Screws are put to Mesaba AGAIN

Jimdandy

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Looks like NWA missed a 2nd payment. I think the harder they put the screws to us at this point the more they are looking for concessions so they can grow us with new E-jets at super cheap rates. If this ain't the case XJ needs to shut down now so NWA can feel how much they will miss us. That means no ground handling in msp, dtw, cvg, mem either, for pinnacle or us. that would cost them about 2 billion a year.

How come USair United wasn't this harsh in bankruptcy. HMMMMM. Well because their regional CEOs wouldn't stand for it. XJ and pinnacle are now part of the creditors sitting at the table with the judge deciding NWAs fate. Why aren't they doing anything or than talking? They do have some power.
 

WSurf

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US Airways was that harsh!!! It just seems worse when its right in your back yard. PDT/ALG/PSA took pay concessions!! PDT/ALG even had to furlough pilots!!
When US Airways went into Chpt.11 all the WO's were included in that!! You will now become pawns in a chess game! I see management playing all the NWA Express against each other (We had it here at US Airways Express) and dangling the growth and new jet carrots in your face. And of course like all pilot groups the back stabbing with begin.
All I can say, is try and ride this storm out. Hopefully you have much stronger union leadership then the 3 WO's over here have. And try to keep as much communication lines open as possible amoungst each other. Try and check you ego's at the door when you come to work. If you guys all work together, it could be a better out-come then we had. GOOD LUCK!!!!!
 

nwaredtail

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And don't forget the BK Judge was a lawyer that represented Gary Wilson's investment company about 20 years ago. That doesn't seem to be a problem these days though, with all the checks and balances in the current administartion.
 

NuGuy

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Jimdandy said:
If this ain't the case XJ needs to shut down now so NWA can feel how much they will miss us.

Yup, I'm sure the accountants would miss that $65 million per quarter red ink for Airlink operations. Oh yea, lets not forget the subsidized landing fees, aircraft leases, station handling, marketing and my personal favorite, the cheapo jet fuel.

Truth be told, in the entire history of regional operators, there never was any money in "regional" operations. Only sleigh of hand on a balance sheet. Only a couple of "niche" operators ever made any cash, and they never saw an RJ.

For historical perspective, not even the local service carriers back in the day of regulation could make any money. They had to be propped up by subsidies.

But look at the operators that are making consistent money...SWA, AirTran, JetBlue (well, maybe not this quarter)...not an RJ in sight.


Nu
 

Mongolikecandy

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Jimdandy said:
How come USair United wasn't this harsh in bankruptcy..

Are you familiar with Air Wisconsin?
 

WSurf

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NuGuy said:
Yup, I'm sure the accountants would miss that $65 million per But look at the operators that are making consistent money...SWA, AirTran, JetBlue (well, maybe not this quarter)...not an RJ in sight.


Nu

Remember these airlines do not operate in any small towns! Because they know they couldn't fill a 320 or 737 and won't go into any markets they might lose money at!! Thats were you can fill up a 50 seat RJ or Turbo Prop!! How would you like to drive 3 hrs to the nearest airport to jump on SWA! Not me, I would rather drive 15 minutes to my local regional airport and fly out there.
SWA, AirTran, Jetblue better watch there backs now!! US Airways and soon NWA, Delta with its fleet, routes and cost structure will be in much better shape to put a beating on these guys. I believe that SWA fuel Hedging ends soon, so they will pay more in gas.. Talks at Airways about adding Q400's, which I believe Horizon is using to battle SWA out west.
Regionals make money!! Management can twist the numbers all they want. During our BK at PDT we were told by Dave Siegal that we made no money and even lost cash. Then we hear from our new CEO Doug Parker that PDT is a highly profitable operation.... Whatever!!!!
 

Jimdandy

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Yea air wisconsin was picked up by usair your point? They were asked if they would fly for a certain amount of money and they said no way and left for usair.

Nuguy if our mgmt had the guts they could shut down ops and that would ground not only us but also Pinaccle in MSP, DTW. NWA would be losing money like crazy and would go under in about a month or two. The only problem is our mgmt is being told to just let NWA do anything they want becuase if worse comes to worse we will protect you with a nice golden parachute.
 

Terry Hunter

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Jimdandy said:
... The only problem is our mgmt is being told to just let NWA do anything they want becuase if worse comes to worse we will protect you with a nice golden parachute.

???

TH
 

NuGuy

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Jimdandy said:
Nuguy if our mgmt had the guts they could shut down ops and that would ground not only us but also Pinaccle in MSP, DTW. NWA would be losing money like crazy and would go under in about a month or two.

Uh, yea...you just keep chanting that to yourself. If it weren't for NWA, you'd be another FlyI, but without the big airplanes, and trying to fly people between Fort Dodge and St. Cloud. Try running those Avros independently.

XJ and 9E are contractors. Remember that. Your company is going to get jacked just like all the other unsecured creditors, and sh!t rolls downhill. When XJ and 9E have to start paying retail on jet fuel, you don't think it's going to come out of management's pay check, do you?

I saw the same denial of reality when I was at PDT. "We're too important...we make too much money...we're a quality operation." Yup...ask the top %10 of the list at PDT (or ALG) where that got them.

Guess what boys, for the small jet providers, it's a game of musical chairs...for XJ/9E the music has stopped, and there no chairs left that aren't in the desert.

I will grant XJ one thing. At least with the Saabs, they might be able to go after some EAS money and hope to break even. 9E is screwed.

Nu
 

Yudso

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Nuguy must be in Dougie's pocket. Good luck with the NWA fear and intimidation campaign.
 

Dodge

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NuGuy,
All valid points. Question for you is, who is going to fly the routes and planes to the cities that we at XJ currently serve? Is NW going to pull out or cut in half service to DAY, TVC, MLU, BGM, AZO, GRB, etc....? I kind of doubt it.

We know where mainline pilots fall when it comes to flying little airplanes.....they are too good for that. So, unless their is a new push at NW ALPA to get the Saabs and CRJ's on their property, NW will be taking DC-9s on all the current feeder routes. Yes, that seems to be a very sound business model.
 

captpetefam

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Nuguy:

Better to be thought of as an idiot and remain silent then to open your trap and remove all doubt.

The simple truth is this: NWA guys see all the regional airport flying as beneath them but it is, nonetheless, REQUIRED for NWA revenue. We are dependent on EACH OTHER. One cannot exist independently from the other. Until that is realized by ALL Red-tail flyers, we will only continue to play into Mgmt's hands.
 

sf3boy

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Dodge,

You may have hit the winning number without even knowing it.

If NWA wants to get looking like SWA or JB, you know, profitable, then they may just have to curtail their flying some. Perhaps they should get rid of all their aircraft except for the A319/20's and the 747-400's and only service 1 or 2 cities in every third state and do just a little Pacific flying. NWA has proven that they can't do a good job with their current structure so maybe this is the answer. It couldn't produce any worse results.
 

NuGuy

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Dodge said:
NuGuy,
All valid points. Question for you is, who is going to fly the routes and planes to the cities that we at XJ currently serve? Is NW going to pull out or cut in half service to DAY, TVC, MLU, BGM, AZO, GRB, etc....? I kind of doubt it.

We know where mainline pilots fall when it comes to flying little airplanes.....they are too good for that. So, unless their is a new push at NW ALPA to get the Saabs and CRJ's on their property, NW will be taking DC-9s on all the current feeder routes. Yes, that seems to be a very sound business model.

Heyas Dodge,

Valid points, but remember, NWA management has stated that, while no cities are going to lose service entirely, frequencies will be curtailed. Eliminate 2-3 RJ frequencies, and you have enough passengers for a DC-9 flight, which even with the higher cost of fuel, has a CASM half of what an RJ flight costs. You will note that in the bankruptcy filings, the only DC-9s that are to be parked are those that are leased, and that amounts to only 4 (out of a fleet count of 140+).

Regarding your second point...it is NWA MECs policy to protect scope, not the pension, as the number one priority. To that end, securing NWA jobs through the operation of 55 seat aircraft and up is on the table, even with reduced pay rates.

Is this a sellout? Isn't this lowering the bar? Maybe. But witness what happens when you lose control (or never had) control of your flying. Ask our brothers at Comair and TSA what happens.

In essence, NWA ALPA is left with two choices. Do the flying at reduced rates or watch someone else do the flying at reduced rates. It's better to capture the flying, and live to fight another day.

While the argument often comes up: "why would NWA do this flying when it can be done cheaper at XJ and 9E. Even if the pilots offer to do it cheaper, you still have mechanics, FA's, rampers and so on". Well, that argument is no longer valid, as the costs for those labor groups are going to be reduced by hook or by crook. Soon you get to the same point that AirTran came to, and realize that you can do a better job for less money yourself.

Nu
 

NuGuy

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captpetefam said:
Nuguy:

Better to be thought of as an idiot and remain silent then to open your trap and remove all doubt.

The simple truth is this: NWA guys see all the regional airport flying as beneath them but it is, nonetheless, REQUIRED for NWA revenue. We are dependent on EACH OTHER. One cannot exist independently from the other. Until that is realized by ALL Red-tail flyers, we will only continue to play into Mgmt's hands.

Hrmmm, the only people who think that seem to be XJ or 9E guys. Since I value the opinion of my own pilot group over your august selves, what you think of me matters not.

As for NWA guys thinking that "regional" flying is beneath them, you could not be more incorrect. The plan is to capture as much red tail flying as possible.

Nu
 

JT8D

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NuGuy said:
Heyas Dodge,

Valid points, but remember, NWA management has stated that, while no cities are going to lose service entirely, frequencies will be curtailed. Eliminate 2-3 RJ frequencies, and you have enough passengers for a DC-9 flight, which even with the higher cost of fuel, has a CASM half of what an RJ flight costs. You will note that in the bankruptcy filings, the only DC-9s that are to be parked are those that are leased, and that amounts to only 4 (out of a fleet count of 140+).

Regarding your second point...it is NWA MECs policy to protect scope, not the pension, as the number one priority. To that end, securing NWA jobs through the operation of 55 seat aircraft and up is on the table, even with reduced pay rates.

Is this a sellout? Isn't this lowering the bar? Maybe. But witness what happens when you lose control (or never had) control of your flying. Ask our brothers at Comair and TSA what happens.

In essence, NWA ALPA is left with two choices. Do the flying at reduced rates or watch someone else do the flying at reduced rates. It's better to capture the flying, and live to fight another day.

While the argument often comes up: "why would NWA do this flying when it can be done cheaper at XJ and 9E. Even if the pilots offer to do it cheaper, you still have mechanics, FA's, rampers and so on". Well, that argument is no longer valid, as the costs for those labor groups are going to be reduced by hook or by crook. Soon you get to the same point that AirTran came to, and realize that you can do a better job for less money yourself.

Nu

Although I don't wish for the loss of jobs at XJ/9E, I'm afraid NuGuy has hit the nail squarely on the head on all points.
 

100LL... Again!

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Angry/fearful little regional pilots lashing out at someone who dares say something that makes them upset.

How many of you that call nuguy and 'idiot' have actully studied the financial arrangements with your mainline partner?

Not many, I'll bet.

If anything, YOU are the ones chanting a mantra that you are a profitable entity.

There is a certain grim satisfaction in watching someone fall who is hard-headed and resistant to education.

A hard head makes for a sore a$$, boys.
 

westbound

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Quote: by NuGuy

Regarding your second point...it is NWA MECs policy to protect scope, not the pension, as the number one priority. To that end, securing NWA jobs through the operation of 55 seat aircraft and up is on the table, even with reduced pay rates.

Hey Nuguy,
How do the senior pilots feel about pensions and their priority. They just might sell you out. Some senior whale captains I've run into don't even know the difference between a Saab and a CRJ or Avro. And even worse, they don't even care. So don't tell me pensions won't be their top priority!!!!!
 
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