Screws are put to Mesaba AGAIN

[NuGuy]

NuGuy,
All valid points. Question for you is, who is going to fly the routes and planes to the cities that we at XJ currently serve? Is NW going to pull out or cut in half service to DAY, TVC, MLU, BGM, AZO, GRB, etc....? I kind of doubt it.

We know where mainline pilots fall when it comes to flying little airplanes.....they are too good for that. So, unless their is a new push at NW ALPA to get the Saabs and CRJ's on their property, NW will be taking DC-9s on all the current feeder routes. Yes, that seems to be a very sound business model.

Heyas Dodge,

Valid points, but remember, NWA management has stated that, while no cities are going to lose service entirely, frequencies will be curtailed. Eliminate 2-3 RJ frequencies, and you have enough passengers for a DC-9 flight, which even with the higher cost of fuel, has a CASM half of what an RJ flight costs. You will note that in the bankruptcy filings, the only DC-9s that are to be parked are those that are leased, and that amounts to only 4 (out of a fleet count of 140+).

Regarding your second point...it is NWA MECs policy to protect scope, not the pension, as the number one priority. To that end, securing NWA jobs through the operation of 55 seat aircraft and up is on the table, even with reduced pay rates.

Is this a sellout? Isn't this lowering the bar? Maybe. But witness what happens when you lose control (or never had) control of your flying. Ask our brothers at Comair and TSA what happens.

In essence, NWA ALPA is left with two choices. Do the flying at reduced rates or watch someone else do the flying at reduced rates. It's better to capture the flying, and live to fight another day.

While the argument often comes up: "why would NWA do this flying when it can be done cheaper at XJ and 9E. Even if the pilots offer to do it cheaper, you still have mechanics, FA's, rampers and so on". Well, that argument is no longer valid, as the costs for those labor groups are going to be reduced by hook or by crook. Soon you get to the same point that AirTran came to, and realize that you can do a better job for less money yourself.

Nu

 

[NuGuy]

Nuguy:

Better to be thought of as an idiot and remain silent then to open your trap and remove all doubt.

The simple truth is this: NWA guys see all the regional airport flying as beneath them but it is, nonetheless, REQUIRED for NWA revenue. We are dependent on EACH OTHER. One cannot exist independently from the other. Until that is realized by ALL Red-tail flyers, we will only continue to play into Mgmt's hands.

Hrmmm, the only people who think that seem to be XJ or 9E guys. Since I value the opinion of my own pilot group over your august selves, what you think of me matters not.

As for NWA guys thinking that "regional" flying is beneath them, you could not be more incorrect. The plan is to capture as much red tail flying as possible.

Nu

 

[JT8D]

Heyas Dodge,

Valid points, but remember, NWA management has stated that, while no cities are going to lose service entirely, frequencies will be curtailed. Eliminate 2-3 RJ frequencies, and you have enough passengers for a DC-9 flight, which even with the higher cost of fuel, has a CASM half of what an RJ flight costs. You will note that in the bankruptcy filings, the only DC-9s that are to be parked are those that are leased, and that amounts to only 4 (out of a fleet count of 140+).

Regarding your second point...it is NWA MECs policy to protect scope, not the pension, as the number one priority. To that end, securing NWA jobs through the operation of 55 seat aircraft and up is on the table, even with reduced pay rates.

Is this a sellout? Isn't this lowering the bar? Maybe. But witness what happens when you lose control (or never had) control of your flying. Ask our brothers at Comair and TSA what happens.

In essence, NWA ALPA is left with two choices. Do the flying at reduced rates or watch someone else do the flying at reduced rates. It's better to capture the flying, and live to fight another day.

While the argument often comes up: "why would NWA do this flying when it can be done cheaper at XJ and 9E. Even if the pilots offer to do it cheaper, you still have mechanics, FA's, rampers and so on". Well, that argument is no longer valid, as the costs for those labor groups are going to be reduced by hook or by crook. Soon you get to the same point that AirTran came to, and realize that you can do a better job for less money yourself.

Nu

Although I don't wish for the loss of jobs at XJ/9E, I'm afraid NuGuy has hit the nail squarely on the head on all points.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Angry/fearful little regional pilots lashing out at someone who dares say something that makes them upset.

How many of you that call nuguy and 'idiot' have actully studied the financial arrangements with your mainline partner?

Not many, I'll bet.

If anything, YOU are the ones chanting a mantra that you are a profitable entity.

There is a certain grim satisfaction in watching someone fall who is hard-headed and resistant to education.

A hard head makes for a sore a$$, boys.

 

[westbound]

Quote: by NuGuy

Regarding your second point...it is NWA MECs policy to protect scope, not the pension, as the number one priority. To that end, securing NWA jobs through the operation of 55 seat aircraft and up is on the table, even with reduced pay rates.

Hey Nuguy,
How do the senior pilots feel about pensions and their priority. They just might sell you out. Some senior whale captains I've run into don't even know the difference between a Saab and a CRJ or Avro. And even worse, they don't even care. So don't tell me pensions won't be their top priority!!!!!

 

[LivinDaDream]

While much of what NuGuy says has some validity, one statement that he makes as a point-of-fact, needs clarification.

The only reason that the 4 leased DC-9's are listed is because they are leased. You don't list assets that are paid off on that portion of the filing. The items (in this case aircraft) on the list are those that they choose not to "affirm".

This simply means that they intend to renegotiate the terms of those items or completely nullify any agreements with regards to those items. There is absolutely nothing in the filing that would indicate that they plan on keeping a single DC-9. Any aircraft that they own are on the chopping block, but do not have to be listed on the filing as there are no terms for a BK Judge or Creditors Committee to make determinations on.

Not knockin' most of what you said, but you misstated that as fact and I thought it should be pointed out.

All of us on this board are simply voicing our own opinions and conjecture and not one of us truly knows the outcome. However, one thing is certain; if all 3 of the redtail carriers don't stick together, we will all lose more in the end.

 

[flyby]

Beacon - ON

The simple truth is this: NWA guys see all the regional airport flying as beneath them but it is, nonetheless, REQUIRED for NWA revenue. We are dependent on EACH OTHER. One cannot exist independently from the other. Until that is realized by ALL Red-tail flyers, we will only continue to play into Mgmt's hands.

This guy has it right. Substitute your airline for NWA if you wish but the picture is the same. All the animosity that flows between the mainline and regional pilot groups is senseless. It is a tragic waste of time and serves only to weaken this profession by dividing us even more.

 

[dondk]

NuGuy has some really good arguments/points.

Except... some markets just will not support a DC-9. USAirways did that to many secondary and more tertiary markets and see where it landed them.

NWA is not about to give up some markets. Now add the limitations of the NWA pilots, are they going to sign on for monthly lines at 85-95 hours (mid atlantic guys were flying that) to pick up the extra red tail flying? 13 1/2 duty days, and 20 minute turns?

Are NWA rampers going to work in these tertiary markets for $7 bucks an hour?

Unfortunately the express red tails are going to stay, especially for certain markets. Maybe some city frequencies will be eliminated for the express but many will stay. It is still cheaper to run a full Avro or CRJ than a 1/2 empty DC-9 or baby bus at the same ticket prices.

The best option NWA pilots have is to capture the "new" flying with small jet's. That new flying though I feel would be replacement flying for what the DC-9 loses. No "real" growth, just a transition from mainline to B or C scale but still above regional scale.

 

[Waylon]

NWA does have plans for regionals. Stations like DSM already have been told by there union reps that 20 NWA stations are going to be airlink stations. So argue all you want if xj/9e is going to be around my bet is they will. I am sure the 500 million that xj made for NWA was just smoke and mirrors.

 

[dondk]

I thought if "jet service" was to a NWA station then it had to stay a NWA station.

JAN and HPN are perfect examples, they have nothing but Airlinks for most of the year and a occassional -9 here and there for a month or two once a day.

 

[sf3boy]

Although I don't wish for the loss of jobs at XJ/9E, I'm afraid NuGuy has hit the nail squarely on the head on all points.

So, NWA will only fly to cities that will support a Airbus 3-4 times daily so they can be like AirTran and do all their flying themselves? Is that the point that he squarely hit? Say hello to massive furloughs at NWA if that is the case.

 

[scabseeker]

I thought if "jet service" was to a NWA station then it had to stay a NWA station.

That was probably true back in the good old days before bankruptcy. I'm sure now that out the window just like the pilot's scope clause.

 

[JT8D]

So, NWA will only fly to cities that will support a Airbus 3-4 times daily so they can be like AirTran and do all their flying themselves? Is that the point that he squarely hit? Say hello to massive furloughs at NWA if that is the case.

Did you read NuGuys post?

NW ALPA knows that scope is probably history so there is talk of securing ALL of the flying (50 seats and up) to mainline at regional type pay for mainline pilots that are on 100 seat AC or less. It is either that or the mainline pilots who would fly the RJ aircraft will be furloughed. Not a tuff decision to make, no?

 

[BoDEAN]

What an Idiot.

Is that why over the last year, Mesaba was one of few regionals turning a profit? Hmm. Wall Street Journal reader you are not =P

 

[profit]

What an Idiot.

I couldn't agree more. NU GUY is an IDIOT. Drink some more coolaid dude.