Screws are put to Mesaba AGAIN

[Mesabi Miner]

Hey all,

Let's make our melodrama into a "mellow drama." Let's face it. It's unlikely any of us will starve no matter what happens. Will we be living the QOL that we want? Absolutely not. But, let's all just chill out.

MM

 

[sf3boy]

Did you read NuGuys post?

Did you? His last sentence said something that NW will come to the same conclusion that Airtran did and do all the flying themselves. That's fine. My point is that they are going to need some real good luck flying Airbuses and DC-9's to CWA, ELM, LFT, AEX, BRD, etc. Maybe they will just have to trim out some city pairs to be like AirTran. This is where there furloughs come, even if XJ and 9E dissappear for good.

 

[JT8D]

Did you? His last sentence said something that NW will come to the same conclusion that Airtran did and do all the flying themselves. That's fine. My point is that they are going to need some real good luck flying Airbuses and DC-9's to CWA, ELM, LFT, AEX, BRD, etc. Maybe they will just have to trim out some city pairs to be like AirTran. This is where there furloughs come, even if XJ and 9E dissappear for good.

I think he meant Airtran as in mainline will do ALL of the flying including the RJ's.

I realize that is tuff for you to comprehend but believe it or not that is an option being discussed at this very moment at mainline.

Let me spell it out for you. A proposal to take your airplanes and fly them at mainline by mainline pilots. Is that clear enough?

 

[dondk]

Let me spell it out for you. A proposal to take your airplanes and fly them at mainline by mainline pilots. Is that clear enough?

Crystal clear... Did not think NWA pilots would sell out for $60 bucks a hour. The days of regionals will gone and the days of majors will be gone to. If a mainline guy is willing to fly a 50 seat for $60/hour. That is lowering the bar...

 

[JT8D]

Crystal clear... Did not think NWA pilots would sell out for $60 bucks a hour. The days of regionals will gone and the days of majors will be gone to. If a mainline guy is willing to fly a 50 seat for $60/hour. That is lowering the bar...

I hear ya, the "rationale" is that the mainline guys who would fly the RJ's at regional pay would be furloughed anyway without this plan so some pay is better than no pay. And as NuGuy stated with this plan mainline protects jobs and lives to "fight another day" to raise pay when the airline becomes profitable.

 

[sf3boy]

Perfectly clear. And, I know this may come as a shock to you, I understand why. I even support it. It's too bad that ALPA let this happen years ago.


That being said, I'll believe it when I see it. The 747 and 10 guys don't care one bit about some 320 or 9 FO. I would be pleasantly surprised to see ALPA take a stance for the betterment of the group as opposed to the betterment of one's self. They have never taken that road before so these are fascinating times we are living in. But good luck to all the NW pilots on taking back all our/your airplanes from Mesaba. The Saabs are great in the summer in MEM. Enjoy that $52/hour captain rate.

 

[PoorJetDriver]

As an observer of the US Airways bankruptcies during my career at PSA I can tell any and all assumptions about who flies where and is serviced by whomever needs to be thrown out the window. For example, nearly all US Airways stations have had ground operations outsourced and that is only the beginning. The paycuts the CSA's have taken are enormous. Many things are changing at NWA and I wish you all the best.

 

[FOrever85]

I guess NUguy hasn't been paying attention to what has been going on at his own airline.

One word for you,


Outsourcing!

I you haven't been paying attention it's managements favorite word. Just like your mechanics and soon to be flight attendants, they will be doing their best to outsource your job too.

Oh, but I am sure pilots are different and they will let you guys take more flying.

Keep dreaming!

It would be better for you to go back and look at your last concessionary agreement to see what is in store for you and the regionals. More paycuts, more furloughs, more regionals. After all that's what you guys signed.

Unfortunatly you are trying to use logic. It doesn't apply to airline management.

 

[westbound]

JT8D and NUGUY

You both actually think mainline would want to protect your jobs by securing all 50+ seat flying. Why would they care about your job. Mainline didn't care about protecting the mechanics jobs nor will they care about your FA's jobs. So, tell me why they would care about your flying job. Face it, your company DOES NOT care about their own employees and that is the sad truth. They will do anything to outsource your jobs even at the pilot level.

 

[JT8D]

JT8D and NUGUY

You both actually think mainline would want to protect your jobs by securing all 50+ seat flying. Why would they care about your job. Mainline didn't care about protecting the mechanics jobs nor will they care about your FA's jobs. So, tell me why they would care about your flying job. Face it, your company DOES NOT care about their own employees and that is the sad truth. They will do anything to outsource your jobs even at the pilot level.

I wasn't referring to "the company" (management) securing the pilot jobs. I was referring to NW ALPA considering "biting the bullet" (with regard to pay and work rules) and securing 50 seat and up flying by making mainline flying these aircraft the most cost effective choice for "the company" (management). Hence the preservation of mainline flying jobs albeit at far lower pay rates, but "living to fight another day" (to get work rules and pay back) when the airline becomes profitable.

Although I cannot speak for NuGuy, I am certain he was referring to NW ALPA as well, not management.

Definite comprehension issues on this thread.

 

[NuGuy]

Definite comprehension issues on this thread.

Man, no kidding.

We just got the word from the negotiating commitee that scope is the #1 issue. NWA has it's demands, but the NWA MEC is sticking to its guns to retain flying above 60 seats. Anything less than capturing that flying, on one certificate, with one pilot group, will result in a "major confrontation" with the pilots.

Put simply, in deference to many here, this is a strike issue.

Nu

 

[Jimdandy]

Nuguy Jt8,

Your falling into mgmts trap nicely. You will bid for the flying at some terrible low rate. Then mgmt will take that low rate to a outsourcer and ask can you beat this. And of course they can you are only succeeding at screwing the profession more. No way will NWA put you in 50 seaters. No way. I wish they would set a precedence by giving you all regional flying - but giving you all the levarage in the next pilot negotiations would be crazy. The only way to control a union is massive amonts of out sourcing. All Bankruptcys have involved MASSIVE AMOUNTS of outsourcing.

If we do not learn from the mistakes made in the past we will be condemned to repeat them. Wise up Nuguy and Jt8 you are digging your own graves.

 

[sf3boy]

NuGuy

That is great news. I really hope that your union leaders do stick to this plan. I have always believed that big airplanes at commuters is bad for all. However, a strike is what they want (mgt). They got it with the mechanics by the laying off over half proposal and the FA's and rampers are next. Unfotrunately, they will go after the pilots too.

 

[NuGuy]

However, a strike is what they want (mgt). They got it with the mechanics by the laying off over half proposal and the FA's and rampers are next. Unfotrunately, they will go after the pilots too.

Thats fine. Sentiment from the pilot group is "bring your best game".

Are they going to run an airline with 500 hour Uber wonders from Gulfstream? Nope, a pilot's strike is liquidation.

Giving in to what management wants is to shrink to a 2500-3000 pilot group, which is ripe for picking off at the next stop down the road. Today's stop is the DC-9. Tomorrow's is the 319/320. The MEC sees this.

Funny that the America West/USAir merger had a fair bit of insourcing. I mean, I don't see any 100 seaters at either right now, but they seemed to get that flying.

Jimmy boy, we don't want your 50 seaters. Those you are your jobs, for better or worse. It's time for the next battle, and to draw the line. Besides, don't you read Boyd? It's day is done.

Nu

 

[schmitty340]

Nuguy says "Funny that the America West/USAir merger had a fair bit of insourcing. I mean, I don't see any 100 seaters at either right now, but they seemed to get that flying."


maybe he didn't get the memo....lets see, mesa flys 90 seaters for america west and us air added lots of 70 seaters to its feeders....

good luck fellas!

schmitty

 

[Jimdandy]

NUguy - hello mcfly-

USair had to kick its pilots off of the E-jets and chataqua took over. The only reason MGMT is still paying into the pension plan is to not pi$$ off senior pilots.

All they have to say is let us change this here scope thing to read 90 or 70 seats and we will still pay a fair portion of your pension - if you don't let us we will have to drop the pension. Who do you think Mark Mclain runs the union with - is it junior guy or 747 cpt senior old man. Of course they will give you a cock and bull story about how they tried to get flying back but in the ended it just didn't work out.

If you commute get ready to ask the skywest or mesa pilot for the jumpseat on his 70 seater. This stinks but if NWA's MEC doesn't change its strategy this will happen!!!!

 

[AAflyer]

Crystal clear... Did not think NWA pilots would sell out for $60 bucks a hour. The days of regionals will gone and the days of majors will be gone to. If a mainline guy is willing to fly a 50 seat for $60/hour. That is lowering the bar...

You did..

AA

 

[sf3boy]

Jimmy boy, we don't want your 50 seaters. Those you are your jobs, for better or worse. It's time for the next battle, and to draw the line. Besides, don't you read Boyd? It's day is done.

Nu

I don't fly a 50 seat airplane. I have had to DH on some. Mine has 34, 33, or 30 seats. I really wish you all the best, but the dinosaurs want to keep their pensions that don't fit into today's economy in any industry and that means goodbye junior pilots.

 

[sf3boy]

You did..

AA

And I believe all those that did are considered rats of the industry. Better not call names if one doesn't want to labeled the same.

 

[Mesabi Miner]

News Flash

XJ MEC to hold a meeting with themselves Friday morning and to meet with XJ management Friday afternoon. The MEC says the company has not given them any hint about the content of the talks, but the MEC has been asked to sign a confidentiality agreement. Bad news always happens on Fridays... MM

 

[AvroJockey]

Eliminate 2-3 RJ frequencies, and you have enough passengers for a DC-9 flight, which even with the higher cost of fuel, has a CASM half of what an RJ flight costs.

Agreed that CASM is far less, however, in most markets of a network system schedule frequency plays a very important roll in revenue. For example, if one were to replace 2 full CRJs with 1 DC9 between two cities, they would be lucky to fill half the seats in the DC9. This is Microeconomics 101; if a store is open from 0800 to 2000 its revenue could be twice that of a store that is open 0800 to 1700.

Regarding your second point...it is NWA MECs policy to protect scope, not the pension, as the number one priority. To that end, securing NWA jobs through the operation of 55 seat aircraft and up is on the table, even with reduced pay rates.

Thank God!
Even though XJ is a great regional to fly for, I still look forward to flying at mainline, regardless of aircraft type (and probably lack of a DB plan).

 

[Redmeat]

This is Microeconomics 101; if a store is open from 0800 to 2000 its revenue could be twice that of a store that is open 0800 to 1700.

OK Steve Forbes.

The reason for the 100% increase from 17:00 to 20:00 is that people get off work at 17:00. Last I checked most people don't do their "nine to fiver" job then go to the airport to go on a trip. People will adjust their travel schedule to conform to available flight schedules.

 

[Jimdandy]

keep dreaming redmeat if there isn't flight avaliable they will pay to go on someone else. If you logic made any sense we would only have 747 out there flying. 1 747 per a week into oh say thief river falls.

Your a moron as always redmeat

 

[Redmeat]

keep dreaming redmeat if there isn't flight avaliable they will pay to go on someone else. If you logic made any sense we would only have 747 out there flying. 1 747 per a week into oh say thief river falls.

Your a moron as always redmeat

Yeah I'm the moron. Jim, ALL of the 74's are FULL. If a person lives in LNK or LSE (places you fly) how is one to "go on someone else" to catch a ride to DTW thru to Narita or Osaka?

You are probably on a long layover (hopefully) and judging from your spelling and your grammar, you are in need of a nap.

Goodnight.

 

[Jimdandy]

Redmeat your hillarious you still didn't get my point. Anyway your right i'm tired as he11.

Suffice it to say this sucks and i hope you don't lose your job just like I hope I don't lose my job.

Take care and sleep well.

 

[U of I Tweak]

OK Steve Forbes.

The reason for the 100% increase from 17:00 to 20:00 is that people get off work at 17:00. Last I checked most people don't do their "nine to fiver" job then go to the airport to go on a trip. People will adjust their travel schedule to conform to available flight schedules.

Except when they can move one ticket counter down and leave on any of 10 flights on Eagle to ORD and make a connection.

Another point is that each one of our departures coinsides with a bank of flights out of DTW. If you limit all of your feeder routes to once a day, then you have feeds to only one bank. And because everyone arrives at the same general time...all of your mainline connection flights are oversold. To compound the problem, the international flights leave at different times depending on destination. All of the Asian flights leave in the 2-5 range. The European destinations leave in the later evenings. If you limit all of the spokes to one DC-9, then you limit the passengers choices when it comes to layover times. Do you only have a morning departure for the people who need to be someplace by midday? What about all the international passengers? Now they have to wait hours for a connection. Okay, so only an afternoon flight...no asian connections (and trust me we have a lot of them here in CMI). As to the people who needed to be somewhere early, they've chosen another airline. How about a flight in the evening only? Great for those traveling to Europe. Except when weather is bad, the plane is groundstopped and no one will make their connections. Now they either have to fund their own night in DTW (hotels are not provided for a wx cancellation) or they have to wait a full 24 hours to go; they have no chance at catching the next morning's flight to DTW and perhaps catching an earlier connection. Also, when a flight cancels, it's 24 hours before another arrives. With multiple flights, you can spread the rebookings across several planes, if you only have one flight....well just hope it's not full.

You can't simply replace 3 Saabs or 3 CRJs or something a day with one DC-9 or Airbus and expect the same number or passengers. It's as simple as "people will adjust their schedules." Mainline needs the feed that the regionals provide. A Saab has a higher CASM than does a DC-9, but that's not the only number that matters. If that was all that mattered, then RJs and their high CASMs would have never existed. Obviously it's cheaper for management to contract out CRJs or Saabs or they would do it in a -9.

For the record, I don't want to see larger planes flying at XJ or 9E or really any regional. I too would someday like to be employed at a major. However, to (as someone did in an above post) pass off XJ and 9E as nothing more than a 65 million dollar a quarter expense is stupid. How much do you think it would cost for mainline to provide the same service? We provide a service that helps fill your planes. The bottom line is that unless mainline flies Saabs and CRJs (an idea that I think is fine....farfetched...but fine with me) regionals will be required. I think the problem with many regionals is that RJs are being used on routes that can and should be supported by mainline aircraft. To end my rant/thought, I hope the NWA pilots hold firm on their scope and get the 70/90/100 seat airplanes, and regionals are used in their traditional role to feed mainline. I also hope everyone realizes that it's NWA, XJ and 9E that are getting pissed on by NWA management. We're all losers. NWA pilots are probably losing their pensions and will be strong armed into crappy pay on new and possibly current airplanes. Regional pilots are facing the same thing. S**t rolls downhill.

 

[CptMurf]

You did..

AA

Actually, we just inherited this rate from him when he/she left the regionals. Unless the mainlines are going to start hirining 300hr PFTers, they must start at the regionals (or military but thats a different story). That means accepted current contract rates as a newhire and work on raising the bar. Just look at the nice lllllooooooooonnnnnggggg contract you left Eagle with.

 

[CptMurf]

As for mainline giving up scope......they already did in that 2 year bridge agreement you signed. And they will give it up again (once forced into that corner). Oh yeah, that agreement also gave management the ability to bring in a 3rd Airlink, which exclustivity was one of our most powerfull weapons in negotiating contracts. Thanks for that one, you must really want a "Mesa" type contract carrier fighting for not only our jobs, but yours too.

 

[profit]

I have to assume that many people making posts are up too late, have had too much to drink, or are JUST PLAIN STUPID.

Question for Red MEAT, Nu GUY and JT8D...if the regionals are so unnecessary, why in the world would ALL of the airlines have them? Just to waste money?

 

[NuGuy]

I have to assume that many people making posts are up too late, have had too much to drink, or are JUST PLAIN STUPID.

Question for Red MEAT, Nu GUY and JT8D...if the regionals are so unnecessary, why in the world would ALL of the airlines have them? Just to waste money?

Hrmmm, "all" might be too strong a word here...

SWA - No regionals

JetBlue - No Regionals (actually, they found it better to "insource" the flying)

AirTran - Tried it, sh!tcanned them

Regional airlines only make sense when you can profit from the feed. Back in the day when you nicked Joe Business for $800 each way to fly from East Butthole, MN to his conference get-a-way in New Orleans, then it made it worthwhile. Now a days, the same guy is paying $169 round trip, and that doesn't even pay for the APU burn on your RJ rent-a-jet. This cat is going to be riding the "Mankato Meteor" van service here in a year or so to make his AirTran flight out of MSP. It's the "wave of the future".

Everyone here likes to point out here what wonderous futures the likes of JB, AT and SWA have. Well, fine and good, and heck, I might even grant them that. But, when you have a lot more of them, that equals a whole lot less regional flying.

Good news is that all the van services are hiring, BUT, you have to have a type on the Econoline, and you have to PFT.

Nu