Scary Numbers

[avbug]

I am sorry that you don't appreciate my style. I like you. I am disappointed but not sad or in a pit. My opinions come from almost two decades of experience and background. I know what goes through the heads of new pilots and why they make the choices that they do. My only aim is to be a counter voice to the tidal wave of false information that comes from magazines and gossip. News travels fast about "some guy" who got on with SWA with low time. No one wants to hear about the used up 58 year old with nothing to show for a career in the air. I know that my ideas will not sit well with this group but they are no less true and are with value. If I am sad at all it is for all my friends who were ruined by aviation and for the ones who are about to be ruined. We both care Just use diffrent approaches.

You seem to feel that nobody who disagrees with your depressed point of view has the requisite experience to know the difference. As though everybody will eventually come around to your way of thinking when they know as much as you, and have seen as much as you.

Thus far you've indicated you spent a few years flying the back country, and feel that shows extensive effort in reaching your goals. It's unfortunate that you see it as wasted time. Weather it represents a significant investment in your career I can't say, though we both clearly see it had no benifit in advancing you in the direction you wish.

A lot of folks with more experience than yourself might just disagree with you...but you are quick to label us garbagemen of the sky, or dismiss us as gypsies that haven't yet seen the light.

When everybody is wrong but you...that should tell you something.

Tell me this; you indicate twenty years in your career thus far, but at the same time, tell us that you can never achieve your goals. Why can you not achieve your goals?

 

[Skyline]

Avbug

Avbug,

The reason I feel confident in my views is that I have been around and surveyed my own experiences and those of others. There are few old timers who are still flying the smaller crummier stuff. I know one guy who is in his late 60's but he has never married and still lives with him mom.

I am sure that you could dig up a few pollyanna dreamers who would disagree but I can assure you that they are few and far in between. Some of the other Web sites like airlinepilotpay.com has a generous helping of angry, crusty old timers like me who spout the same stuff as I. I am not saying that everyone is wrong, but only those who feel strongly against my views are willing and interested in replying to my posts here.

I am in my late 30's and have watched the industry cycle a few times now. My opinion is that unless you get hired by a good company by the time you are 35 the benifits begin to sharply drop off. The way things are going now even if I were to totally invest myself again I would have to wait till I am in my early 40's before hiring heats up enough to get hired at a good place. At most companies that means I would be in my mid to late 50's before I was to upgrade, if ever. I have a wife and soon to be 4 small children. I would miss most of the best years of thier growing lives being on reserve and on the move as a junior pilot for an airline, and would have to suffer low wages again. I think it is urgent to get hired by a good company in your 20's. By the time you reach an age to start a family you will have the seniority and wages to properly support them.

These are the reasons I feel it is important for all of you to focus on getting to a real flying job. Some of these other funner things are distractions that cost a lot in the long run. Right now 20K seems like a good pay scale and you may feel comfortible but add a wife, children, a self-funded retirement plan, college savings, and a few aging parents to the mix and I assure you that your attitude will change.

Skyline

 

[avbug]

The reason I feel confident in my views is that I have been around and surveyed my own experiences and those of others.

You serveyed yourself? Now that's rhetorical. And somewhat ironic.

I am sure that you could dig up a few pollyanna dreamers who would disagree but I can assure you that they are few and far in between.

I guess I'm one of them, then.

I think it is urgent to get hired by a good company in your 20's.

That's your opinion...and a ridiculous one, at that. But you're certainly entitled to it.

I am not saying that everyone is wrong, but only those who feel strongly against my views...

Need more be said?

I am in my late 30's

And you feel it's too late. That's really sad. You sound a lot to me like what a teenager sounds like when he or she says "when I was young..."

How about an explaination of the discrepancies between these statements...which came from the same paragraph...

My opinion is that unless you get hired by a good company by the time you are 35 the benifits begin to sharply drop off. I think it is urgent to get hired by a good company in your 20's.

Evidently you haven't seen much of the industry, as you seem to have no realistic concept of the way things work. You appear to be suggesting that individuals seek employment with a major airline by the time they're in their early 20's. Seeing as most wont' graduate college until their early 20's, and won't be eligible to start seeking such a position for a good ten years or more afterward, a typical realistic starting range for many majors will be the mid thirties or later.

Folks do start earlier, but folks also start later, and in this day and age, people of all ages at all levels aren't uncommon.

You seem to have appointed yourself the missionary of dragging-people-down-to-your-level, if the first, and lowest order. Why is that? Does it bother you or threaten you that others are content in their place or position, and confident in their future? You haven't even reached a good starting point yet, have dismissed yourself as a failure, and won't be content until everyone bends their knee in abject defference to your martyrdom.

People have the capability of thinking for themselves. If you're just waking up to the realities of the industry after 20 years, then that's too bad for you. To have gone this long with your eyes closed is not only a tragedy of epic proportions (for you), but also nearly criminal. After all, our most basic responsibility is to see and avoid. If you couldn't see your career coming and avoid this disaster you have named your life, then where does that leave you?

You have the utter arrogance to assume that anyone who doesn't match your misguided idea of success is a failure. Anyone not flying for a major airline is a failure. The rest of the industry are mere polyannas, mere flying garbagemen who are unworthy to fill the roll you exhalt...a lesser genre of failed souls who fill the leftover positions that enable you to step-stone your way to the top. In your deluded and skewed viewpoint, the rest of the world around you serves as the fifedom beneath your kingdom. Foolish, saneless serfs who never made the grade and never will. Worse, your view places them all as the foolish or ignorant who will never be able to see what you can see...because you surveyed yourself.

The final irony to your arrogance is that you don't see yourself as arrogant, nor do you see that your attitude isn't a slight on the rest of the flying society, but only on yourself. It's ugly, it's jaded, it's bitter. Despite your best effort at surveying yourself, it's also far from reality.

Corporate pilots who have more days off, are home more nights, and make very high liveable wages, are fools and failures; they can never match your high standard. Freight pilots, flying for firms not in chapter 11 like most major airlines, bringing in more money per mile, often with as good or better benifits, pay, and lifestyle, will never rate your high exhalted position.

Ag pilots, flying farmers who feed the world and their own families, will never reach your exhalted position. Helicopter pilots, working long tiring hours for little thanks as they pluck survivors from rooftops and bring lifesaving supplies to crowded hospital docks, will certainly never measure up. They couldn't begin to hope to, and probably won't even try.

I won't even start with tanker pilots. We're unworthy.

Of course, you haven't touched on those of us that wear several hats...play prissy bus driver one day, and go get dirty the next. By choice. Peolpe who don't need to justify what we do or what we make, be it high or low, because perhaps we have a different standard of what constitutes success. Some of, myself included, think determining success by one's job description, by one's bottom line, and by the size of one's toys is about as infantile and immature as one can get. It speaks of a great lack of development in your own life...when you spout these things it really isn't a slight on the rest of the world, but on yourself. Translated plainly; your bitching only makes you look bad.

Think about that.

 

[Rattler71]

You serveyed yourself? Now that's rhetorical. And somewhat ironic.



I guess I'm one of them, then.



That's your opinion...and a ridiculous one, at that. But you're certainly entitled to it.



Need more be said?



And you feel it's too late. That's really sad. You sound a lot to me like what a teenager sounds like when he or she says "when I was young..."

How about an explaination of the discrepancies between these statements...which came from the same paragraph...



Evidently you haven't seen much of the industry, as you seem to have no realistic concept of the way things work. You appear to be suggesting that individuals seek employment with a major airline by the time they're in their early 20's. Seeing as most wont' graduate college until their early 20's, and won't be eligible to start seeking such a position for a good ten years or more afterward, a typical realistic starting range for many majors will be the mid thirties or later.

Folks do start earlier, but folks also start later, and in this day and age, people of all ages at all levels aren't uncommon.

You seem to have appointed yourself the missionary of dragging-people-down-to-your-level, if the first, and lowest order. Why is that? Does it bother you or threaten you that others are content in their place or position, and confident in their future? You haven't even reached a good starting point yet, have dismissed yourself as a failure, and won't be content until everyone bends their knee in abject defference to your martyrdom.

People have the capability of thinking for themselves. If you're just waking up to the realities of the industry after 20 years, then that's too bad for you. To have gone this long with your eyes closed is not only a tragedy of epic proportions (for you), but also nearly criminal. After all, our most basic responsibility is to see and avoid. If you couldn't see your career coming and avoid this disaster you have named your life, then where does that leave you?

You have the utter arrogance to assume that anyone who doesn't match your misguided idea of success is a failure. Anyone not flying for a major airline is a failure. The rest of the industry are mere polyannas, mere flying garbagemen who are unworthy to fill the roll you exhalt...a lesser genre of failed souls who fill the leftover positions that enable you to step-stone your way to the top. In your deluded and skewed viewpoint, the rest of the world around you serves as the fifedom beneath your kingdom. Foolish, saneless serfs who never made the grade and never will. Worse, your view places them all as the foolish or ignorant who will never be able to see what you can see...because you surveyed yourself.

The final irony to your arrogance is that you don't see yourself as arrogant, nor do you see that your attitude isn't a slight on the rest of the flying society, but only on yourself. It's ugly, it's jaded, it's bitter. Despite your best effort at surveying yourself, it's also far from reality.

Corporate pilots who have more days off, are home more nights, and make very high liveable wages, are fools and failures; they can never match your high standard. Freight pilots, flying for firms not in chapter 11 like most major airlines, bringing in more money per mile, often with as good or better benifits, pay, and lifestyle, will never rate your high exhalted position.

Ag pilots, flying farmers who feed the world and their own families, will never reach your exhalted position. Helicopter pilots, working long tiring hours for little thanks as they pluck survivors from rooftops and bring lifesaving supplies to crowded hospital docks, will certainly never measure up. They couldn't begin to hope to, and probably won't even try.

I won't even start with tanker pilots. We're unworthy.

Of course, you haven't touched on those of us that wear several hats...play prissy bus driver one day, and go get dirty the next. By choice. Peolpe who don't need to justify what we do or what we make, be it high or low, because perhaps we have a different standard of what constitutes success. Some of, myself included, think determining success by one's job description, by one's bottom line, and by the size of one's toys is about as infantile and immature as one can get. It speaks of a great lack of development in your own life...when you spout these things it really isn't a slight on the rest of the world, but on yourself. Translated plainly; your bitching only makes you look bad.

Think about that.

In the 4000 some odd post you have made here, have you ever been nice to anyone? It seems you must always put down other people and their ideas and anyone who doesn't agree with you is an idiot. I bet you are a riot at parties. I just wonder if you are the same way when you are not hiding behind your computer. But with your average of over 3 post a day for 5 years, obviously most of your contact with humans is from the computer.

Rattler71

 

[avbug]

Gotta ask once again, Rattler, if you have the capability within you, the most basic intelligence, to stick to the thread topic, or even to post on-topic. Can you do that? Can you?

Or are you hopping over here so we can talk some more about you? Aren't you the one that thought three things inoperative on an airplane was the end of the world? It's no wonder you have time for little to discuss outside yourself...one who goes through life that afraid of his own shadow certainly needs some source of security.

This probably isn't it, however.

No, I don't go to parties. Yes, I'm the same in person. But a whole lot less hospitable, and generally someone who you want to shake hands with in daylight. But you see, this thread isn't about me, it's about Skyline, and his feeling that the industry has let him down. He feels that it's all at an end, that he's already failed, when in fact, he's really just begun.

Perhaps he just needs some industry reassurance that he isn't at the end of his rope, yet.

In the 4000 some odd post you have made here,

Incidentally, it's that many here...I believe a lot more on the old board, and more before that...and this of a number of other boards...and yes, I do get out from behind the computer. Usually just long enough to eat, shoot, and fly.

 

[Skyline]

OH Man !!!!

Avbug

Did you just admit to being a tanker pilot??? Well you are a garbage man of the sky. I was in the same industry as you. I spent a few summers flying a Jump plane and one flying air attack. Lots of fun but it is going nowhere. Sure you will get paid well for a summer but forget the family life and kiss your summers goodbye. You see that is exactly what I am talking about. You are doing something that only total losers stick with anyone with any good sense gets out as fast as they can. I have done most of the jobs that you have mentioned like corporate. I have sat in FBO's waiting for hours like a fool for some exec to show up. Sitting at home doing nothing because I had a 30 minute call out. I know what a fruitless end most of that stuff is. I am jaded and not to far from reality it sounds like you are trying to hang on to the denial fantasy that you are in. I am old too old to make it to a good place in the industry anymore. Back when I started you couldn't even get hired by the majors unless you were under 30. You are right most are in their late 30's to early 40's by the time they get it, however a few are much younger. By the time you are in your 40's it is too late. You will enjoy the left seat for 3 to 5 years then goodbye. No money no home base no seniority. By 40 you should be senior and looking forward to upgrade.

Perhaps I am looking at this thing all wrong. Maybe kids these days don't want security, respect, good income or a family. Maybe it is cool to be a martyr. I always wanted a good life with all those things in it. I am not a masochist. Enjoy your pain cuz I am sure you will find it.

You may not believe me but I do like you. You seem like a good hearted person and someone who is sincere. I don't want to hurt your feelings or to upset you, but I feel these things need to be said. I appreciate your opinions and respect them. I am sorry if my writing style is a bit harsh.

Skyline

 

[avbug]

Did I just admit to it? As in sometime in the last decade or two, or before? Yes, flying tankers is one of the things I do, and I do by choice...and fully without any need to justify. No, if you flew air attack or a jump ship (which I've done, both), you didn't fly tankers, and have no idea what's involved. You can take that to the bank.

I hold a current card in a tanker, presently as a level 1 SEAT, and as always, am grateful for the chance.

I've been giving a lot of thought to dropping everythign else and going back to tanker work exclusively next year again...if the bottom hasn't been completely gutted out of the industry by then.

The rumors are a'flying...

Maybe it is cool to be a martyr. I always wanted a good life with all those things in it. I am not a masochist.

Masochist? No. Martyr? Yes. In your case, I think you still like it, or like the recognition that you think it brings.

 

[Skyline]

Well

Avbug,

You've got me there. You are a true believer. If flying tankers seems like a good idea to you and you don't mind all the BS that comes with being a traveling gypsy then I tip my hat to you.

Man, look at the people you work with. If you are not careful that waste of a human life that is the Captain will be you in 10 years. Most of them have no families and live out of a suitcase for six months. They are depressed loosers who couldn't make it anywhere else. The ones I knew were alcoholics and smoked a little MJ. Tanker pilots don't even build any time that anyone cares about. It is a total dead end and I mean dead like KIA. If you are satisfied with that then enjoy. I am sure there will be fun to be had for a long time yet.

I am sorry if I am arrogant but someone needs to save you from yourself.

Skyline

 

[Kingairrick]

Skyline is Flame bait. He is some pi$$ed off late 30s Delta express loser, who just took a 50% pay cut, and knows the furlough is coming. How come he didn't feel this way in '90? Huh? You remember, Pan Am and Eastern going OUT OF BUSINESS? TWA laid off 10,000 pilots? Job market worse than today? Face it man, you chose badly then, and are trying to share the misery. I stand by my earlier post. There are good jobs for good people. Jetblue, SW and Continental don't hire whining doomsday preachers, so don't bother to apply. Good fortune 500 corp. operators will smell your stench also.
I'm usually not this harsh, but you really need to learn to live and let live. I'm happy with my corp. job, Avbug is happy with his gig(s). Why is that so wrong to you? Because we're not facing pay cuts, furloughs, and no pension? Get over yourself dude, in 90 days, you'll be just another loser in the unemployment line.

Apology to other Delta Pilots: I know that most of ya'll are not of this mind. I just saw a strange coincedence between the timing of Skyline's post, and my wife's pay cut and the rest of the above crap. She is a 16 year Delta crewmember, and I'm feelin' it too...

 

[Skyline]

Skyline is Flame bait.

Kingairrick

Man I wish I was a Delta furloughee. You are right I have been watching the news tonight and it seems that perhaps the apocalypse is upon us. DAL and NWA are doing the big signal flairs. Tha band is playing and the RJ layoffs will be bloody. This could be the end of the legacy carriers and the end of the great regional hiring boom. Soon we will all be garbage men of the sky. No offence. Go ahead, love your job. I don't care what you do. I don't like the lower levels of the career and neither do most pilots. I am not flame bait. I just think it sucks to be on call for low wages and it is a good thing for you since I am sure that the guy you replaced left for an airline job. You had better hope he doesnt want it back soon. You guys remind me of beaten wives. your face is black and blue but are still truly in love. The more savage the beating the more in love you become. I just call it as I see it.

Skyline

 

[avbug]

If you are not careful that waste of a human life that is the Captain will be you in 10 years.

It is me, brightspark. The Captain. I'm a waste of human life now, am I?

This isn't my only job, but it's certainly the one I enjoy the most...and the one I do strictly because I want to do it.

You should probably stick to bashing a part of the industry you know something about...clearly this area isn't your forte.

Still, that's getting side tracked. You're here to save the masses from committing the Great Mistake which we call You. You're here to tell the little boys and girls just starting out how they shouldn't grow up like you. Mamas don't let your babies grow up to be skyline, that sort of thing.

I can't fault you there. Nobody should look forward to a future lined with your bitterness. However, in all fairness, a lot of people would feel very fortunate to be where you've been, though in your eyes they're all failures.

It's now where you are. It's not your lack of a quarter million a year in income. It's not your lack of six heavy types and the top third seniority in a major. It's your bitter attitude which is your failing.

You're doubtless familiar with the old saw that says, "W(h)eather you think you can, or think you can't, you're right." Meditate on that for a while.

You think you can't. You're right.

Your right isn't everyone else's right. Your right if for most people, wrong. Because they can. Because we can. Because I can. Because I do.

You could too...but for you.

You're doubtless familiar with the old saw, "Attitude determines altitude."

Your inability to garner meaningful work in the flight levels is determined not by your advancing years. Certainly not by your mileage. But by your attitude. I work there on a daily basis. I could be doing more, I could be doing less...but the important thing is that I don't want to.

I think your true crime in impatience. You're not willing to wait until this life ends to see if there's a heaven or a hell. You're living your hell now. Therein lies the true tragedy.

 

[FlyChicaga]

If I were a betting man, I'd say that Skyline works for ATA. If so, it almost makes his bitterness understandable.

 

[FN FAL]

If I were a betting man, I'd say that Skyline works for ATA. If so, it almost makes his bitterness understandable.

That's what I was thinking today as well.

 

[FN FAL]

It is me, brightspark.

Uh-oh...now look what you've done Skyline.

 

[bigD]

I'm beginning to think that Skyline might be one of the most effective trolls to ever come across this board. He makes obvious troll comments with his garbage man of the sky metaphor, or his calling people losers or a waste of human life. Of course, any amateur troll can make these comments. But his genius is in wrapping these comments in a believable back story of having been there, done that, as well as using a rather subdued, non-agressive tone.

Hey, it had me going too. Bravo Skyline! I've seen a lot of trolls, and you're definitely in the top 10%. But sorry man, you got careless and jerked the line too hard - the BS meter just went off the scale.

 

[mar]

Sorry if I missed it

That was an interesting story. Someone should make a movie out of that. Come to think of it wasn't there a movie starring Dennis Hopper as a drug running pilot back in the 80's. Does anyone know the title of that movie?

Skyline

Sorry if someone already answered this one, I'm short on time so I couldn't read every post.

"Double Crossed" with Dennis Hopper.

Now THAT was a great film.

I still say The Butterfly Effect sucked.

By the way, Skyline and I exchanged *very* brief PMs. I think he's for real. I also think he's right where I was about 10 years ago...

...but you know, it's nothing a little blood, sweat and tears (and a crapload of credit card debt can't solve).

Good luck man.

 

[Skyline]

Avbug

Avbug


I am here to offer a public apology. I am sorry to have offended. I am sorry if I stepped on your dreams. It is wrong of me to try and apply my interests and values to other people.

I really like you Avbug and envy your drive. Keep it up. Enjoy your career. Best of luck to all of you as well.

Skyline

 

[avbug]

Stepped on my dreams? Hardly. A dream would imply a hope for the future, that starry-eyed wishfulness that you suggest fills ignorant souls who step unknowingly into their careers. The same you suggest are sure to be blindsided by reality...the reality that only you can see.

It's no dream, it's my career, and I'm well established in it. There's nothing for you to step on. I'm quite well aware of whom I am, where I am, and what I do. I don't need, nor desire your validation to do it; my assignment remains my own. I have three main employers, as well as side work, flying tankers just happens to be one function I set out to do when I was a kid, and that I'm still involved with. Flying ag was what I did right out the door as a teenager, with my first season being the summer I graduated high school.

It's a little late to need my eyes opened by someone who has already given up, and who has not been there and has not done that.

 

[Kingairrick]

I'm beginning to think that Skyline might be one of the most effective trolls to ever come across this board. He makes obvious troll comments with his garbage man of the sky metaphor, or his calling people losers or a waste of human life. Of course, any amateur troll can make these comments. But his genius is in wrapping these comments in a believable back story of having been there, done that, as well as using a rather subdued, non-agressive tone.

Hey, it had me going too. Bravo Skyline! I've seen a lot of trolls, and you're definitely in the top 10%. But sorry man, you got careless and jerked the line too hard - the BS meter just went off the scale.

Well, he successfully pissed me off. But I'm just a dumb a$$, 'cause I turned down the interview with Continental to stay where I am. So what do I know?

 

[Skyline]

I am sorry

Avbug

I am sorry. Please accept my flag of surrender. I was wrong. I deserve your criticisms. Whatever it takes to make it right with you.

Skyline