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Screws are put to Mesaba AGAIN

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Jimdandy

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 7, 2005
Posts
124
Looks like NWA missed a 2nd payment. I think the harder they put the screws to us at this point the more they are looking for concessions so they can grow us with new E-jets at super cheap rates. If this ain't the case XJ needs to shut down now so NWA can feel how much they will miss us. That means no ground handling in msp, dtw, cvg, mem either, for pinnacle or us. that would cost them about 2 billion a year.

How come USair United wasn't this harsh in bankruptcy. HMMMMM. Well because their regional CEOs wouldn't stand for it. XJ and pinnacle are now part of the creditors sitting at the table with the judge deciding NWAs fate. Why aren't they doing anything or than talking? They do have some power.
 
US Airways was that harsh!!! It just seems worse when its right in your back yard. PDT/ALG/PSA took pay concessions!! PDT/ALG even had to furlough pilots!!
When US Airways went into Chpt.11 all the WO's were included in that!! You will now become pawns in a chess game! I see management playing all the NWA Express against each other (We had it here at US Airways Express) and dangling the growth and new jet carrots in your face. And of course like all pilot groups the back stabbing with begin.
All I can say, is try and ride this storm out. Hopefully you have much stronger union leadership then the 3 WO's over here have. And try to keep as much communication lines open as possible amoungst each other. Try and check you ego's at the door when you come to work. If you guys all work together, it could be a better out-come then we had. GOOD LUCK!!!!!
 
And don't forget the BK Judge was a lawyer that represented Gary Wilson's investment company about 20 years ago. That doesn't seem to be a problem these days though, with all the checks and balances in the current administartion.
icon8.gif
 
Jimdandy said:
If this ain't the case XJ needs to shut down now so NWA can feel how much they will miss us.
Click to expand...

Yup, I'm sure the accountants would miss that $65 million per quarter red ink for Airlink operations. Oh yea, lets not forget the subsidized landing fees, aircraft leases, station handling, marketing and my personal favorite, the cheapo jet fuel.

Truth be told, in the entire history of regional operators, there never was any money in "regional" operations. Only sleigh of hand on a balance sheet. Only a couple of "niche" operators ever made any cash, and they never saw an RJ.

For historical perspective, not even the local service carriers back in the day of regulation could make any money. They had to be propped up by subsidies.

But look at the operators that are making consistent money...SWA, AirTran, JetBlue (well, maybe not this quarter)...not an RJ in sight.


Nu
 
NuGuy said:
Yup, I'm sure the accountants would miss that $65 million per But look at the operators that are making consistent money...SWA, AirTran, JetBlue (well, maybe not this quarter)...not an RJ in sight.


Nu
Click to expand...

Remember these airlines do not operate in any small towns! Because they know they couldn't fill a 320 or 737 and won't go into any markets they might lose money at!! Thats were you can fill up a 50 seat RJ or Turbo Prop!! How would you like to drive 3 hrs to the nearest airport to jump on SWA! Not me, I would rather drive 15 minutes to my local regional airport and fly out there.
SWA, AirTran, Jetblue better watch there backs now!! US Airways and soon NWA, Delta with its fleet, routes and cost structure will be in much better shape to put a beating on these guys. I believe that SWA fuel Hedging ends soon, so they will pay more in gas.. Talks at Airways about adding Q400's, which I believe Horizon is using to battle SWA out west.
Regionals make money!! Management can twist the numbers all they want. During our BK at PDT we were told by Dave Siegal that we made no money and even lost cash. Then we hear from our new CEO Doug Parker that PDT is a highly profitable operation.... Whatever!!!!
 
Yea air wisconsin was picked up by usair your point? They were asked if they would fly for a certain amount of money and they said no way and left for usair.

Nuguy if our mgmt had the guts they could shut down ops and that would ground not only us but also Pinaccle in MSP, DTW. NWA would be losing money like crazy and would go under in about a month or two. The only problem is our mgmt is being told to just let NWA do anything they want becuase if worse comes to worse we will protect you with a nice golden parachute.
 
Jimdandy said:
Nuguy if our mgmt had the guts they could shut down ops and that would ground not only us but also Pinaccle in MSP, DTW. NWA would be losing money like crazy and would go under in about a month or two.
Click to expand...

Uh, yea...you just keep chanting that to yourself. If it weren't for NWA, you'd be another FlyI, but without the big airplanes, and trying to fly people between Fort Dodge and St. Cloud. Try running those Avros independently.

XJ and 9E are contractors. Remember that. Your company is going to get jacked just like all the other unsecured creditors, and sh!t rolls downhill. When XJ and 9E have to start paying retail on jet fuel, you don't think it's going to come out of management's pay check, do you?

I saw the same denial of reality when I was at PDT. "We're too important...we make too much money...we're a quality operation." Yup...ask the top %10 of the list at PDT (or ALG) where that got them.

Guess what boys, for the small jet providers, it's a game of musical chairs...for XJ/9E the music has stopped, and there no chairs left that aren't in the desert.

I will grant XJ one thing. At least with the Saabs, they might be able to go after some EAS money and hope to break even. 9E is screwed.

Nu
 
Nuguy must be in Dougie's pocket. Good luck with the NWA fear and intimidation campaign.
 
NuGuy,
All valid points. Question for you is, who is going to fly the routes and planes to the cities that we at XJ currently serve? Is NW going to pull out or cut in half service to DAY, TVC, MLU, BGM, AZO, GRB, etc....? I kind of doubt it.

We know where mainline pilots fall when it comes to flying little airplanes.....they are too good for that. So, unless their is a new push at NW ALPA to get the Saabs and CRJ's on their property, NW will be taking DC-9s on all the current feeder routes. Yes, that seems to be a very sound business model.
 
Nuguy:

Better to be thought of as an idiot and remain silent then to open your trap and remove all doubt.

The simple truth is this: NWA guys see all the regional airport flying as beneath them but it is, nonetheless, REQUIRED for NWA revenue. We are dependent on EACH OTHER. One cannot exist independently from the other. Until that is realized by ALL Red-tail flyers, we will only continue to play into Mgmt's hands.
 
Dodge,

You may have hit the winning number without even knowing it.

If NWA wants to get looking like SWA or JB, you know, profitable, then they may just have to curtail their flying some. Perhaps they should get rid of all their aircraft except for the A319/20's and the 747-400's and only service 1 or 2 cities in every third state and do just a little Pacific flying. NWA has proven that they can't do a good job with their current structure so maybe this is the answer. It couldn't produce any worse results.
 
Dodge said:
NuGuy,
All valid points. Question for you is, who is going to fly the routes and planes to the cities that we at XJ currently serve? Is NW going to pull out or cut in half service to DAY, TVC, MLU, BGM, AZO, GRB, etc....? I kind of doubt it.

We know where mainline pilots fall when it comes to flying little airplanes.....they are too good for that. So, unless their is a new push at NW ALPA to get the Saabs and CRJ's on their property, NW will be taking DC-9s on all the current feeder routes. Yes, that seems to be a very sound business model.
Click to expand...

Heyas Dodge,

Valid points, but remember, NWA management has stated that, while no cities are going to lose service entirely, frequencies will be curtailed. Eliminate 2-3 RJ frequencies, and you have enough passengers for a DC-9 flight, which even with the higher cost of fuel, has a CASM half of what an RJ flight costs. You will note that in the bankruptcy filings, the only DC-9s that are to be parked are those that are leased, and that amounts to only 4 (out of a fleet count of 140+).

Regarding your second point...it is NWA MECs policy to protect scope, not the pension, as the number one priority. To that end, securing NWA jobs through the operation of 55 seat aircraft and up is on the table, even with reduced pay rates.

Is this a sellout? Isn't this lowering the bar? Maybe. But witness what happens when you lose control (or never had) control of your flying. Ask our brothers at Comair and TSA what happens.

In essence, NWA ALPA is left with two choices. Do the flying at reduced rates or watch someone else do the flying at reduced rates. It's better to capture the flying, and live to fight another day.

While the argument often comes up: "why would NWA do this flying when it can be done cheaper at XJ and 9E. Even if the pilots offer to do it cheaper, you still have mechanics, FA's, rampers and so on". Well, that argument is no longer valid, as the costs for those labor groups are going to be reduced by hook or by crook. Soon you get to the same point that AirTran came to, and realize that you can do a better job for less money yourself.

Nu
 
captpetefam said:
Nuguy:

Better to be thought of as an idiot and remain silent then to open your trap and remove all doubt.

The simple truth is this: NWA guys see all the regional airport flying as beneath them but it is, nonetheless, REQUIRED for NWA revenue. We are dependent on EACH OTHER. One cannot exist independently from the other. Until that is realized by ALL Red-tail flyers, we will only continue to play into Mgmt's hands.
Click to expand...

Hrmmm, the only people who think that seem to be XJ or 9E guys. Since I value the opinion of my own pilot group over your august selves, what you think of me matters not.

As for NWA guys thinking that "regional" flying is beneath them, you could not be more incorrect. The plan is to capture as much red tail flying as possible.

Nu
 
NuGuy said:
Heyas Dodge,

Valid points, but remember, NWA management has stated that, while no cities are going to lose service entirely, frequencies will be curtailed. Eliminate 2-3 RJ frequencies, and you have enough passengers for a DC-9 flight, which even with the higher cost of fuel, has a CASM half of what an RJ flight costs. You will note that in the bankruptcy filings, the only DC-9s that are to be parked are those that are leased, and that amounts to only 4 (out of a fleet count of 140+).

Regarding your second point...it is NWA MECs policy to protect scope, not the pension, as the number one priority. To that end, securing NWA jobs through the operation of 55 seat aircraft and up is on the table, even with reduced pay rates.

Is this a sellout? Isn't this lowering the bar? Maybe. But witness what happens when you lose control (or never had) control of your flying. Ask our brothers at Comair and TSA what happens.

In essence, NWA ALPA is left with two choices. Do the flying at reduced rates or watch someone else do the flying at reduced rates. It's better to capture the flying, and live to fight another day.

While the argument often comes up: "why would NWA do this flying when it can be done cheaper at XJ and 9E. Even if the pilots offer to do it cheaper, you still have mechanics, FA's, rampers and so on". Well, that argument is no longer valid, as the costs for those labor groups are going to be reduced by hook or by crook. Soon you get to the same point that AirTran came to, and realize that you can do a better job for less money yourself.

Nu
Click to expand...

Although I don't wish for the loss of jobs at XJ/9E, I'm afraid NuGuy has hit the nail squarely on the head on all points.
 
Angry/fearful little regional pilots lashing out at someone who dares say something that makes them upset.

How many of you that call nuguy and 'idiot' have actully studied the financial arrangements with your mainline partner?

Not many, I'll bet.

If anything, YOU are the ones chanting a mantra that you are a profitable entity.

There is a certain grim satisfaction in watching someone fall who is hard-headed and resistant to education.

A hard head makes for a sore a$$, boys.
 
Quote: by NuGuy

Regarding your second point...it is NWA MECs policy to protect scope, not the pension, as the number one priority. To that end, securing NWA jobs through the operation of 55 seat aircraft and up is on the table, even with reduced pay rates.

Hey Nuguy,
How do the senior pilots feel about pensions and their priority. They just might sell you out. Some senior whale captains I've run into don't even know the difference between a Saab and a CRJ or Avro. And even worse, they don't even care. So don't tell me pensions won't be their top priority!!!!!
 
While much of what NuGuy says has some validity, one statement that he makes as a point-of-fact, needs clarification.

The only reason that the 4 leased DC-9's are listed is because they are leased. You don't list assets that are paid off on that portion of the filing. The items (in this case aircraft) on the list are those that they choose not to "affirm".

This simply means that they intend to renegotiate the terms of those items or completely nullify any agreements with regards to those items. There is absolutely nothing in the filing that would indicate that they plan on keeping a single DC-9. Any aircraft that they own are on the chopping block, but do not have to be listed on the filing as there are no terms for a BK Judge or Creditors Committee to make determinations on.

Not knockin' most of what you said, but you misstated that as fact and I thought it should be pointed out.

All of us on this board are simply voicing our own opinions and conjecture and not one of us truly knows the outcome. However, one thing is certain; if all 3 of the redtail carriers don't stick together, we will all lose more in the end.
 
Beacon - ON

captpetefam said:
The simple truth is this: NWA guys see all the regional airport flying as beneath them but it is, nonetheless, REQUIRED for NWA revenue. We are dependent on EACH OTHER. One cannot exist independently from the other. Until that is realized by ALL Red-tail flyers, we will only continue to play into Mgmt's hands.
Click to expand...


This guy has it right. Substitute your airline for NWA if you wish but the picture is the same. All the animosity that flows between the mainline and regional pilot groups is senseless. It is a tragic waste of time and serves only to weaken this profession by dividing us even more.
 
NuGuy has some really good arguments/points.

Except... some markets just will not support a DC-9. USAirways did that to many secondary and more tertiary markets and see where it landed them.

NWA is not about to give up some markets. Now add the limitations of the NWA pilots, are they going to sign on for monthly lines at 85-95 hours (mid atlantic guys were flying that) to pick up the extra red tail flying? 13 1/2 duty days, and 20 minute turns?

Are NWA rampers going to work in these tertiary markets for $7 bucks an hour?

Unfortunately the express red tails are going to stay, especially for certain markets. Maybe some city frequencies will be eliminated for the express but many will stay. It is still cheaper to run a full Avro or CRJ than a 1/2 empty DC-9 or baby bus at the same ticket prices.

The best option NWA pilots have is to capture the "new" flying with small jet's. That new flying though I feel would be replacement flying for what the DC-9 loses. No "real" growth, just a transition from mainline to B or C scale but still above regional scale.
 
NWA does have plans for regionals. Stations like DSM already have been told by there union reps that 20 NWA stations are going to be airlink stations. So argue all you want if xj/9e is going to be around my bet is they will. I am sure the 500 million that xj made for NWA was just smoke and mirrors.
 
I thought if "jet service" was to a NWA station then it had to stay a NWA station.

JAN and HPN are perfect examples, they have nothing but Airlinks for most of the year and a occassional -9 here and there for a month or two once a day.
 
JT8D said:
Although I don't wish for the loss of jobs at XJ/9E, I'm afraid NuGuy has hit the nail squarely on the head on all points.
Click to expand...

So, NWA will only fly to cities that will support a Airbus 3-4 times daily so they can be like AirTran and do all their flying themselves? Is that the point that he squarely hit? Say hello to massive furloughs at NWA if that is the case.
 
dondk said:
I thought if "jet service" was to a NWA station then it had to stay a NWA station.
Click to expand...

That was probably true back in the good old days before bankruptcy. I'm sure now that out the window just like the pilot's scope clause.
 
sf3boy said:
So, NWA will only fly to cities that will support a Airbus 3-4 times daily so they can be like AirTran and do all their flying themselves? Is that the point that he squarely hit? Say hello to massive furloughs at NWA if that is the case.
Click to expand...

Did you read NuGuys post?

NW ALPA knows that scope is probably history so there is talk of securing ALL of the flying (50 seats and up) to mainline at regional type pay for mainline pilots that are on 100 seat AC or less. It is either that or the mainline pilots who would fly the RJ aircraft will be furloughed. Not a tuff decision to make, no?
 

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