result which will be fair and will consider contract values, aircraft, orders and retirements. Each will be given consideration, the fact that DAL has over 100 wide bodied 767s and nearly twice as many 757s will not be ignored, as much as some would like it to be.

 

[FDJ2]

There were active East pilots at the time of the merger announcement that were placed at the bottom (furloughed from USAirways) on the nic list simply because ALPA used an old seniority list and never bother to give an updated list to the arbitrator.

It's not the list that ALPA used, it's the list that Nicolau used. AAA had a list they wanted considered and AWA had a different one. Nicolau used the list that was in effect at the time of the merger. If you brought a job to the merger at that time, you were senior to someone who didn't.

 

[PuffDriver]

Ahhh. Back to calling the NWA merger committee names. Predictable. Lame.

If you want people to comment on the original topic then why did you drag the whole DAL/NWA situation into this in post #74? Comments about how NWA pilots will get hit and, oh, my personal favorite again, the 767 really IS a widebody. Time to find a new song there puffy. In the new JPWA the 767 pays the same as the 757.....even NWA 757's, and is 12% below A330/7674 rates. But I guess arbitrators are more into cabin width measurements.

I brought the NWA/DAL arrangement into the mix by explaining how RIGHT our merger is going when compared to how WRONG the USAIR/AWA merger is going. I included the reasons why they were both going their respective ways. Then the NWA usuals have to jump into the mix with their paranoia.

Psst..BTW the new pay rates cannot be used as a bargaining position with regard to arbitration in the SLI. FYI. It's coming. Also, the arbitrator WILL know what aircraft are coming and what career expectations are with regard to the two groups. It's coming.

 

[eaglesview]

Psst..BTW the new pay rates cannot be used as a bargaining position with regard to arbitration in the SLI. FYI. It's coming. Also, the arbitrator WILL know what aircraft are coming and what career expectations are with regard to the two groups. It's coming.

Career expectations?? What is that? I thought this was an airline forum!

 

[NuGuy]

Just curious, a previous poster from NWA stated that DOH would be a windfall for DAL, was that TIC or do you think that NWA actually deserves better than DOH?

Heyas,

DOH would be a windfall for MANY (I dare say the majority) on the DAL list due to the demographic difference.

You might take a slight hit on day one, but as NWA guys continue to retire (add another 50 gone for September), the relatively younger, senior DAL guys would enjoy direct access to their seats. In 5 years, the DAL guys would OWN most of the former NWA WB left seats.

Most younger/junior NWA guys would get a SLIGHT advantage in % on day one (LOW single digits), but as DAL guys filled in to what were previously NWA retirements, their projected percentages get raped 5, 10 and 15 years down the road.

If you guys could pile off the short bus for a coffee break, you might look down the road a few years.

Nu

 

[michael707767]

DOH would be a windfall for MANY (I dare say the majority) on the DAL list due to the demographic difference.

DOH would be a travesty for the majority of Delta pilots. Frankly I think relative position would be a windfall for the majority of NWA pilots.

 

[clippyrip]

Psst..BTW the new pay rates cannot be used as a bargaining position with regard to arbitration in the SLI. FYI. It's coming. Also, the arbitrator WILL know what aircraft are coming and what career expectations are with regard to the two groups. It's coming.

Maybe if you keep repeating this an arbitrator will see it and agree.

 

[vprMatrix]

Heyas,

DOH would be a windfall for MANY (I dare say the majority) on the DAL list due to the demographic difference.

You might take a slight hit on day one, but as NWA guys continue to retire (add another 50 gone for September), the relatively younger, senior DAL guys would enjoy direct access to their seats. In 5 years, the DAL guys would OWN most of the former NWA WB left seats.

Most younger/junior NWA guys would get a SLIGHT advantage in % on day one (LOW single digits), but as DAL guys filled in to what were previously NWA retirements, their projected percentages get raped 5, 10 and 15 years down the road.

If you guys could pile off the short bus for a coffee break, you might look down the road a few years.

Nu

Let me see if I have got this. You want to be even further advantaged now, so that you can also be further advantaged for the next 5, 10, 15 years.

Got it. Hmm, stop for coffee or keep trucken on the short bus...:erm:

 

[JAM-BRO]

I think everyone should shut up and take a breather. Let the process play itself out....

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Can I get a big F'n AMEN!

I think everyone should shut up and take a breather. Let the process play itself out....

 

[licorice]

Heyas,

DOH would be a windfall for MANY (I dare say the majority) on the DAL list due to the demographic difference.

You might take a slight hit on day one, but as NWA guys continue to retire (add another 50 gone for September), the relatively younger, senior DAL guys would enjoy direct access to their seats. In 5 years, the DAL guys would OWN most of the former NWA WB left seats.

Most younger/junior NWA guys would get a SLIGHT advantage in % on day one (LOW single digits), but as DAL guys filled in to what were previously NWA retirements, their projected percentages get raped 5, 10 and 15 years down the road.

If you guys could pile off the short bus for a coffee break, you might look down the road a few years.

Nu

Slight hit? slight gain? Ok nuguy, either you have a different definition of "windfall" or you haven't really looked at the demographics closely. Most senior DAL 1985 hire (sept.) is #211. Most senior NWA sept. 1985 hire is #1350! DAL guy is at 2.8% relative, NWA guy is at 25.9% relative! With your DOH scenario, both guys would be at the same place on the combined list...at about 1561, resulting in a 10% loss for the DAL guy and a 13.5% gain for the NWA guy. Our DAL guy at 2.8% holds significantly better than your 25.9% guy. Going in staight seniority (pilots by category) order, DAL guy holds 767-400ER, NWA guy holds A-320! Under DOH, by straight seniority order on the combined list, DAL guy is demoted to domestic 757/767 (falling through the entire 639 capt. 767ER category) NWA guy is promoted to domestic 757/767. Now, new scenario, DAL guy at 25.9% is #1890 DOH Apr. 1988, and holds in staight seniority order...you guessed it! -737-800! --the same as your 25% guy! Now, age demographics: NWA hired approx. 830 pilots between 1981 and sept. 1985, from #520 to #1350, now say your top 500/our top 210 (1981 and prior) retire---that leaves the entire top 800 slots to NWA (by DOH) with ages that are equal to the most senior DAL guys. Major, major windfall! For you DOH guys...or should I say,-for you guys who would gain disproportionately from DOH: WHY DO YOU THINK YOU DESERVE A WINDFALL BASED ON AIRCRAFT, ROUTE SYSTEMS, BASES, AND PAYRAISES THAT NEITHER YOU, NOR YOUR PILOT GROUP, NOR YOUR COMPANY BROUGHT TO THE MERGER? (namely- the Delta aircraft, route systems, bases, and payraises)...

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Lic,

It all depends on what your sen/age is today on wheter doh(btw I think doh is a nonstarter) is a winfall(or is it windfall). A snapshot for me(1995 hire) using 01/08 sen. #s follows:

Date NWA DAL
01/08 59% 55%
01/13 59% 55%
01/18 41% 44%
01/23 16% 21%
01/28 .02% .019%
01/33 .0020% .0009%
01/35 .00019% .00008%

As you can see I don't get back to my present projections until somewhere btw 2018 and 2023. Hardly call doh a winfall/windfall. Doh using different doh's will give you vastly different #s. Anyway the sli will not be solved here. Take care and good luck to us all.

Slight hit? slight gain? Ok nuguy, either you have a different definition of "windfall" or you haven't really looked at the demographics closely. Most senior DAL 1985 hire (sept.) is #211. Most senior NWA sept. 1985 hire is #1350! DAL guy is at 2.8% relative, NWA guy is at 25.9% relative! With your DOH scenario, both guys would be at the same place on the combined list...at about 1561, resulting in a 10% loss for the DAL guy and a 13.5% gain for the NWA guy. Our DAL guy at 2.8% holds significantly better than your 25.9% guy. Going in staight seniority (pilots by category) order, DAL guy holds 767-400ER, NWA guy holds A-320! Under DOH, by straight seniority order on the combined list, DAL guy is demoted to domestic 757/767 (falling through the entire 639 capt. 767ER category) NWA guy is promoted to domestic 757/767. Now, new scenario, DAL guy at 25.9% is #1890 DOH Apr. 1988, and holds in staight seniority order...you guessed it! -737-800! --the same as your 25% guy! Now, age demographics: NWA hired approx. 830 pilots between 1981 and sept. 1985, from #520 to #1350, now say your top 500/our top 210 (1981 and prior) retire---that leaves the entire top 800 slots to NWA (by DOH) with ages that are equal to the most senior DAL guys. Major, major windfall! For you DOH guys...or should I say,-for you guys who would gain disproportionately from DOH: WHY DO YOU THINK YOU DESERVE A WINDFALL BASED ON AIRCRAFT, ROUTE SYSTEMS, BASES, AND PAYRAISES THAT NEITHER YOU, NOR YOUR PILOT GROUP, NOR YOUR COMPANY BROUGHT TO THE MERGER? (namely- the Delta aircraft, route systems, bases, and payraises)...

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

I meant somewhere btw 2023 and 2028.

 

[licorice]

Lic,

It all depends on what your sen/age is today on wheter doh(btw I think doh is a nonstarter) is a winfall(or is it windfall). A snapshot for me(1995 hire) using 01/08 sen. #s follows:

Date NWA DAL
01/08 59% 55%
01/13 59% 55%
01/18 41% 44%
01/23 16% 21%
01/28 .02% .019%
01/33 .0020% .0009%
01/35 .00019% .00008%

As you can see I don't get back to my present projections until somewhere btw 2018 and 2023. Hardly call doh a winfall/windfall. Doh using different doh's will give you vastly different #s. Anyway the sli will not be solved here. Take care and good luck to us all.

Cobra: Have you looked to see what the DAL guy's projected seniority percentage is under DOH? Between Jan. 1992 and Oct. 1996 DAL hired zero, while NWA hired ~ 700. The first guy hired at DAL in Oct. 1996 is at 50%, the guy hired by NWA in Oct. 1996 is at 70%. Under DOH they would both be at 58%, a loss of 8% for the Dal guy and a gain of 12% for the NWA guy! (these figures are based on 7300 DAL and 5200 NWA pilots) That is an immediate windfall, which, I would imagine, would last for quite a while. In my previous post/scenario, under DOH, after all DAL and NWA pilots hired during or before 1981 have retired, -it would leave approx. 800 NWA pilots solely, occupying the top of the list. I agree DOH is a non-starter, and I do hope we can come as close as possible to a fair list for both groups.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Lic,

I don't know the answer just giving an example of my posistion. Every segment of the sen. list has its own set of unique circumstances. Throw in the varying ages we were hired at and it makes for a tuff job for the negotiators. Lets hope they can come to an agreement that is relativaly fair for all. No gross wind/win falls. Rest assured there will be segments of both lists that take big hits and wind/win falls.

Adios

Cobra: Have you looked to see what the DAL guy's projected seniority percentage is under DOH? Between Jan. 1992 and Oct. 1996 DAL hired zero, while NWA hired ~ 700. The first guy hired at DAL in Oct. 1996 is at 50%, the guy hired by NWA in Oct. 1996 is at 70%. Under DOH they would both be at 58%, a loss of 8% for the Dal guy and a gain of 12% for the NWA guy! (these figures are based on 7300 DAL and 5200 NWA pilots) That is an immediate windfall, which, I would imagine, would last for quite a while. In my previous post/scenario, under DOH, after all DAL and NWA pilots hired during or before 1981 have retired, -it would leave approx. 800 NWA pilots solely, occupying the top of the list. I agree DOH is a non-starter, and I do hope we can come as close as possible to a fair list for both groups.

 

[waveflyer]

seniority strictly by DOH will only work if there was a national seniority list. Otherwise, you take away the advantages that pilots gain when they make moves. You can't expect to gain anything by staying still at one company- or to take away another pilot's gain who applied and got hired by a company that has grown faster.

It's a big risk to make a move in the airlines- it's not fair to those pilots who have done that to say that you are more valuable b/c you were unwilling to move.

Therefore, percentage integration is the capitalistic way to solve seniority issues.

Your reward for longevity is your payrate- it should not be seniority also. Two different words are used to explain two very different aspects of our career.