Rumor Alert! - Delta/NWA SLI

johnsonrod

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
Posts
4,218
Total Time
8000+
Rumor alert! Rumor alert!

Just heard a rumor from a NWA buddy in Detroit that the SLI would include relative seniority and "dynamic lists" on both sides with no fences. That's what he said.

Evidently "dynamic lists" means leapfrogging for retirement. I am not exactly clear on what that means or the implications for either side. My buddy suggested that it looks like relative seniority would win out (in the end).

Again, this is a RUMOR from a NWA buddy who supposedly is "in the know." Sure, it could be false but he has been pretty reliable and he has been there for a long time.

Discuss...
 

nonstop

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 1, 2002
Posts
262
Total Time
xx,xxx
It's pretty simple, the idea has been tossed around for almost a year now. They ratio us together and everyone gets their slot. Now for visualization purposes picture that seniority list color coded, each NWA pilot red each DAL pilot blue. Every time a blue pilot leaves all the blue pilots move up, every time a red pilot leaves every red pilot moves up.

DAL will get their ratio (well not necessarily their proposed ratio but some form of a ratio instead of DOH) and NWA will get their more imminent attrition.

If done right everyone starts where they started, moves up when they would have moved up and finishes where they would have finished (retired).
 

On Your Six

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 8, 2004
Posts
4,509
Total Time
9,500
Sounds like a fair proposal to me. Of course, I don't have a stake in this game.

The "no fences" aspect would be interesting - probably get a bunch of NWA people bidding off the Diesel 9 into bigger equipment if they have the seniority. Management would probably appreciate that scheduling flexibility too.
 
Last edited:

rf285

Well-known member
Joined
May 21, 2004
Posts
189
Total Time
7000
I'd rather have DOH if the alternative is a dynamic list. DAL pilot, but I'm on '07 hire.
 

FlyinPiker

Incon-fricking-spicuous
Joined
Sep 6, 2005
Posts
348
Total Time
*_*
If done right everyone starts where they started, moves up when they would have moved up and finishes where they would have finished (retired).
In periods of stagnantation, displacements and furloughs I could see it being a real mess. It would kind of be like musical chairs...would just depend on where you were when the music stops (two years into your furlough you might be able to come back and kick another guy back on the street...why would you remain furloughed if during that time your seniority was high enough to have a job?).
 
Last edited:

jetjockey#1

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 17, 2005
Posts
161
Total Time
7200
It's pretty simple, the idea has been tossed around for almost a year now. They ratio us together and everyone gets their slot. Now for visualization purposes picture that seniority list color coded, each NWA pilot red each DAL pilot blue. Every time a blue pilot leaves all the blue pilots move up, every time a red pilot leaves every red pilot moves up.

DAL will get their ratio (well not necessarily their proposed ratio but some form of a ratio instead of DOH) and NWA will get their more imminent attrition.

If done right everyone starts where they started, moves up when they would have moved up and finishes where they would have finished (retired).
That sounds good, as long as when and if they park a red or blue a/c the respective pilots go along with them. Also, when a red or blue pilot moves up he/she should be able to upgrade only in his own respective equipment. I know red pilots probably don't like that, but if it's a dynamic list for retirements it should be a dynamic list for deliveries and furloughs.


In others words it is not going to work. It is way too complicated, relative seniority is the way to go.

The day after the SLI list comes out you should be able to hold the same equipment and schedule as the day before.

A pilot who can only hold narrow body A/C by seniority, should not be in a position to bid a widebody equipment at the expense of somebody who is already on the A/C.
 

recallsomeday

Active member
Joined
Apr 4, 2003
Posts
33
Total Time
7000+
So if someone is 10% from the bottom now, they should be 10% from the bottom on the new SL.

I agree.

>>>>>>>>>>>>
In others words it is not going to work. It is way too complicated, relative seniority is the way to go.

The day after the SLI list comes out you should be able to hold the same equipment and schedule as the day before.

A pilot who can only hold narrow body A/C by seniority, should not be in a position to bid a widebody equipment at the expense of somebody who is already on the A/C.[/quote]
 

AirportBum

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 7, 2004
Posts
82
Total Time
4000+
as long as when and if they park a red or blue a/c the respective pilots go along with them. Also, when a red or blue pilot moves up he/she should be able to upgrade only in his own respective equipment. I know red pilots probably don't like that, but if it's a dynamic list for retirements it should be a dynamic list for deliveries and furloughs.

In others words it is not going to work. It is way too complicated.
I agree with you mostly. The big problem comes in when determining over the next 40 years (there are some 25 year old DAL pilots on the list) what constitutes a "red" or "blue" aircraft. This leaves the door wide open to infighting and more arbitration (a la red vs. green). Also, this essentially creates a fence if red pilots can only fly red airplanes and vice versa.

You're absolutely right, it is very complicated. Just because it's hard doesn't necessarily means it's not worth pursuing. A well written ruling with lots of examples will go a long way towards solving many of these issues ahead of time.

A pilot should be able to hold on day 2 what he holds on day 1. But if there's also a way for that pilot to maintain some semblance of career expectations, then it should be addressed, regardless of the complexity.

Glad I'm not in charge of making this decision. DOH, Relative, or Dynamic with/without fences all have their problems when used alone. Some combination of the above will probably end up most fair and equitable.

We'll know in less than a week.
 

Fly4hire

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 6, 2005
Posts
861
Total Time
lots
Rumor alert! Rumor alert!

UNTRUE RUMOR

Just heard a rumor from a NWA buddy in Detroit that the SLI would include relative seniority and "dynamic lists" on both sides with no fences. That's what he said.

NEITHER MERGER CMTE KNOWS ANY DETAILS. THEY WILL BE BRIEFED A DAY BEFORE IT'S MADE PUBLIC


Again, this is a RUMOR from a NWA buddy who supposedly is "in the know." Sure, it could be false but he has been pretty reliable and he has been there for a long time.

THE "IN THE KNOW" CONTACTS I HAVE SPOKEN TOO HAVE NO IDEA WHICH WAY IT'S GOING TO GO

Discuss...
There is the possibility the arbitrators could leak something to compel the parties to get back to the table, but I have heard "a less than 1% chance" used to describe that at this point.
 
Last edited:

ACL65PILOT

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Posts
4,621
Total Time
9000+
I heard this last night. As with everything the devil is in the details.
Is the ratio that we start with your seniority number, and does it stay there when the dynamic part of the award kicks in? That is huge. If dynamic means that NWA and DAL guys get to bid for seats vacated by their retiring pilots, but retain the arbitrated seniority, this is fair, but if the dynamic part also means that people are leap frogging on seniority numbers as well, it will cause a lot of issues.
 

NuGuy

Ex-Commuter
Joined
May 30, 2003
Posts
2,375
Total Time
10000
Heyas,

Four ratio groups, variable by group

Dynamic overlay for a 10-15 year period

No staples, no fences.

ACL, what you are talking about, where people only bid into their equipment, is just a fence. The award will probably be the "full Monty" as presented by NWALPA. "Dynamic seniority" probably has become Bloch's pet project.

But you'll have your ratios....

Nu
 
Last edited:

qxdash8

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 20, 2005
Posts
92
Total Time
6000+
Or this from the hearings:

"Committee demonstrated a technique – christened “pull out/plug in” – that is designed to provide to the NWA pilot group a “treatment” for the small, temporary attrition imbalance, see DRX-21 at 9, that it will experience in the first ten years after the merger. The basic concept of the pull out/plug in method is to remove from the NWA seniority list a block (100, 173 or some lesser or greater number) from among the 500 oldest active pilots. DRX-29 at 3. When the block of pilots is pulled out, all pilots junior to these pulled-out pilots “move up the ladder”. Then, with the pull out block still excluded from the list, the status and category ratios are built. Finally, each pulled out pilot is reinserted into the integrated list, one number junior to the pilot who was immediately senior to that pilot on the standalone NWA list."

This gives the NW side credit for their upcoming retirements, without the HUGE mess that a dynamic list would cause.
 

NuGuy

Ex-Commuter
Joined
May 30, 2003
Posts
2,375
Total Time
10000
Or this from the hearings:

"Committee demonstrated a technique – christened “pull out/plug in” – that is designed to provide to the NWA pilot group a “treatment” for the small, temporary attrition imbalance, see DRX-21 at 9, that it will experience in the first ten years after the merger. The basic concept of the pull out/plug in method is to remove from the NWA seniority list a block (100, 173 or some lesser or greater number) from among the 500 oldest active pilots. DRX-29 at 3. When the block of pilots is pulled out, all pilots junior to these pulled-out pilots “move up the ladder”. Then, with the pull out block still excluded from the list, the status and category ratios are built. Finally, each pulled out pilot is reinserted into the integrated list, one number junior to the pilot who was immediately senior to that pilot on the standalone NWA list."

This gives the NW side credit for their upcoming retirements, without the HUGE mess that a dynamic list would cause.
Heyas,

I'm sure this was attempted during the mediation sessions. The actual number of "pullouts" that the data supported is significantly greater than 173, and that's probably where the mediation was angling towards. I'm sure it was unacceptable to the DAL guys due to the downline effect on the bottom of the list.

No doubt, the number of pullouts was argued to a great extent. Assuming that both sides take a stand, the arbitrator would probably pick a number somewhere in the middle. Fully implemented, the bottom of the DAL list takes a disproportionate hammer from the pull out methodology if you use a number that is likely from arbitration (say, around 400).

Nu
 

ACL65PILOT

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Posts
4,621
Total Time
9000+
Like I said, the devil is in the details, and not one has that. From talking to people close to this, no one knows anything.
 

Fly4hire

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 6, 2005
Posts
861
Total Time
lots
Heyas,

Four ratio groups, variable by group

Dynamic overlay for a 10-15 year period

No staples, no fences.

ACL, what you are talking about, where people only bid into their equipment, is just a fence. The award will probably be the "full Monty" as presented by NWALPA. "Dynamic seniority" probably has become Bloch's pet project.

But you'll have your ratios....

Nu
Wasn't going to say anything, but I heard 6 Groups:

WB (744, 747, 330, 777, 742) Capt, WB F/O, MWB (757/767) Capt, MWB F/O, NB (DC9, MD, 737, 320)Captain, NB F/O.
 
Last edited:

ACL65PILOT

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Posts
4,621
Total Time
9000+
Yep, if it goes exactly like the rumors are, you guys hit a grand slam. But, suspect that not all of the rumors are correct.
 

rf285

Well-known member
Joined
May 21, 2004
Posts
189
Total Time
7000
Acl,

Where are you hearing these rumors? It is very bad for us DAL '07 hires. It makes DOH look great for us.
 

Deadend

Active member
Joined
Feb 8, 2007
Posts
27
Total Time
6000
If you are a DAL 07 Hire you should hope for DOH. Why else would you be entitled to anything better than that?? All new hires after 01 should be DOH. No better/No Worse.
 
Top