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Scary Numbers

  • Thread starter Thread starter Skyline
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The guy expecting to fly a 777 for $250 a year was setting him/herself up for a fall. There are lots of aviation jobs out there that you can make a living at and be happy if you enjoy what you're doing. And there are lots more applicants out there for those jobs, true. I for one view myself succeeding because I have more perserverance than most and I enjoy what I do in the meantime. And my definition of success is broad rather than narrow, so that helps! FN nailed it; so many pilots who are cynical and bitter and complain all the time have no perspective. I've had the bad manual labor jobs to get where I am and it was valuable experience in teaching me humility.

I'm one lucky SOB and I try and remember that every day.
 
I think Skyline needs to quit flying for good. He'll never be happy.

HMR, so are you guys hiring? I had to ask, and I really want to know!
 
Easy boys

I think y'all are being a little too harsh on Mr. Skyline.

Forgive the blunt language but I think right now he's moving through the coping stages of grief.

You ask yourself, What did he lose? The answer is, somebody or something just punched a big old hole in his dream and right now he's waking up to the harsh reality that almost no one will ever make a $250K/yr flying an airplane.

Sure there will be exceptions...just enough to really frustrate those of us who don't fly for the simple pleasure.

But give him time and his anger will subside into resignation. He'll either take the job for what it has become or he'll learn to do something else.

The job is easy. The lifestyle is a killer.
 
Okie doke, this is bugging me, do the numbers really SCARE anybody?


1.
Do they have big fangs?

2.
Do they suck blood?

3.
Do they have superhuman'oid powers?


If you answered yes to one or more of the three questions, please tear up your medical, and see a doctor.
 
Avbug

That comment about committing career suicide is a bit over the top but it is how I feel. I have seen ex-coworkers who at 60 realized that they wasted their lives in the cockpit. The had no friends no family and no money and now they were being forced out to the abyss.

I have a four year degree in aviation and spent over 18 years in the pursuit of a dream. In my career I was a CFI for a long time, flew the Alaskan Bush, was a corporate and charter lear and citation pilot, flew multiple contract planes for the Forest service and finally flew for one regional and one jet national airline. I hated most of it. My dream is and always was to fly for a major airline. Not because I am a greedy no good, but because I wished a better life for my self. I wanted a family and respect. I wished for a good home in a neighborhood I was happy to live in. I wanted to open my retirement statement at the end of every month and feel good about what I saw. My dream was to have 18 to 20 days off a month to enjoy some extra quality time with my friends and family. I imagined taking three month long vacations, taking the family to perhaps Europe and commuting from there. And finally, I wanted to see a picture of myself grey haired in a Captains uniform taken at the time of my retirement. There is nothing wrong with those dreams. I am sure that most of us start out with that picture in mind. Back when I started it didn't seem so silly. I knew a few guys from my high school who did just that at an early age.

Therefore I am not addressing those of you who desire to be the garbage men of the sky. If your aim is to simply pilot a Lear around the country and be someones whipping boy forever then have at it. If you are proud to pilot a crappy old caravan I will send flowers when you finally pile it up on approach one day. My point is that I am not talking to you. My audience is those who share the same vision as I.

I sacrificed much in my life to reach this point in my career. As you may have guessed I missed the mark by just a few inches. I have every right to be disappointed. My attitudes were earned by sacrifice and loss, and I am not alone in my opinions either. I didn't change but the industry did faster than I could keep up with it. Mostly though I am sad for all my friends and their families. All those under employed or dead companions of mine who stood by my side as we fought our way up the ladder to find nothing at the end.

I know; life isn't fair, luck has a lot to do with it, things change, try harder. It still bites and the path to destruction is still there. Flying magazine is there to sell pilot licences. Kitt Darby tells lies. You can't call it a hiring boom if it comes after 10 years of furloughs and cuts. The reality today is that 1 in 20 new commercial pilots will ever see a job at a major airline. I wish someone had told me different when I was 21.

Skyline
 
NYCPilot said:
I realize I'm getting in a little late on the conversat A lot of CFI's also have no intention on going for a professional job, other than just teaching on the weekends for soem free flight time and partaking in their hobby.

Very true. At my flightschool, the majority of the flight instructors just do so for fun, on the weekends and a bit during the week at nights. Most of them are older, and have no intention of flying for the airlines. In the 2 years that I've been flying there, I know of about 2 out of 12 or so guys that either left for the airlines, or who are working towards that.

I know this is just my school, but it's still nothign like some people describe it.
 
Skyline said:
That comment about committing career suicide is a bit over the top but it is how I feel. I have seen ex-coworkers who at 60 realized that they wasted their lives in the cockpit. The had no friends no family and no money and now they were being forced out to the abyss.

That can happen in any career.
 
Skyline said:
I have a four year degree in aviation
For what purpose?

I hated most of it. My dream is and always was to fly for a major airline. Not because I am a greedy no good, but because I wished a better life for my self. I wanted a family and respect. I wished for a good home in a neighborhood I was happy to live in. I wanted to open my retirement statement at the end of every month and feel good about what I saw. My dream was to have 18 to 20 days off a month to enjoy some extra quality time with my friends and family. I imagined taking three month long vacations, taking the family to perhaps Europe and commuting from there. And finally, I wanted to see a picture of myself grey haired in a Captains uniform taken at the time of my retirement. There is nothing wrong with those dreams.

First, what major airline provides all that, and second, what makes you think you can't find it elsewhere? The only thing wrong with your dreams is that you have too much tunnel vision, setting yourself up for the *exact* failure/depression you find yourself in if you can't get it. While at my first airline job (groundpounding) I realized that the road to the majors wasn't worth it, wasn't guaranteed, and wasn't even a job you were going to keep. Too much sweat and not enough reward. My next job in aviation exposed me to a narrow variety of other aspects of aviation (variety of planes, but same types of flying). However, the experience in and of itself is something I will always be thanful for, even if the pay sucked. During that second job, I began to seriously pursue other prospects in aviation. I've now found a job that will pay me six figures a year on my 30th birthday, there are more jobs than applicants, I am reasonably assured of keeping this job in some form, I go home every night, and the retirement is rather stable. This job will allow me to keep my flying as a hobby, where it is most fun. The first thing I learned about aviation is it is most fun when you do it for fun, not when you do it for money. A friend of a coworker stopped by the "office" today and started asking about the airplanes. I asked if he's ever seen the inside of a non-airline jet before, and he replied that he had, they never get old. I told him to try to make a living with this stuff and he'll change his mind :) Don't get me wrong, I enjoy my current job, but it is a j-o-b first, not f-u-n.

Therefore I am not addressing those of you who desire to be the garbage men of the sky. If your aim is to simply pilot a Lear around the country and be someones whipping boy forever then have at it. If you are proud to pilot a crappy old caravan I will send flowers when you finally pile it up on approach one day. My point is that I am not talking to you. My audience is those who share the same vision as I.

It's a darn shame you couldn't find enjoyment in other aspects of aviation. There are plenty of other jobs outside of the airlines that are great jobs and great flying. Frankly, I find nothing wrong with regional airline flying (except the pay). To me, the fun is going up and down and hanging at cruise for an hour or two. Anything longer than that is just a little mind numbing. I just can't fathom hanging out at cruise for 12 hours and calling it "the life". If I could make a decent living at a regional (say $40k to start as an FO) and know that I would see $100k+ at the top of the pay scale, I'd be quite content to be flying there, and probably would be right now. Unfortunately, you seem to be a little too short sighted to realize that there are great flying jobs outside of the majors. I wouldn't even consider the majors great jobs/careers anymore.

I know; life isn't fair, luck has a lot to do with it, things change, try harder. It still bites and the path to destruction is still there.

Luck has everything to do with it. The problem with an industry where everybody does the same job is that there is nothing you can do to set yourself apart from anybody else. You're either qualified or you're not, you get randomly selected or you don't, you have a buddy at a joint or you don't, they're either hiring or they're not. ATC is a similiar career. They go through phases where they hire just about every qualified applicant, or they hire nobody. If they're hiring nobody, it makes no difference whether or not you worked hard, know people on the inside, sacrificed everything, YOU WILL NOT GET A JOB. It just so happens right now that ATC is where the hiring is at, so that is where I'm focusing my career efforts.

Flying magazine is there to sell pilot licences. Kitt Darby tells lies. You can't call it a hiring boom if it comes after 10 years of furloughs and cuts.
Ain't that the truth!

I wish someone had told me different when I was 21.
Skyline

What were you doing at 21? Me? I was building time and shortly after began working for the airlines. I did that more or less because I was tired of watching the "action" from the "sidelines." Working for the airlines (especially one that would likely give me a job) gave me a lot of perspective that Kit Darby, Flying Magaize, and Embry Riddle will not give you. I used to tell people I got paid $10 to learn things Embry Riddle made you *pay* $120,000 for. It's an exaggeration, but I still believe in the spirit of what I said. I was also that the point where I could "get out" before it was too late. My college degree has nothing to do with aviation, and my ratings were actually used for a spring board into another career. First, it was the USAF (not happening) and now it's ATC. It's too bad that your 18 year career has not been as rewarding and fulfilliing as my short SIX year career has been.
 
Skyline said:
If your aim is to simply pilot a Lear around the country and be someones whipping boy forever then have at it. If you are proud to pilot a crappy old caravan I will send flowers when you finally pile it up on approach one day.

I think you should at least respect the pilots who decided that this is what they wanted to do. At least they are happy with their jobs.

Skyline said:
I sacrificed much in my life to reach this point in my career. As you may have guessed I missed the mark by just a few inches. I have every right to be disappointed.

Being happy depends on what you make of life. You look back and see all the flying you did as a failure because you didn't make it to 747 captain, or you can look back and be proud of yourself because yo have flown a large variety of airplanes and have had a really good time doing it. You have seen the corporate world, you've flight instructed, been at the regionals, have done bush flying. C'mon man, there's something to be said about that, try to be a little bit more positive. How old are you? There may still be an opportunity for you to make it to the heavies.
 
Ask any minor league baseball player.

I truley liked what that caravan guy said, im too tired to quote em. Well said though.

i sort of understand what skyline is saying however, as both my grandfather flew for eastern pre-frank and my pop flew for DAL pre bust, call it what you will (golden era?). Both had great careers, but nobody should expect what those oldtimers received in terms of pay.

Those business models are old, times change and it will never be that way again.

skyline if you feel shorted because you dont make a quarter of a million a year, dont feel bad my freind you are in the majority - look up those stats and report back. Nobody clears that type of loot anymore.
 
That comment about committing career suicide is a bit over the top but it is how I feel.
I don't believe you mentioned career suicide before. Just suicide, and that's my concern. You sound like someone on the ropes right now, who is feeling hopeless. That shouldn't be. There is hope. It may not be the hope you want...you may or may not be flying the kind of equipment you had hoped for during your early carrer. I don't know you, don't know your situation, but there's hope. Perhaps it won't be the type of equipment...perhaps you'll be flying a 737 instead of a 777...is that a bad thing? I can't say, but flying or not, regardless of weather you have your picture taken in a retiring captain's uniform or next to a garden you've helped tend...does it really matter?

When we get so tied to our jobs, our vehicles for earning, that we tie our identity to them and our hope as a living soul, then we risk it all when we see a downturn in our lives or in the economy. Aviation is fickle. It ebbs and flows. Our lives, however, are not. The reality is that most likely we will be here on this earth a whole lot longer than our jobs will be. We were alive before we got our jobs, and we will hopefully be alive after we end our jobs. We go home at the end of the day, or week, or trip. But somehow, somewhere, we do go home.

The airplane stays behind. It is, without or without us. We are, with or without the airplane. Some despondency is normal; it's okay to feel up or down. But you weren't talking career suicide before...you brought suicide into the conversation and alluded to it more than once. PM me if you want to talk about it privately. That's okay. No names, no threat...just talk. I understand depression, believe me. But I also understand that what gets light, gets dark, gets light again...follow me?

Therefore I am not addressing those of you who desire to be the garbage men of the sky.

You're going to have a hard time winning friends and influencing others with statements like that, though I suspect that's not your goal here. For what it's worth, I've spent a fair amount of time being a real garbageman of the sky, spreading manure and things that make other things grow from airplanes...and I can't think of a better job in aviation. I've done many of them, but I haven't found one I liked better, yet.

I sacrificed much in my life to reach this point in my career.

Have you sacrificed it, or lived it? We all sacrifice, but we need to understand that sacrifice lives in two parts. One is that it involves giving up something good to get something better...the other part is that it involves giving up.

When we sacrifice and don't see or visualize the fruits of that sacrifice, we're just giving up. But no action is without a reaction. When we sacrifice and give something up, there is a flip side...the results. If we compare our sacrifice to all the things we don't have, then we feel as if we're giving up. That is not right.

I sacrifice time and money for a child's happiness. If I imagine that my money is gone and that I didn't see a dollar return for my time, then perhaps I might say I have sacrificed and lost. But a child's smile can keep me warm at night, unlike a blanket or a fire. A child's "I love you" or "thank you" can make me cry like no disaster or calamity ever could hope to do. In making the sacrifice, I need to think of the returns; can happiness be bought? Probably not, but the small price paid for helping another, for seeing that smile, or even thinking about it, is as close as I might ever come, and in truth, it comes without a price.

You spent years of sacrifice. You saw things from your cockpit that few others ever will. You flew high, you flew low. You had frustrations, moments of fear. Moments of elation. You learned that what you set your mind to doing, you could do, and you've done it. You've flown at many levels, you've flown airliners, just as you set out to do. Are you where you wanted to be yet? Not yet, as you said. But if you'd sat on a couch and watched television all these years, you'd be just as old, and you'd have missed it all. What did you gain from your sacrifie? You gained your life, to start. That's not a small thing.

As you may have guessed I missed the mark by just a few inches. I have every right to be disappointed.

I won't argue your right to be disappointed. That's for every man to decide for himself. I can't tell you weather you've missed your mark; you've already judged that for yourself. If your life isn't over yet, however, you haven't missed the mark...you just haven't reached it yet.

There's also such a thing as looking beyond the mark. Not seeing the forest for the trees. If you're like a lot of us, you're faced with or have been faced with divorce, one of the most devestating things that can happen in one's life. If you've faced personal loss and the shattering of your world in one form or another, sometimes it does seem as though nothing can ever be put right. Things end, life doesn't. You are still here. I can't tell you that you will be making a quarter of a million dollars a year, but I can tell you that if that's your goal in life, you have the option right up until you can no longer draw breath, and also that there are far, far more important things in life. Like drawing breath. See the correlation there?

Breathing is important. Making a quarter of a million dollars feels important, but it's far less than breathing, and if one stops breathing, it's not important at all.

There's no tomorrow to worry about...tomorrow never comes. Yesterday doesn't exist, but in memory. What you have is right here, right now. That's you, and your ability to be happy right where you are. If you're not happy here, you'll never be happy, because you will never be anywhere but here, in the moment. You can plan for tomorrow, but tomorrow is always a theory, because when you get to tomorrow, you'll learn it's just another today. Right here, right now, today. Life doesn't end because we don't achieve material things...life is right here, right now.

It's not over. Don't think of it as being over. Trite as it sounds, today really is the first day of the rest of your life. Mine too. Missed the mark? Not hardly...but that discussion is for tomorrow.

PM me if you wish. PM someone else if you wish. Talk to someone. Don't let this attitude eat you inside, because it's all about quality of life. Not the way you spend your money in life. Not the car you drive, not the type of airplane you fly, or the destination. It's all about the journey, it's about the ability to turn your eyes skyward and not have them ache or hurt. It's about the ability to look at yourself and tell yourself honestly that things are okay. If you can't do that, then you need to talk. I'm very serious about that. I've had friends who told me everything was okay, and then shot themselves an hour later. Don't do that. You have today, you have people who will talk to you, you aren't finished yet. Know that.

Know it.
 
Avbug

Avbug,

Thank you for the concern. I really appreciate it. Even though we may not agree on a few things I really like you. Rest at ease I am fine. All is well. I use some strong language to drive points home sometimes but I can assure you that it isn't a silent cry for help. Thanks again.

Sadly I will never be 28 again and I can't turn back time therefore I have to accept my careers end. I have seen the results of sticking with it too long and I don't want to end up there.

Today I received two phone calls from pilot Buddy's. One just got furloughed during ground school at his first airline job and the other had to turn down an opportunity at his dream company because he is to old and can't take the pay cut and move his family anymore.

Take my warnings or throw them out. All I am saying is it would be a good idea to have an exit stragety.


Skyline
 
Thanks to all of you who replied. I appreciate and respect all of your comments and opinions. I am on a few of the other airline forums and they are just as crusty and mean as I am. It is refreshing to hang here with some more positive people.

Skyline
 
avbug said:
I even know of companies that can't seem to find pilots. Go figure.

avbug,

What type companies can't find pilots these days...and why can't they ? The world "seems" to be crawling with qualified pilots.
 
You'd think so, wouldn't you?

I've always maintained that 90% of the pilots are worth their weight in salt, at best. I don't know that it's lack of applicants, but lack of qualified applicants...which is to say, not necessarily technical paper qualifications, but applicants who can fly and chew gum at the same time.
 
avbug said:
You'd think so, wouldn't you?

I've always maintained that 90% of the pilots are worth their weight in salt, at best. I don't know that it's lack of applicants, but lack of qualified applicants...which is to say, not necessarily technical paper qualifications, but applicants who can fly and chew gum at the same time.

...I see...
 
bafanguy said:
...I see...

Actually, this is simply the way his simple mind sees things. In his own imagination, only himself...the all knowing, all seeing, all doing and all that is and ever was AVBUG has what it takes to be a "qualified applicant". Only HE can fly and chew gum at the same time.

The reality of it is that, in fact, he is only qualified to sniff the sweat from the underside of my n*****k.:rolleyes:
 
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Actually, this is simply the way his simple mind sees things. In his own imagination, only himself...the all knowing, all seeing, all doing and all that is and ever was AVBUG has what it takes to be a "qualified applicant". Only HE can fly and chew gum at the same time.

The reality of it is that, in fact, he is only qualified to sniff the sweat from the underside of my *****.:rolleyes:


I rest my case. At least professionalism isn't dead.
 
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Yank My Cobb said:
Actually, this is simply the way his simple mind sees things. In his own imagination, only himself...the all knowing, all seeing, all doing and all that is and ever was AVBUG has what it takes to be a "qualified applicant". Only HE can fly and chew gum at the same time.

The reality of it is that, in fact, he is only qualified to sniff the sweat from the underside of my ******:rolleyes:

Aviation is better off without you, thanks for retiring. You have to be the most bitter negative person to ever get in a plane.....
 
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