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TangoIndiaMike
Active member
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2001
- Posts
- 34
Bafan,
The reply wasn't directed at you. Yes, companies today do have a hard time filling slots. It may be a company that's offering a position with specific requirements. Ample applicants respond, but few are often qualified. Or it may be a position in a remote, less desirable area. Or a lower paying position. Some will become self-indignant and stammer that the operator should be paying more...but not every mom and pop operation out there can afford a quarter of a million a year. Some don't pay so well, and that's a fact of life.
I've sent applications to companies before only to have them respond, "you're over qualified." Now I didn't know anybody could be overqualified for anything. I think the term is an oxymoron. Either you're qualified, or you're not. But their intent was clear; they were asking if the job might be a step backward. I didn't think so, but apparently the majority of their applicants did, and consequently, they had a hard time filling the slot.
I recently viewed an advertisement on a web site for a part time pilot. I read the ad, and felt that the pay was extremely low. I contacted the individual who placed the ad, a doctor who was looking for a personal pilot to fly him once a month to a vacation spot. We corresponded for a short interval. A nice enough guy, and quite sincere, he wanted to pay fifteen thousand a year for a pilot to fly a piston commander half way across the country, once a month. He wanted pilots with a minimum of five thousand hours experience, and a reasonable amount of commander experience.
According to him, he has no shortage of applicants. While there may be experienced pilots who think this is a treat, I think it's an insult, and I told him as much. He felt that on a day for day breakdown, it was reasonable, but that's up to interpretation, I suppose. In his case, he claims he has no trouble finding pilots. In many other cases, I would suspect that the job wouldn't be easy to fill.
Even with the glut of instructors clammering for their first job, restrictions by aircraft type, work type, etc, still mean that the inexperienced may not be qualified, and the more experienced may not want the job. How many here who have any significant experience could afford to go take a job at a regional airline?
I worked for a company flying Lears. We had six pilots in a row who didn't perform. Several didn't fly a single trip. One didn't even come home. He took his type training, and got a different job right out the door of Flight Safety in Tuscon. Our company didn't pay the top dollar in the industry, and we had a hard time filling slots with people who had the honor to stick around after they accepted the training and the type rating. (All six came from one of two backgrounds that, in my experience, is prone to that kind of action).
Another company flying a Sabreliner required at least one of the pilots to hold an A&P certificate. This isn't uncommon. A lot of pilots hold Sabre types. Most who hold sabre types don't have a mechanic certificate. Of those, not a lot would necessarily want to move to a small mountain town. And so on...consequently, even though the job is there, it may not be readily fillable.
Another problem I see is that applicants sound good, but you never know until you get them in the saddle, how they'll do. We had a pilot this last year who badly wanted to fly for us. We noted his experience, asked him to go get some more and check back in a year. He located an operator and checked with us to see if the experience would be a good start. We said yes, he started work, and after three landings crashed the airplane. We couldn't use him now if we wanted to...the insurance says no...but far better the insurance says no than our airplane got wrecked, too...he had all the paper qualifications, but lacked the basic skills.
In the last year I've had two F/O's whose competence I seriously questioned. I went to far as to write the chief pilot letters about both,and then place phone calls asking if perhaps their background wasn't the same as what they preached. To my knowledge, they're both still full time pilots, but I can't imagine how they made it as far as they did. I was dumbfounded. One told me that my job was to make him a captain, and my response was that he needed to learn to be a first officer, first. After a little exposure, my response was that he needed to learn how to fly, first.
I've had a lot of F/O's that are great...I've sent letters of recommendation on their behalf. But just this last year, two that stunned me with their lack of competence. There's no other way to say it. These are folks who either "built time" or merely penned in what they had. One claimed to have had over six thousand hours, but I don't think I've ever met a two hundred hour private pilot who wasn't superior to that individual.
One can always fill positions, but one never knows for certain what one has until that person goes to work. I've met that level of incompetence at all levels. An air ambulance operation for whom I worked employed a chief pilot who was a raging idiot. He and I butted heads like you wouldn't believe. I finally left, and a few months later they fired him. It took two incidents, which had been going on all along, for them to finally do it...but they fired him. The first one...he was flying a VOR approach at night into a very rural mountain airfield on a moonless night, and had his altimeter set 500' too low. He forgot the gear, and a medic happened to catch him on both, inside the FAF. The second incident, a week later, involved him taxiing off the taxiway at the same field in the daylight, through the rocks, with an emergency patient on board, and stopping inches from catching a prop on a rock in the BE 20.
High time pilots, low time pilots, not worth their weight in salt. Lots of good pilots out there, too...but advertising for pilots is a little like fishing with a net. You take what you can find, and pick and choose with your best judgement, or the best judgement of those employed to do it for you. In the case of the raging incompetent chief pilot, the company was managed from a distance, and the distant people just couldn't see how bad the chief pilot was. They were also using someone else's certificate, and the chief pilot was employed by that someone else. The Chief Pilot hired new pilots, which threw the whole hiring process into question. You can see how it might snowball from there.
Yank thinks it's just me...but we see it at all levels, in all forms, in all departments. The Sabretech folks, et al, who loaded unsecured oxygen cannisters on Valuejet. The Alaska folks who pencil whipped work cards and mislubed the jackscrew on an Alaska MD80. The recent BE1900 loss involving an improperly rigged elevator, ad infinitum. People doing the work with paper qualifications but not necessarily worth what's written on the paper, and as a result, people died. It's not arrogance on my part, it's a fact of life.
Yes, with all the paper-qualified applicants out there, sometimes jobs aren't easy to fill. From time to time, I've been responsible for filling them, and I'm quite convinced about whence I speak, based not on jaded mistrust, but on observation. You'd think the jobs would be easy to fill...but it's not always the case. In my experience, far better to wait for the right applicant than hire in haste and pay the consequences.
The reply wasn't directed at you. Yes, companies today do have a hard time filling slots. It may be a company that's offering a position with specific requirements. Ample applicants respond, but few are often qualified. Or it may be a position in a remote, less desirable area. Or a lower paying position. Some will become self-indignant and stammer that the operator should be paying more...but not every mom and pop operation out there can afford a quarter of a million a year. Some don't pay so well, and that's a fact of life.
I've sent applications to companies before only to have them respond, "you're over qualified." Now I didn't know anybody could be overqualified for anything. I think the term is an oxymoron. Either you're qualified, or you're not. But their intent was clear; they were asking if the job might be a step backward. I didn't think so, but apparently the majority of their applicants did, and consequently, they had a hard time filling the slot.
I recently viewed an advertisement on a web site for a part time pilot. I read the ad, and felt that the pay was extremely low. I contacted the individual who placed the ad, a doctor who was looking for a personal pilot to fly him once a month to a vacation spot. We corresponded for a short interval. A nice enough guy, and quite sincere, he wanted to pay fifteen thousand a year for a pilot to fly a piston commander half way across the country, once a month. He wanted pilots with a minimum of five thousand hours experience, and a reasonable amount of commander experience.
According to him, he has no shortage of applicants. While there may be experienced pilots who think this is a treat, I think it's an insult, and I told him as much. He felt that on a day for day breakdown, it was reasonable, but that's up to interpretation, I suppose. In his case, he claims he has no trouble finding pilots. In many other cases, I would suspect that the job wouldn't be easy to fill.
Even with the glut of instructors clammering for their first job, restrictions by aircraft type, work type, etc, still mean that the inexperienced may not be qualified, and the more experienced may not want the job. How many here who have any significant experience could afford to go take a job at a regional airline?
I worked for a company flying Lears. We had six pilots in a row who didn't perform. Several didn't fly a single trip. One didn't even come home. He took his type training, and got a different job right out the door of Flight Safety in Tuscon. Our company didn't pay the top dollar in the industry, and we had a hard time filling slots with people who had the honor to stick around after they accepted the training and the type rating. (All six came from one of two backgrounds that, in my experience, is prone to that kind of action).
Another company flying a Sabreliner required at least one of the pilots to hold an A&P certificate. This isn't uncommon. A lot of pilots hold Sabre types. Most who hold sabre types don't have a mechanic certificate. Of those, not a lot would necessarily want to move to a small mountain town. And so on...consequently, even though the job is there, it may not be readily fillable.
Another problem I see is that applicants sound good, but you never know until you get them in the saddle, how they'll do. We had a pilot this last year who badly wanted to fly for us. We noted his experience, asked him to go get some more and check back in a year. He located an operator and checked with us to see if the experience would be a good start. We said yes, he started work, and after three landings crashed the airplane. We couldn't use him now if we wanted to...the insurance says no...but far better the insurance says no than our airplane got wrecked, too...he had all the paper qualifications, but lacked the basic skills.
In the last year I've had two F/O's whose competence I seriously questioned. I went to far as to write the chief pilot letters about both,and then place phone calls asking if perhaps their background wasn't the same as what they preached. To my knowledge, they're both still full time pilots, but I can't imagine how they made it as far as they did. I was dumbfounded. One told me that my job was to make him a captain, and my response was that he needed to learn to be a first officer, first. After a little exposure, my response was that he needed to learn how to fly, first.
I've had a lot of F/O's that are great...I've sent letters of recommendation on their behalf. But just this last year, two that stunned me with their lack of competence. There's no other way to say it. These are folks who either "built time" or merely penned in what they had. One claimed to have had over six thousand hours, but I don't think I've ever met a two hundred hour private pilot who wasn't superior to that individual.
One can always fill positions, but one never knows for certain what one has until that person goes to work. I've met that level of incompetence at all levels. An air ambulance operation for whom I worked employed a chief pilot who was a raging idiot. He and I butted heads like you wouldn't believe. I finally left, and a few months later they fired him. It took two incidents, which had been going on all along, for them to finally do it...but they fired him. The first one...he was flying a VOR approach at night into a very rural mountain airfield on a moonless night, and had his altimeter set 500' too low. He forgot the gear, and a medic happened to catch him on both, inside the FAF. The second incident, a week later, involved him taxiing off the taxiway at the same field in the daylight, through the rocks, with an emergency patient on board, and stopping inches from catching a prop on a rock in the BE 20.
High time pilots, low time pilots, not worth their weight in salt. Lots of good pilots out there, too...but advertising for pilots is a little like fishing with a net. You take what you can find, and pick and choose with your best judgement, or the best judgement of those employed to do it for you. In the case of the raging incompetent chief pilot, the company was managed from a distance, and the distant people just couldn't see how bad the chief pilot was. They were also using someone else's certificate, and the chief pilot was employed by that someone else. The Chief Pilot hired new pilots, which threw the whole hiring process into question. You can see how it might snowball from there.
Yank thinks it's just me...but we see it at all levels, in all forms, in all departments. The Sabretech folks, et al, who loaded unsecured oxygen cannisters on Valuejet. The Alaska folks who pencil whipped work cards and mislubed the jackscrew on an Alaska MD80. The recent BE1900 loss involving an improperly rigged elevator, ad infinitum. People doing the work with paper qualifications but not necessarily worth what's written on the paper, and as a result, people died. It's not arrogance on my part, it's a fact of life.
Yes, with all the paper-qualified applicants out there, sometimes jobs aren't easy to fill. From time to time, I've been responsible for filling them, and I'm quite convinced about whence I speak, based not on jaded mistrust, but on observation. You'd think the jobs would be easy to fill...but it's not always the case. In my experience, far better to wait for the right applicant than hire in haste and pay the consequences.
smellthejeta
The plane I solo'd in
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2003
- Posts
- 588
FN FAL said:
You got that right. My pep talk to people who tell me that their son/daughter wants to fly is this: "If they've never set foot in an airplane, discourage them from doing so. This is no longer an industry that you want your children to make a career in. However, if they've got a few hours of flight time under their belt, do not DISCOURAGE them from continuing, because a) they won't listen and b) they will hate you for it."
wrxpilot
The proud, the few
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2004
- Posts
- 901
Skyline said:
I can't help but feel pissed when I see comments like this, purely because of the arrogant sense of entitlement. Welcome to the rest of the world. I know people that BUST THEIR ASS all their life in the professional world and top out at $85k and 20 days of vacation/yr. Not garbage men or landscapers, but civil and mechanical engineers, physicists, accountants, etc. And many of them are thankful! Much moreso than you, who thinks they are somehow entitled to some jet pilot fantasy life. My father, who is one of the hardest working men I know, busted his ass installing carpet to support our family. We were lower middle class at best. Then he hurt his knee, went back to school, and was a successful computer programmer. Got back on top only to see his company implode and a huge portion of his job opportunities go overseas. He now struggles to make $45k/yr and is 55. But he works hard and will be on top of his game again. He doesn't bi&tch 1/10 the amount that you do either.
I agree with many here that the SJS and PFT stuff is bad and I will never go that route. I'll stay in engineering and just be a weekend CFI if I have to. But I would have no problem with an aviation career topping out at $150k/yr and working 20 days/mo to do something I loved.
Not all doctors and lawyers are making $200/hr, and if you want QOL and lots of vacation, you will probably not be seeing that in law.
FN FAL
Freight Dawgs Rule
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2003
- Posts
- 8,573
WRXpilot
WRX pilot,
Man when an airline pilot works more than half the month it is like you working 14 hours at day for six days a week. It is no fun being gone more than half the time. When you are on the road it is common to have 12 to 14 hour duty days and then you have the minimum 8 to 10 hours in the hotel room. At the conclusion of every three day trip it can take a day or two until you are feeling well again. By the time you are feeling like enjoying your days off it is time to head out again. 18 days off a month is necessary for a balanced and healthy life as an airline pilot.
Skyline
WRX pilot,
Man when an airline pilot works more than half the month it is like you working 14 hours at day for six days a week. It is no fun being gone more than half the time. When you are on the road it is common to have 12 to 14 hour duty days and then you have the minimum 8 to 10 hours in the hotel room. At the conclusion of every three day trip it can take a day or two until you are feeling well again. By the time you are feeling like enjoying your days off it is time to head out again. 18 days off a month is necessary for a balanced and healthy life as an airline pilot.
Skyline
wrxpilot
The proud, the few
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2004
- Posts
- 901
Skyline said:
Yes, I agree with you if that's the type of flying you're doing. If you are doing 12-14 hr duty days, you need to work much less than 20 days/month. But the typical max hours in a month (still) for airlines is around 80/month. Assuming you had a 12 hr duty day, you're gate to gate time is going to be around 7 hrs, so you'd hit your times within about 12 flying days. Am I totally off base here on my estimates?
Mr Wu
Swe'gen
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2005
- Posts
- 1,278
wrxpilot said:
Yes, you are off on your times. A 121 pilot can be on duty for 16 hours, 6 days a week. Rarely does the duty day average 7 hours block, more like 5. So, a pilot hits his 80 hours in 16 days. 16 x 16 = 256. This averages 6 weeks 2 days work for someone that has a 40 hr a week job.
A Squared
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 3,006
By the same token, the *average* duty day is not 16 hours, 16 hours is the maximum you can be on duty you're not going to *average* the maximum (and if I understand 121.471(c) correctly you can't possible average 16 hours of duty over several days) yet you present the 16 hours as if it's an average. Averageing 16 hours of duty day in day out is no more realistic than averageing 7 hours of block time on a regular basis.GrnClvrs said:
mar
Remember this one?
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2001
- Posts
- 1,929
No Regrets man !!!
Remember. These are the best days of your life !! The things you do, the accomplishments made, the sacrifices taken will stand as a testament to the accomplishments of all mankind. You guys are Pilots man !!! Pilots !!! Thank God you didn't waste your lives as an emergancy room Doc or ACLU attourney. Right or wrong the world needs you all. SO get out there and fuel that 150, study your manuals and text books, eat your canned mac and cheese and FLY !! The world needs you. NO REGRETS !!!
Skyline
Remember. These are the best days of your life !! The things you do, the accomplishments made, the sacrifices taken will stand as a testament to the accomplishments of all mankind. You guys are Pilots man !!! Pilots !!! Thank God you didn't waste your lives as an emergancy room Doc or ACLU attourney. Right or wrong the world needs you all. SO get out there and fuel that 150, study your manuals and text books, eat your canned mac and cheese and FLY !! The world needs you. NO REGRETS !!!
Skyline
Skyline,
Your schtick has become has become stale. You feel down, in a pit, your life has become a failure. Not everyone chooses to be be dragged into your pit. You're upset that the word doesn't see your tragedy as deeply or dramatically as you...frustrated that the biggest wave of sympathy that rolls out after you is an emphatic "who cares?"
Get thee behind me, Satan. I'm tired of listening to you.
Your schtick has become has become stale. You feel down, in a pit, your life has become a failure. Not everyone chooses to be be dragged into your pit. You're upset that the word doesn't see your tragedy as deeply or dramatically as you...frustrated that the biggest wave of sympathy that rolls out after you is an emphatic "who cares?"
Get thee behind me, Satan. I'm tired of listening to you.
Avbug
Avbug
I am sorry that you don't appreciate my style. I like you. I am disappointed but not sad or in a pit. My opinions come from almost two decades of experience and background. I know what goes through the heads of new pilots and why they make the choices that they do. My only aim is to be a counter voice to the tidal wave of false information that comes from magazines and gossip. News travels fast about "some guy" who got on with SWA with low time. No one wants to hear about the used up 58 year old with nothing to show for a career in the air. I know that my ideas will not sit well with this group but they are no less true and are with value. If I am sad at all it is for all my friends who were ruined by aviation and for the ones who are about to be ruined. We both care Just use diffrent approaches.
Skyline
Avbug
I am sorry that you don't appreciate my style. I like you. I am disappointed but not sad or in a pit. My opinions come from almost two decades of experience and background. I know what goes through the heads of new pilots and why they make the choices that they do. My only aim is to be a counter voice to the tidal wave of false information that comes from magazines and gossip. News travels fast about "some guy" who got on with SWA with low time. No one wants to hear about the used up 58 year old with nothing to show for a career in the air. I know that my ideas will not sit well with this group but they are no less true and are with value. If I am sad at all it is for all my friends who were ruined by aviation and for the ones who are about to be ruined. We both care Just use diffrent approaches.
Skyline
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