Rude Welcome Awaits JetBlue

[Bavarian Chef]

You're right, my bad. It's that simple. I am seeing the light through the holy gospel according to Flightinfo. Don't know what I was thinking. Anyone else wanna help me?

 

[J32driver]

Anyone else wanna help me?

Yeah... I'll take a stab at it. I see you are a "mil" guy. Just curious what your career path was that brought you to JetBlue. Did you go mil-legacy-furlough-Jetblue or just mil-JetBlue? I'm just trying to get a feel for what is forming your perspective.

I agree with alot of the things you say, but... I certainly don't feel things are all that bad. Could the reserve system be a bit better? Of course (long call would be nice), but I don't know of any other place where you can average 14 or 15 days off a month on reserve when you factor in that Crew Services releases you when they can. I also don't know of anyplace where you can move your reserve days at will as long as they have the coverage.

Life is always different for the top 25% of a seniority list. Thats just airline life. I also agree that our compensation package must change to reflect the slowed growth. I have faith that will happen one way or another.

In short... take a deep breath and try to enjoy coming to work. Things will work out in time. We are still EXTREMELY young and it takes a long time to build a GREAT compensation package. Whats the saying, "Rome wasn't built in a day". Just ask a senior Southwest dude.

We have an enjoyable place to work. Everything else in due time.

 

[JBPA]

Anyone else wanna help me?

Like I told you a year or so ago....'taint worth it. These folks, while seemingly noble (more like naive), are the same ones calling everyone 'whiners' over at bp.com. The bottom line is that nothing is going to improve here without considerable effort from US(pilots - not UsAir). It's easy to label 'considerable effort' as whining, especially if you're a 'follower'-type person. Based on some of my research (PCG-sham, scumbag lawfirm on retainer, revenue buffoonery, etc.), it'll likely take real negotiations by real negotiators before our pay and benefits come anywhere close to the now-pillaged, once respectable industry averages. If you believe that our compensation should be tied soley to company profits then please don't ever be a negotiator! Oh wait, I just described every member of the management-appointed PCG. My bad! With our 'cost plus a small profit' pricing plan, I'm not so sure that we're going to see any near-term improvements to our compensation (I'm not expecting any for -320-again, I hope I'm wrong). J32's correct about building an airline and the timing for SWA-esque pay. However, I'm getting tired of subsidizing boneheaded decisions by folks who are largely unqualified for the positions they're in.

I hope I'm wrong about D&D and the laughable PCG. I really do. Either way, meet and greets start up again around January. Contrary to whoover said -320 folks wouldn't leave, I've been in the left seat of the 'Bus for a while and am looking elsewhere.

I am still having fun here. And I too try to go the extra mile whilst at work. That doesn't mean that I blindly trust D&D (or the PCG), think everything is copasetic here (despite my <500#), or will keep my mouth shut about our crappy pay and benefits.

Then again, I've never been one to accept mediocrity. You?

...now I'm off to my underground evil lurker's lair...

 

[accinelli]

As a flight attendant, you sure would have first hand knowledge of that one, huh putz?

The truth is hard to bear -- isn't it. Are you afraid that your company can't compete so they will implement a flowback -- which will have you flying the cherished RJ again?

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Yeah... I'll take a stab at it. I see you are a "mil" guy. Just curious what your career path was that brought you to JetBlue. Did you go mil-legacy-furlough-Jetblue or just mil-JetBlue? I'm just trying to get a feel for what is forming your perspective.

I agree with alot of the things you say, but... I certainly don't feel things are all that bad. Could the reserve system be a bit better? Of course (long call would be nice), but I don't know of any other place where you can average 14 or 15 days off a month on reserve when you factor in that Crew Services releases you when they can. I also don't know of anyplace where you can move your reserve days at will as long as they have the coverage.

Life is always different for the top 25% of a seniority list. Thats just airline life. I also agree that our compensation package must change to reflect the slowed growth. I have faith that will happen one way or another.

In short... take a deep breath and try to enjoy coming to work. Things will work out in time. We are still EXTREMELY young and it takes a long time to build a GREAT compensation package. Whats the saying, "Rome wasn't built in a day". Just ask a senior Southwest dude.

We have an enjoyable place to work. Everything else in due time.

Thanks, all better.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Like I told you a year or so ago....'taint worth it. These folks, while seemingly noble (more like naive), are the same ones calling everyone 'whiners' over at bp.com. The bottom line is that nothing is going to improve here without considerable effort from US(pilots - not UsAir). It's easy to label 'considerable effort' as whining, especially if you're a 'follower'-type person. Based on some of my research (PCG-sham, scumbag lawfirm on retainer, revenue buffoonery, etc.), it'll likely take real negotiations by real negotiators before our pay and benefits come anywhere close to the now-pillaged, once respectable industry averages. If you believe that our compensation should be tied soley to company profits then please don't ever be a negotiator! Oh wait, I just described every member of the management-appointed PCG. My bad! With our 'cost plus a small profit' pricing plan, I'm not so sure that we're going to see any near-term improvements to our compensation (I'm not expecting any for -320-again, I hope I'm wrong). J32's correct about building an airline and the timing for SWA-esque pay. However, I'm getting tired of subsidizing boneheaded decisions by folks who are largely unqualified for the positions they're in.

I hope I'm wrong about D&D and the laughable PCG. I really do. Either way, meet and greets start up again around January. Contrary to whoover said -320 folks wouldn't leave, I've been in the left seat of the 'Bus for a while and am looking elsewhere.

I am still having fun here. And I too try to go the extra mile whilst at work. That doesn't mean that I blindly trust D&D (or the PCG), think everything is copasetic here (despite my <500#), or will keep my mouth shut about our crappy pay and benefits.

Then again, I've never been one to accept mediocrity. You?

...now I'm off to my underground evil lurker's lair...

Yeah, I am with you now, but it took me a while to feel this way. What really deflated me was the RTP site and the whole idea of charging customers according to what the market costs and not according to what it will bear. That tells me that all the extra stuff (save for OET) I do at work really has no bearing on whether we make money or not. Yeah, the extra effort that every jb pilot puts out every flight might help with a little brand loyalty, but it sure as he11 ain't gonna add to the bottom line. Management will always find a way to be just "barely profitable" whether it is growth costs or taxes for executive stock options. And don't get me wrong, I believe in the product and the high level of customer service we provide, but none of us at jb, from pilots to rampers are fairly compensated for what we do to keep this airline afloat every single day. I think Neeleman needs to go, I think both Inflight and the Pilot group need to organize (if just to improve scheduling issues, reserve, work rules etc) and I think we need to have some pride and charge more for our product.

In the absence of those changes (not to mention increasing health care costs, decreasing benefits and a lagging payscale) it makes staying at jb for some magical payoff very hard to stomach (and don't even get me started on upgrade times at current fo pay scales). We may be destined for years of mediocrity at jb, or maybe we won't. But there need to be some serious changes in the next year or we will hit some really rough times.

And as for a previous post, I enjoy work for what it is. Some of y'all gotta let it go. There is no magic at jb. It's an airline plain and simple, not a "brand" or "culture" like some would like to believe. And yes, sometimes it may be more fun than some other places. But that doesn't mean that some of our peers wouldn't work at a place that is less "magical" for 20 more bucks an hour, no cabins to clean and a respectable benefit package. Stronger legacies and more recalls spell some serious trouble for jb (IMHO) in the not-so-distant future if the bar isn't raised. And that makes it a very unpleasant place to work for those of us that choose or want to stay.

That's my take.

 

[slyf15e]

Correction on the A-320 upgrade time
6.6 X 178 A-320 = 1175 A-320 Captains
7.2 X 178 A-320 = 1281 A -320 Captains
You pick the crew ratio!
If you are lower than 1300, you will NEVER upgrade on the A-320. The 1300 seniority level is going lower and lower depending on how many airplanes we sell to RTP. Established carriers have retirements, we do not.
Just simple math! I feel for you guys at the lower end of the seniority list. Something has to be done about FO compensation. We cannot afford to lose a bunch of pilots to other carriers.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

It's cheaper at JB, now, to hire and train a new pilot than retain one. Soooo, until we reach some kind of exodus threshold, I think you'll see management accept the numbers we have now leaving. My feeling is, once the threshold is met to where many folks are leaving to a point where training is not keeping up (not likely), then they will be serious about addressing some of these pay/benefit issues. Soooo, if you guys on the fence don't mind, please start leaving to allow those us staying a higher possibility of upgrading and maybe getting better pay/benefits. Thank you.

 

[SoCentralRain]

I think both Inflight and the Pilot group need to organize (if just to improve scheduling issues, reserve, work rules etc)

Hey Bavarian Chef:

A question for you: Is this your first airline? (Someone asked you a few posts ago. You didn't answer.) If so, ask any one of your former union member co-workers about how well a union treated them at their last carrier. It's just not so simple as *hocus pocus* we've got a union, then *poof* everything associated with scheduling, reserve and work rules are all better. It's a negotiated give and take. But there is some "take."

UA had one hell of a contract prior to 9/11. Afterwards, "Here's your furlough notice. No hard feelings." Live by the sword--die by the sword.

Cheers,

SCR

 

[slyf15e]

The Chef has issues and you all want to send him away! The fact of the matter is JB is currently a have and have not airline. The A-320 Captains have, all else have not. Take a look at 12 year pay scales below. The JB rates are based on a Effective rate working 85 hours. However the Captain to FO percentage would not change at base pay.

Company Captain FO FO/Capt %

American 161 109 67%
Contin 144 98 68%
delta 149 102 68%
Northwest 159 108 67%
United 131 90 68%
US Air 138 91 65%
SWA 191 131 66%
Jetblue 150 89 59%

JB FO's are the least paid and make the least percentage of the captains they fly with. This is compounded with profit sharing (if and when we get any) and CSPP.

 

[elag777]

Correction on the A-320 upgrade time
6.6 X 178 A-320 = 1175 A-320 Captains
7.2 X 178 A-320 = 1281 A -320 Captains
You pick the crew ratio!
If you are lower than 1300, you will NEVER upgrade on the A-320. The 1300 seniority level is going lower and lower depending on how many airplanes we sell to RTP. Established carriers have retirements, we do not.
Just simple math! I feel for you guys at the lower end of the seniority list. Something has to be done about FO compensation. We cannot afford to lose a bunch of pilots to other carriers.

If the projections for a/c #'s are accurate,(which doesn't include another terror attack or oil reaching $100 a barrel) It is quite feasible that the 320 capt seniority numbers will hit 1600 plus by 2011, but I am sure you might find a quicker path to the left seat elsewhere! and yes that takes into consideration of slowed growth and retiring of older a/c.

I know I know, you wanted to upgrade in 11 months right!

 

[Bavarian Chef]

If the projections for a/c #'s are accurate,(which doesn't include another terror attack or oil reaching $100 a barrel) It is quite feasible that the 320 capt seniority numbers will hit 1600 plus by 2011, but I am sure you might find a quicker path to the left seat elsewhere! and yes that takes into consideration of slowed growth and retiring of older a/c.

I know I know, you wanted to upgrade in 11 months right!

so where are your numbers? nice way of calling selling airplanes, retiring older aircraft. you so funny.stop being so condescending. nowhere have I stated I thought I was owed anything, that I expected an 11 month upgrade or that I didn't understand seniority. you continue to miss the point.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Hey Bavarian Chef:

A question for you: Is this your first airline? (Someone asked you a few posts ago. You didn't answer.) If so, ask any one of your former union member co-workers about how well a union treated them at their last carrier. It's just not so simple as *hocus pocus* we've got a union, then *poof* everything associated with scheduling, reserve and work rules are all better. It's a negotiated give and take. But there is some "take."

UA had one hell of a contract prior to 9/11. Afterwards, "Here's your furlough notice. No hard feelings." Live by the sword--die by the sword.

Cheers,

SCR

the union didn't furlough those pilots, the company did.first airline, but been union before in a different field. should we not want a union because there were some alpa members that were furloughed? you telling me unions aren't worth it in any case?better yet -- you think jb management would be willing to negotiate towards better pay and benefits if we all stopped whining pro and con on bp.com and actually united ourselves behind one coherent position? nah, 1700 emails with 1700 opinions will do the trick. it has to. it's the jb way.

 

[B6Driver]

the union didn't furlough those pilots, the company did.first airline, but been union before in a different field. should we not want a union because there were some alpa members that were furloughed? you telling me unions aren't worth it in any case?better yet -- you think jb management would be willing to negotiate towards better pay and benefits if we all stopped whining pro and con on bp.com and actually united ourselves behind one coherent position? nah, 1700 emails with 1700 opinions will do the trick. it has to. it's the jb way.

Please stop your public sob story of how bad you have it.

 

[clickclickboom]

the union didn't furlough those pilots, the company did.first airline, but been union before in a different field. should we not want a union because there were some alpa members that were furloughed? you telling me unions aren't worth it in any case?better yet -- you think jb management would be willing to negotiate towards better pay and benefits if we all stopped whining pro and con on bp.com and actually united ourselves behind one coherent position? nah, 1700 emails with 1700 opinions will do the trick. it has to. it's the jb way.

You keep mentioning bluepilots.com let me guess are you one of the 4 idiots that seem to sling their venom nonstop on that board? I went there for my first time today.. What a waste.. Almost as much of a waste as doing the same thing here on flight info..

 

[IAHERJ]

Company Captain FO FO/Capt %

American 161 109 67%
Contin 144 98 68%
delta 149 102 68%
Northwest 159 108 67%
United 131 90 68%
US Air 138 91 65%
SWA 191 131 66%
Jetblue 150 89 59%


Where do you get these #'s. If you are comparing the A-320 to Continental 737 you must have pulled out the 300/500 scale because our comparable 800/900 aircraft pay a higher rate than you posted. It is 163 I believe at year 12. Thanks
IAHERJ

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Please stop your public sob story of how bad you have it.

It's we, not me. And keep your PMs to yourself, blue brother, but thanks for wishing me well ...

 

[elag777]

If the projections for a/c #'s are accurate,(which doesn't include another terror attack or oil reaching $100 a barrel) It is quite feasible that the 320 capt seniority numbers will hit 1600 plus by 2011, but I am sure you might find a quicker path to the left seat elsewhere! and yes that takes into consideration of slowed growth and retiring of older a/c.

I know I know, you wanted to upgrade in 11 months right!

so where are your numbers? nice way of calling selling airplanes, retiring older aircraft. you so funny.stop being so condescending. nowhere have I stated I thought I was owed anything, that I expected an 11 month upgrade or that I didn't understand seniority. you continue to miss the point.

The top post wasn't directed at you, but you seem to be a bit touchy about the 11 month thing? I don't think I missed your point.
Correct me here, you have never worked at an airline before?
You have never experienced a rsv system?
You expected things to be Rosy during the launch of a brand new a/c never flown in passenger service before?
Your expectations were higher and you feel that now you made a bad choice in coming to B6?
If you are in the 1200 range you are not on rsv unless you choose to be or you are on the bus?
As far as I know 190 upgrades may hit your # around Feb or March?(oh wait you will be back on rsv) Where else does it happen that fast Mesa?

If I sound condescending it is because you and many others went into this with a choice,320 or 190 you made it so now live with it or move on. Frankly I am tired of all the whining from guys on the property less than a year.

Aside from all that I think a 190 rate adjustment is imminent.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

You keep mentioning bluepilots.com let me guess are you one of the 4 idiots that seem to sling their venom nonstop on that board? I went there for my first time today.. What a waste.. Almost as much of a waste as doing the same thing here on flight info..

Nope. Only 20 posts in 9 months. But what part of the things I said could be characterized as "venom" or "idiotic"? Do you people lose you civility on purpose or just because I happened to talk about some of what really is going on at jb? Go reread all of my posts on this board if you want. I have defended JB plenty of times and have said many complimentary things about the company. Either way, I am free to offer my opinion as you are to sling mud at it and as a reservist I wouldn't have it any other way.

One last question and I am done: If you had been at SWA when they first organized, would you have resisted it? Don't you think the union has worked out for SWA? Isn't there the same potential at jb?

 

[Bavarian Chef]

If the projections for a/c #'s are accurate,(which doesn't include another terror attack or oil reaching $100 a barrel) It is quite feasible that the 320 capt seniority numbers will hit 1600 plus by 2011, but I am sure you might find a quicker path to the left seat elsewhere! and yes that takes into consideration of slowed growth and retiring of older a/c.

I know I know, you wanted to upgrade in 11 months right!



The top post wasn't directed at you, but you seem to be a bit touchy about the 11 month thing? I don't think I missed your point.
Correct me here, you have never worked at an airline before?
You have never experienced a rsv system?
You expected things to be Rosy during the launch of a brand new a/c never flown in passenger service before?
Your expectations were higher and you feel that now you made a bad choice in coming to B6?
If you are in the 1200 range you are not on rsv unless you choose to be or you are on the bus?
As far as I know 190 upgrades may hit your # around Feb or March?(oh wait you will be back on rsv) Where else does it happen that fast Mesa?

If I sound condescending it is because you and many others went into this with a choice,320 or 190 you made it so now live with it or move on. Frankly I am tired of all the whining from guys on the property less than a year.

Aside from all that I think a 190 rate adjustment is imminent.

Read my profile to find out what airplane I am on. Pretty simple, may actually negate this last post.

I love that last part about the "guys on property less than a year." What was I thinking? We already have a union at jb. Who cares about the bottom 500 or so.

Look I am outta this one. I have better things to do. You dudes act like I killed your cat.