Sad Night!!!

[Diesel]

I don't need a secure forum. The ability to start and end my tours from where I needed to be was a good for both the company and myself. I started quite a few tours in europe for the company when I had to be there on business. I knew I couldn't always count on it but more than once it enabled the company not to have to airline someone over, which would be me anyways since I live so close to london.

Clear enough for you?

 

[Pervis]

You imply that loss of secondary income due to the loss of travel arrangements previously enjoyed is costing you 20k annually. If that is the case, I truely feel bad for you. However, how many of the whole would have benefited from a similar arrangement? I will venture to say very few. I will agree that the limits we now have for travel and basing are rediculous, and hopefully we can negotiate something like your used to.

You will gain security and other benefits you may feel you had, but were not guaranteed. I know you've heard it before, but I am another who had to "learn" what advantages a union could do for me both personally and collectively.

One aspect I know some will lose is the more intimate relationship they had with scheduling. That ability to work extra days (extending) when it was to the company's and the individual pilot's advantage is what is known as the "A" Team in the group you are now a part of. If that is what you feel you are losing, you will find zero sympathy from most, especially from those furloughed. I have the impression you are not part of that group, but you know darn well it wasn't so unusual in the recent past.

 

[HiSpeedFlyer]

Like the two or three that found their way onto this thread? Fact of the matter is there are just disgruntled a-holes on both sides.

To the 98% of guys who are genuine and welcome me.... Thank you, and the feelings are returned.

To the other 2%.... I'm #1900-something on the list and I'm a GIV Captain... Na-nan-a-boo-boo! F'ers!

Damn, Bro... How to make friends and influence people!:nuts:

 

[gutshotdraw]

Damn, Bro... How to make friends and influence people!:nuts:

Thats "How to WIN Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnegie. Just sayin'

 

[ozpilot]

Pervis

You do realise Diesel is a cross over pilot right? He's in a unique position to comment on the pros/cons of working conditions at both NJA and NJI.

When he talks about flexibility, he's not talking about extended days - hes talking about situations that arise that benefit both the pilot and the company that are simply not possible given the constraints of the contract we have at NJA.

For example - can you come out a day early if we send you home a day early? Or - I see your in London - how about we start your tour there as opposed to airlining you back to Boston so you can start there.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad we have a contract at NJA. But it also imposes a rigidity that sometimes conflicts with the dynamic business environment that is Netjets.

I think that's what Diesel is getting at and I completely agree with him. Trust me, if your knew Diesel you would know he would never take anything away from a furloughed pilot.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

Damn, Bro... How to make friends and influence people!:nuts:

Hopefully you see the sarcasm in my childish statement. I have flown with as many NJA pilots in the past two years as I have NJI guys. I get along with them all. (and yes, Diesel is one of our favorites, has been from the time he showed up. A very well balanced, educated guy.) To the minority who wants to see me stapled... the childish response is for you.

On a very serious note, you have members in leadership within the union who are very open about the next contract, and having the provisions of the LOA removed in it. Obviously that is the life blood of my job and my seat. Any attempts to do so, will be meet with the best option myself and fellow pilots like me have at the time.

I've flown two tours back to back with BBJ guys. Had a blast with both of them. They've been here longer than me and ANYONE on the E-Board combined. When they're telling me they don't have any say so in the direction ASAP takes... well that speaks volume.


Wolf...

This whole integration shouldn't be personal. But from reading what I have, it was taken that way from more than one union member who will gladly speak his mind.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

hes talking about situations that arise that benefit both the pilot and the company that are simply not possible given the constraints of the contract we have at NJA.

Winner Winner Chicken Dinner



OZ has it, 100%. It was never about screwing your buddy over by playing the phone lines. My wife was a scheduler for NJI, she's the most honest and forthright person on the earth. If she could help you out and didn't cost the company money, or hose someone else, she did it and never even thought twice.

NJI had an atmosphere of getting the job done using the most common sense approach. Whats wrong with that?

 

[Diesel]

Damn Oz you ruined the fun of it. I was waiting for Pervis to walk down that path.

I was booking flights back to the mother country for Christmas and my wife was asking me if I was going to tell them I was over there so they could use me after my 7 days was up. I told her that flexibility was no more, and that I would have to come back to the states only probably to fly back to europe the next day. This actually happened to me once. I landed from europe back home got home late and then had a page from scheduling saying they were so so so sorry but i had to go back, so after a couple of hours I was back on the return flight same plane.. No big deal.

Don't get me wrong there are some really good things the union can do and does. I think a lot of NJI agree with that after the last 6 months of changes that were just "imposed" on us.

For instance look at the FOM that NJI is bringing to NJA. No need to carry it around and it stays in the plane. But guys are bitching about not having a hard copy. WTF

 

[Pervis]

Oz, I realize Diesel is a crossover, thus my last sentence that I believe he was not part of that group who extended with a phone call. I know it happened. I heard it right from the mouths of those who did it on a very regular basis, with a gain of tens of thousands of extra income per year.

Diesel, I too would very much like to see more flexibility, and I believe that could be done. It would require oversite by union staff to ensure it wasn't abused like it has been on both sides in years past. We don't have that privilege-yet.

Wolf, I don't doubt the majority of schedulers and pilots are straight shooters. There are the 5%er's in all offices though. Did you (not you personally) not have more direct access to your schedulers in the past? Did you hear about the Falcon gang who got caught and terminated? Or the lenghty repos that coincidentally had a return repo weeks/days later? Why do you think we can't dead head on empty legs anymore. Maybe a typical knee jerk reaction, but the abuse was there. It's a lot tougher to police a much bigger crowd I guess, and for that I truely appreciate the sadness for losing that small, tight knit group previously known as NJI.

As far as eliminating certain LOA provisions, as far as I know of (not much, BTW), the only thing any of us are interested in is removing the GIV fence. The only way the vast majority of us would agree is if no one gets bumped or loses a thing. In fact, the goal is to bring everyone UP, not get even or make others pay. Staple? No way. The point is moot anyway. The union leadership is a very small group, and any agreement takes the majority of a much larger group.

Yes, there is a very small number of SICs who will be waiting a very long time to upgrade into a G, but far less than would have been the case had RTS not upgaded nearly every pilot on the property. That's fine-what was done is done. And the pay will be the same for every captain until the 15 yr(?) point. Unfortunately not everyone will be happy with every aspect of any contract. If you've lost the ability for more to feel better about their employment conditions, I am sad for that loss as well. Let's make it better for all in the future.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Winner Winner Chicken Dinner

Hey! I stole that fair and square. You can't have it back...

 

[ksu_aviator]

Admittedly, I'm an outsider looking in. But, it seems to me that all of you NJA guys/gals saying welcome to the NJI guys/gals are probably getting a collective finger from behind the monitor.

The NJI pilots were happy. They liked their jobs and they wanted it to stay that way. But you people just couldn't let that be, could you? You had to force them into the union for "their own good." Probably because you wanted to be able to take their jobs later.

NJA is exactly what is wrong with unions. Your behavior was abhorrent. To cannibalize your own for the sake of power is as shameful as it comes. Those of you that support unions, just remember that your union derives its power from your misery. What would the NJA union have done for the last few years had they not been trying to destroy the NJI jobs?

 

[imacdog]

Outside looking in. That's all you had to say. NJA and NJI are becoming they way they should always have been - one operation.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Admittedly, I'm an outsider looking in.

Noted.

 

[NJAowner]

Just to chime in with my 2 cents. Many on the board know from over the years that I am, generally, not one that sees great benefit to the members of a union. However, from my seat in the back, I am benefited by and do appreciate a structure which allows pilots to call "fatigue" without other ramifications or pressures. Maybe it is the union that makes that possible and protects the pilots, therefore, protecting me and my family.

 

[rajflyboy]

Hopefully you see the sarcasm in my childish statement. I have flown with as many NJA pilots in the past two years as I have NJI guys. I get along with them all. (and yes, Diesel is one of our favorites, has been from the time he showed up. A very well balanced, educated guy.) To the minority who wants to see me stapled... the childish response is for you.

On a very serious note, you have members in leadership within the union who are very open about the next contract, and having the provisions of the LOA removed in it. Obviously that is the life blood of my job and my seat. Any attempts to do so, will be meet with the best option myself and fellow pilots like me have at the time.

I've flown two tours back to back with BBJ guys. Had a blast with both of them. They've been here longer than me and ANYONE on the E-Board combined. When they're telling me they don't have any say so in the direction ASAP takes... well that speaks volume.


Wolf...

This whole integration shouldn't be personal. But from reading what I have, it was taken that way from more than one union member who will gladly speak his mind.

You are outnumbered by 6 or 7 to one. You have been GIVEN everything this time around. You won't be so lucky next time.

 

[rajflyboy]

Just to chime in with my 2 cents. Many on the board know from over the years that I am, generally, not one that sees great benefit to the members of a union. However, from my seat in the back, I am benefited by and do appreciate a structure which allows pilots to call "fatigue" without other ramifications or pressures. Maybe it is the union that makes that possible and protects the pilots, therefore, protecting me and my family.

You are right on about this! No doubt about it.

 

[gunfyter]

Just to chime in with my 2 cents. Many on the board know from over the years that I am, generally, not one that sees great benefit to the members of a union. However, from my seat in the back, I am benefited by and do appreciate a structure which allows pilots to call "fatigue" without other ramifications or pressures. Maybe it is the union that makes that possible and protects the pilots, therefore, protecting me and my family.

Even Santulli said this at one of our hangar meetings a few years ago. He said with pilots you want a union... you don't want pilots in a position they can be pressured to fly, when they should not be.


Also this article from the AIN.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Bermuda First Country To Require SMS for Aircraft Entry[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Starting today, Bermuda is requiring all foreign operators of business aircraft with an mtow of more than 12,500 pounds to have a safety management system (SMS) and meet other requirements under ICAO Annex 6.2.3. For U.S. operators, this includes both Part 91 and 135 operators. Besides the precedent-setting SMS requirement, affected operators will also need an operations manual, fatigue management program, MMEL, Type 1A flight data recorder and crew microphone-based communication system. Additionally, aircraft with an mtow exceeding 59,400 pounds are required to have a Type 1 FDR and a cockpit voice recorder. The Bermuda Department of Civil Aviation (BDCA) said any of the following would show SMS compliance: IS-BAO registration, Air Charter Safety Foundation (ACSF) registration, Argus rating, Wyvern registration, an SMS manual deemed acceptable by the state of registry or proof of intent to produce an SMS. For Part 91 operators, this wording leaves IS-BAO the only compliance method since the FAA has yet to establish an SMS NPRM for Part 91, let alone Part 135. In fact, the FAA only last week issued an SMS proposed rule for Part 121 operators. Compliance with the ICAO annex “will be monitored by random ramp inspections at the L.F. Wade International Airport. Operators discovered to be not compliant will be refused entry to Bermuda until they can demonstrate compliance,” BDCA said.[/FONT]
​

A Union is the best Fatigue Management Program you can get! Yes! You can thank the Netjets Pilot's union for the Part 91K prospective rest rules we all enjoy now. Otherwise there would be a lot more fatigued pilots flying out there.... Afraid to lose their jobs if they refuse the trip!

 

[x402]

Admittedly, I'm an outsider looking in. But, it seems to me that all of you NJA guys/gals saying welcome to the NJI guys/gals are probably getting a collective finger from behind the monitor.

The NJI pilots were happy. They liked their jobs and they wanted it to stay that way. But you people just couldn't let that be, could you? You had to force them into the union for "their own good." Probably because you wanted to be able to take their jobs later.

NJA is exactly what is wrong with unions. Your behavior was abhorrent. To cannibalize your own for the sake of power is as shameful as it comes. Those of you that support unions, just remember that your union derives its power from your misery. What would the NJA union have done for the last few years had they not been trying to destroy the NJI jobs?

Do you really fly for a living? Do you fly for fractional? You clearly have no clue about what has transpired in this industry. I'm guessing you fly for some 135 operator and are happy to have any flying job, good for you keep those sights set high, but leave this forum to those of us with a stake in it and some understanding of the business.

 

[NachoMamma]

However, from my seat in the back, I am benefited by and do appreciate a structure which allows pilots to call "fatigue" without other ramifications or pressures. Maybe it is the union that makes that possible and protects the pilots, therefore, protecting me and my family.

There is no "maybe" about it. Left un-checked, the company would do what any company would do in the name of share holder profit - push crews at all costs to maximize revenue (too tired to fly or not). This industry is one of few that REQUIRES a strong union presence to oversee and enforce duty rules thereby ultimately benefiting our owners. Clearly our little "KSU" buddy is far too new to aviation to be able to comprehend this concept.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

You are outnumbered by 6 or 7 to one. You have been GIVEN everything this time around. You won't be so lucky next time.

Ah yes... the indirect threat of the looming negotiations in which payback is h*ll for the NJI guys. Yeah yeah... I get it. There are plenty of guys on the union board saying the same thing... using their 'real' name flea-boy.