Rude Welcome Awaits JetBlue

[BLUE BAYOU]

Giggle all you want now, but after the losses continue quarter after quarter, it will not be funny anymore. The JBLU quarterly earnings call will continue to be a game of "guess the excuse." What will be the excuses for the losses throughout the winter? Poor weather? Increased ATC delays? Let me guess, everything except poor management. Our CEO and COO are the only Major Airline management team still in place since 9/11-- I'd say they're committed to doing a good job, not selling us out and taking their millions like the others have...

If you think I am the lone ranger when it comes to being a JBLU hater, you should check out the union board. The vast majority has a seething hatred of a group that comes out weekly with new and innovative ways to whore out the profession. You're not the only lone ranger, but you ought to point your finger in the direction of the Freedoms, Mesas and the Republics who've driven the profession down faster and harder. Last I looked at pay scales, I do better than a UA captain flying the same equipment and I don't have to work 85-90 hours and get only 13 days off...

Speaking of which....how do you guys have time to post so much on here? Shouldn't you be out doing back to back trans-cons? If any of your flight attendants fall asleep due to fatigue on the trip, be sure to fire them. When you have 1700 pilots with laptops and wireless capability, it's not hard to understand why we have the time or the means.

God bless the "5 year contract." So far how many pilots have been released at their five year point, ahhh let me count here, ahhh, ZERO!!!! Lighten up Francis!!

 

[J32driver]

Giggle all you want now, but after the losses continue quarter after quarter, it will not be funny anymore.

Frank... I generally find you amusing in a sick sort of way. But you are starting to speak like a zealot. You are loosing your charm.

Stick with the witty bantor, you are much better at it than the spewing of venom.

Ok... I gotta get off the boards and figure out how to single handedly whore out the profession some more.

 

[accinelli]

ORD is ready for B6. Breath of fresh air actually.
What ever happened to the Spirit of competition.
Lets see the majors compete with service along with price (the service aspect is conveniently forgotten).

 

[clickclickboom]

I agree Usually I like Franks comments and in a sick sort of way he looks like my 7th grade math teacher..

Step back and add to the fun here or you will start to sound like those two buffoons 32lt some one and jp4 bbj king someone

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Don't forget to calculate retirement.....

Lowering the bar?

After a legacy pilot averages in his paycheck value while on furlough and strike, I wonder who makes more money over a 20+ career...

....even so, if the A and B plans survive in to retirement. The legacy pilot will have made much more than the LCC pilot and will have flown less hours. Not a proud fact, just a fact.

 

[Spectre]

Which one of you jb pirates thinks the 320 upgrade is three years? Are you kidding me?

I bet it is 5-6 years for me at a 10/month rate. The 190 thing is gonna screw everything up when the fence goes down.

I guess it depends when you were hired. You must be a new hire if I figure my math correctly around line number 1450ish. If you had 600 FO's in front of ya, how long do you think it would take to upgrade at NWA or UAUA or LCC or Delta right now. More like 10-15 years at legacies as most have negative growth and only upgrades to fill retirements. Then again, I don't think you'd be a new hire there since they aren't hiring. Even SWA upgrades are running 5-6 years. If you really wanted a fourth stripe, you can take an E190 upgrade in 1-2 years. There are many pilots who'd love to have the so called problem you seem have here at JB.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

I guess it depends when you were hired. You must be a new hire if I figure my math correctly around line number 1450ish. If you had 600 FO's in front of ya, how long do you think it would take to upgrade at NWA or UAUA or LCC or Delta right now. More like 10-15 years at legacies as most have negative growth and only upgrades to fill retirements. Then again, I don't think you'd be a new hire there since they aren't hiring. Even SWA upgrades are running 5-6 years. If you really wanted a fourth stripe, you can take an E190 upgrade in 1-2 years. There are many pilots who'd love to have the so called problem you seem have here at JB.

Wrong. Low 1200s. Been hear little over one year. I bet my upgrade to bus ca will be 4-5 years from Jan 2007. That will be 5-6 years at substandard fo wages. Don't forget to factor all of that slowdown in. Why upgrade to the 190? I can make as much as a 320 FO with much more seniority and MUCH less hassle (maint issues, up and down up and down up and down etc etc, uncommutability etc).

You argument about the legacies doesn't work here. Even the bankrupt ones pay better and offer better benefits.

As for the ones that are willing to have my problem, it's called a ponzi scheme.

One bright spot though -- there will be plenty of pilots leaving or being recalled (2 in my class gone already, 2 more soon to follow) so maybe we will all upgrade from attrition.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

I guess it depends when you were hired. You must be a new hire if I figure my math correctly around line number 1450ish. If you had 600 FO's in front of ya, how long do you think it would take to upgrade at NWA or UAUA or LCC or Delta right now. More like 10-15 years at legacies as most have negative growth and only upgrades to fill retirements. Then again, I don't think you'd be a new hire there since they aren't hiring. Even SWA upgrades are running 5-6 years. If you really wanted a fourth stripe, you can take an E190 upgrade in 1-2 years. There are many pilots who'd love to have the so called problem you seem have here at JB.

You know, this place is alright if you are an Airbus captain senior to 500 or so. It is a different company after that. Especially for our JetBlue Express operators.

 

[SellingDirt]

Chef

just a question; why don't you leave. If your disgusted with B6 it would seem logical to punch out. You talk like your entitled to something? Am I missing something, An entrepreneur started a business and offered to pay you a salary that you accepted? Make no mistake, you "work for the man". If your disgusted about pay, benefits ect... go start an airline or better yet jump into Real Estate, it's a great way to make a Lot of money. Just an observation

 

[Spectre]

Wrong. Low 1200s. Been hear little over one year. I bet my upgrade to bus ca will be 4-5 years from Jan 2007. That will be 5-6 years at substandard fo wages. Don't forget to factor all of that slowdown in. Why upgrade to the 190? I can make as much as a 320 FO with much more seniority and MUCH less hassle (maint issues, up and down up and down up and down etc etc, uncommutability etc).

You argument about the legacies doesn't work here. Even the bankrupt ones pay better and offer better benefits.

As for the ones that are willing to have my problem, it's called a ponzi scheme.

One bright spot though -- there will be plenty of pilots leaving or being recalled (2 in my class gone already, 2 more soon to follow) so maybe we will all upgrade from attrition.

Don't count on any A320 pilots to leave when recalled. I do agree about some leaving from the E190 FO ranks though. I'm with you about pay and benefits. As it takes longer now for upgrades, the FO wages needs to be seriously looked at to make sure we are competitive with other carriers. I think our management will "do the right thing" and you'll see those adjustments made here soon.

We all got a 30% pay increase after 9/11 and it may be time to see some increases now as the market will allow. It's pretty hard to get raises when you're not making money. Financially, 2007 looks like a good year.

First two year's FO pay at JB are competitatve. 3-5 years down the road needs improvement. Maybe someday, we'll all have SWA parity.

JB FO A320 1st year $51, 2nd year $56
JB FO E190 1st year $37, 2nd year $40
NWA DC9 1st year $30, 2nd year $57
Delta 737 1st year $48, 2nd year $66
UAUA 737 1st year $31, 2nd year $50
LCC E190 1st year $41, 2nd year $44
AAI FO 1st year $43, 2nd year $56
SWA FO 1st year $52, 2nd year $88

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines.html

 

[clickclickboom]

You know, this place is alright if you are an Airbus captain senior to 500 or so. It is a different company after that. Especially for our JetBlue Express operators.

I remember a vastly different Bavarian Chef just a few months back..

I understand that things have changed slightly and as an FO I am not real happy about that either BUT would you rather see the company make smart moves for long term or just throw it all away.. We are still talking 14-16% growth next year..

You will see an FO increase but in the meantime you can choose to be a part of the solution or a part of the problem. What is your choice?

 

[Scope out RJ's]

ORD is ready for B6. Breath of fresh air actually.
What ever happened to the Spirit of competition.
Lets see the majors compete with service along with price (the service aspect is conveniently forgotten).

As a flight attendant, you sure would have first hand knowledge of that one, huh putz?

 

[elag777]

Wrong. Low 1200s. Been hear little over one year. I bet my upgrade to bus ca will be 4-5 years from Jan 2007. That will be 5-6 years at substandard fo wages. Don't forget to factor all of that slowdown in. Why upgrade to the 190? I can make as much as a 320 FO with much more seniority and MUCH less hassle (maint issues, up and down up and down up and down etc etc, uncommutability etc).

Where were you before? I am sure they miss you. It is amazing to hear that someone with a little over 12 months feels cheated or that he/she is owed something.

You argument about the legacies doesn't work here. Even the bankrupt ones pay better and offer better benefits.

Well in that case go back when you get the call, I'll drive you to the train station. Maybe you don't have that option, but I am sure you can find somewhere else to complain?

I guess when you get to upgrade you will be bitchin about the rsv lines....:bawling:

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Don't count on any A320 pilots to leave when recalled. I do agree about some leaving from the E190 FO ranks though. I'm with you about pay and benefits. As it takes longer now for upgrades, the FO wages needs to be seriously looked at to make sure we are competitive with other carriers. I think our management will "do the right thing" and you'll see those adjustments made here soon.

We all got a 30% pay increase after 9/11 and it may be time to see some increases now as the market will allow. It's pretty hard to get raises when you're not making money. Financially, 2007 looks like a good year.

First two year's FO pay at JB are competitatve. 3-5 years down the road needs improvement. Maybe someday, we'll all have SWA parity.

JB FO A320 1st year $51, 2nd year $56
JB FO E190 1st year $37, 2nd year $40
NWA DC9 1st year $30, 2nd year $57
Delta 737 1st year $48, 2nd year $66
UAUA 737 1st year $31, 2nd year $50
LCC E190 1st year $41, 2nd year $44
AAI FO 1st year $43, 2nd year $56
SWA FO 1st year $52, 2nd year $88

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines.html

I know of two in my class that will leave the Airbus when they can. It is happening. Plenty of my 190 classmates are pretty fed up with the whole 190 side. Upgrade times were what kept dudes coming to jetblue and allowed us to stomach historically low payscales and inadequate benefits. Long upgrades coupled with long reserve times put a dent in salaries and earnings potential across the board.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

I remember a vastly different Bavarian Chef just a few months back..

I understand that things have changed slightly and as an FO I am not real happy about that either BUT would you rather see the company make smart moves for long term or just throw it all away.. We are still talking 14-16% growth next year..

You will see an FO increase but in the meantime you can choose to be a part of the solution or a part of the problem. What is your choice?

You are right, I am a little different. Yet I do my job like everyone else. And I do it well. I owe the company that. But what I do has no bearing on whether we are profitable or not. Come on boys, let's not pretend all is well at jb.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

I guess when you get to upgrade you will be bitchin about the rsv lines....:bawling:

Why wouldn't I? Reserve at jb is horrendous, cs is horrendous. But then only those on reserve or those that have stood reserve in the last two years know that. Your comment, the classic purse slap, has no real point. If you want to pretend that all is well at jb, then go right ahead.

Jb would be a good job if it weren't for the pay and benefits and underwater options and scheduling "guidelines" ... well it would be a good job. Not great. Just good. No epiphanies here.

And I never said I was cheated or was owed something. Those were your words, maybe you inferred it from my tone. All I did was state my opinion on the current state at jb, an opinion shared by many on our own little mess of a website.

If you and others think there is light at the end of the tunnel, then I am happy for you to be able to see that far ahead in the future. Jb is a very risky place to be right now, IMHO. Take it or leave it. It's not an indictment of you or any other jb pilot that thinks otherwise.

Good day.

 

[elag777]

Why wouldn't I? Reserve at jb is horrendous, cs is horrendous. But then only those on reserve or those that have stood reserve in the last two years know that. Your comment, the classic purse slap, has no real point. If you want to pretend that all is well at jb, then go right ahead.

Jb would be a good job if it weren't for the pay and benefits and underwater options and scheduling "guidelines" ... well it would be a good job. Not great. Just good. No epiphanies here.

And I never said I was cheated or was owed something. Those were your words, maybe you inferred it from my tone. All I did was state my opinion on the current state at jb, an opinion shared by many on our own little mess of a website.

If you and others think there is light at the end of the tunnel, then I am happy for you to be able to see that far ahead in the future. Jb is a very risky place to be right now, IMHO. Take it or leave it. It's not an indictment of you or any other jb pilot that thinks otherwise.

Good day.

Don't let the door hit you in the ass then.....

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Don't let the door hit you in the ass then.....

Now that's what I call the "JetBlue Experience."

 

[elag777]

Now that's what I call the "JetBlue Experience."

Your experience is what you make of it...

 

[da90drivr]

Chef,
If your number is around the 1200 range your pay is no lower than when you were hired and your med is costing you a little more this year.
Did you not do any research prior to accepting the job? None of your friends told you what to expect?
Welcome to the airline industry! Sh*t changes on a daily basis.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

You're right, my bad. It's that simple. I am seeing the light through the holy gospel according to Flightinfo. Don't know what I was thinking. Anyone else wanna help me?

 

[J32driver]

Anyone else wanna help me?

Yeah... I'll take a stab at it. I see you are a "mil" guy. Just curious what your career path was that brought you to JetBlue. Did you go mil-legacy-furlough-Jetblue or just mil-JetBlue? I'm just trying to get a feel for what is forming your perspective.

I agree with alot of the things you say, but... I certainly don't feel things are all that bad. Could the reserve system be a bit better? Of course (long call would be nice), but I don't know of any other place where you can average 14 or 15 days off a month on reserve when you factor in that Crew Services releases you when they can. I also don't know of anyplace where you can move your reserve days at will as long as they have the coverage.

Life is always different for the top 25% of a seniority list. Thats just airline life. I also agree that our compensation package must change to reflect the slowed growth. I have faith that will happen one way or another.

In short... take a deep breath and try to enjoy coming to work. Things will work out in time. We are still EXTREMELY young and it takes a long time to build a GREAT compensation package. Whats the saying, "Rome wasn't built in a day". Just ask a senior Southwest dude.

We have an enjoyable place to work. Everything else in due time.

 

[JBPA]

Anyone else wanna help me?

Like I told you a year or so ago....'taint worth it. These folks, while seemingly noble (more like naive), are the same ones calling everyone 'whiners' over at bp.com. The bottom line is that nothing is going to improve here without considerable effort from US(pilots - not UsAir). It's easy to label 'considerable effort' as whining, especially if you're a 'follower'-type person. Based on some of my research (PCG-sham, scumbag lawfirm on retainer, revenue buffoonery, etc.), it'll likely take real negotiations by real negotiators before our pay and benefits come anywhere close to the now-pillaged, once respectable industry averages. If you believe that our compensation should be tied soley to company profits then please don't ever be a negotiator! Oh wait, I just described every member of the management-appointed PCG. My bad! With our 'cost plus a small profit' pricing plan, I'm not so sure that we're going to see any near-term improvements to our compensation (I'm not expecting any for -320-again, I hope I'm wrong). J32's correct about building an airline and the timing for SWA-esque pay. However, I'm getting tired of subsidizing boneheaded decisions by folks who are largely unqualified for the positions they're in.

I hope I'm wrong about D&D and the laughable PCG. I really do. Either way, meet and greets start up again around January. Contrary to whoover said -320 folks wouldn't leave, I've been in the left seat of the 'Bus for a while and am looking elsewhere.

I am still having fun here. And I too try to go the extra mile whilst at work. That doesn't mean that I blindly trust D&D (or the PCG), think everything is copasetic here (despite my <500#), or will keep my mouth shut about our crappy pay and benefits.

Then again, I've never been one to accept mediocrity. You?

...now I'm off to my underground evil lurker's lair...

 

[accinelli]

As a flight attendant, you sure would have first hand knowledge of that one, huh putz?

The truth is hard to bear -- isn't it. Are you afraid that your company can't compete so they will implement a flowback -- which will have you flying the cherished RJ again?

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Yeah... I'll take a stab at it. I see you are a "mil" guy. Just curious what your career path was that brought you to JetBlue. Did you go mil-legacy-furlough-Jetblue or just mil-JetBlue? I'm just trying to get a feel for what is forming your perspective.

I agree with alot of the things you say, but... I certainly don't feel things are all that bad. Could the reserve system be a bit better? Of course (long call would be nice), but I don't know of any other place where you can average 14 or 15 days off a month on reserve when you factor in that Crew Services releases you when they can. I also don't know of anyplace where you can move your reserve days at will as long as they have the coverage.

Life is always different for the top 25% of a seniority list. Thats just airline life. I also agree that our compensation package must change to reflect the slowed growth. I have faith that will happen one way or another.

In short... take a deep breath and try to enjoy coming to work. Things will work out in time. We are still EXTREMELY young and it takes a long time to build a GREAT compensation package. Whats the saying, "Rome wasn't built in a day". Just ask a senior Southwest dude.

We have an enjoyable place to work. Everything else in due time.

Thanks, all better.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Like I told you a year or so ago....'taint worth it. These folks, while seemingly noble (more like naive), are the same ones calling everyone 'whiners' over at bp.com. The bottom line is that nothing is going to improve here without considerable effort from US(pilots - not UsAir). It's easy to label 'considerable effort' as whining, especially if you're a 'follower'-type person. Based on some of my research (PCG-sham, scumbag lawfirm on retainer, revenue buffoonery, etc.), it'll likely take real negotiations by real negotiators before our pay and benefits come anywhere close to the now-pillaged, once respectable industry averages. If you believe that our compensation should be tied soley to company profits then please don't ever be a negotiator! Oh wait, I just described every member of the management-appointed PCG. My bad! With our 'cost plus a small profit' pricing plan, I'm not so sure that we're going to see any near-term improvements to our compensation (I'm not expecting any for -320-again, I hope I'm wrong). J32's correct about building an airline and the timing for SWA-esque pay. However, I'm getting tired of subsidizing boneheaded decisions by folks who are largely unqualified for the positions they're in.

I hope I'm wrong about D&D and the laughable PCG. I really do. Either way, meet and greets start up again around January. Contrary to whoover said -320 folks wouldn't leave, I've been in the left seat of the 'Bus for a while and am looking elsewhere.

I am still having fun here. And I too try to go the extra mile whilst at work. That doesn't mean that I blindly trust D&D (or the PCG), think everything is copasetic here (despite my <500#), or will keep my mouth shut about our crappy pay and benefits.

Then again, I've never been one to accept mediocrity. You?

...now I'm off to my underground evil lurker's lair...

Yeah, I am with you now, but it took me a while to feel this way. What really deflated me was the RTP site and the whole idea of charging customers according to what the market costs and not according to what it will bear. That tells me that all the extra stuff (save for OET) I do at work really has no bearing on whether we make money or not. Yeah, the extra effort that every jb pilot puts out every flight might help with a little brand loyalty, but it sure as he11 ain't gonna add to the bottom line. Management will always find a way to be just "barely profitable" whether it is growth costs or taxes for executive stock options. And don't get me wrong, I believe in the product and the high level of customer service we provide, but none of us at jb, from pilots to rampers are fairly compensated for what we do to keep this airline afloat every single day. I think Neeleman needs to go, I think both Inflight and the Pilot group need to organize (if just to improve scheduling issues, reserve, work rules etc) and I think we need to have some pride and charge more for our product.

In the absence of those changes (not to mention increasing health care costs, decreasing benefits and a lagging payscale) it makes staying at jb for some magical payoff very hard to stomach (and don't even get me started on upgrade times at current fo pay scales). We may be destined for years of mediocrity at jb, or maybe we won't. But there need to be some serious changes in the next year or we will hit some really rough times.

And as for a previous post, I enjoy work for what it is. Some of y'all gotta let it go. There is no magic at jb. It's an airline plain and simple, not a "brand" or "culture" like some would like to believe. And yes, sometimes it may be more fun than some other places. But that doesn't mean that some of our peers wouldn't work at a place that is less "magical" for 20 more bucks an hour, no cabins to clean and a respectable benefit package. Stronger legacies and more recalls spell some serious trouble for jb (IMHO) in the not-so-distant future if the bar isn't raised. And that makes it a very unpleasant place to work for those of us that choose or want to stay.

That's my take.

 

[slyf15e]

Correction on the A-320 upgrade time
6.6 X 178 A-320 = 1175 A-320 Captains
7.2 X 178 A-320 = 1281 A -320 Captains
You pick the crew ratio!
If you are lower than 1300, you will NEVER upgrade on the A-320. The 1300 seniority level is going lower and lower depending on how many airplanes we sell to RTP. Established carriers have retirements, we do not.
Just simple math! I feel for you guys at the lower end of the seniority list. Something has to be done about FO compensation. We cannot afford to lose a bunch of pilots to other carriers.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

It's cheaper at JB, now, to hire and train a new pilot than retain one. Soooo, until we reach some kind of exodus threshold, I think you'll see management accept the numbers we have now leaving. My feeling is, once the threshold is met to where many folks are leaving to a point where training is not keeping up (not likely), then they will be serious about addressing some of these pay/benefit issues. Soooo, if you guys on the fence don't mind, please start leaving to allow those us staying a higher possibility of upgrading and maybe getting better pay/benefits. Thank you.

 

[SoCentralRain]

I think both Inflight and the Pilot group need to organize (if just to improve scheduling issues, reserve, work rules etc)

Hey Bavarian Chef:

A question for you: Is this your first airline? (Someone asked you a few posts ago. You didn't answer.) If so, ask any one of your former union member co-workers about how well a union treated them at their last carrier. It's just not so simple as *hocus pocus* we've got a union, then *poof* everything associated with scheduling, reserve and work rules are all better. It's a negotiated give and take. But there is some "take."

UA had one hell of a contract prior to 9/11. Afterwards, "Here's your furlough notice. No hard feelings." Live by the sword--die by the sword.

Cheers,

SCR

 

[slyf15e]

The Chef has issues and you all want to send him away! The fact of the matter is JB is currently a have and have not airline. The A-320 Captains have, all else have not. Take a look at 12 year pay scales below. The JB rates are based on a Effective rate working 85 hours. However the Captain to FO percentage would not change at base pay.

Company Captain FO FO/Capt %

American 161 109 67%
Contin 144 98 68%
delta 149 102 68%
Northwest 159 108 67%
United 131 90 68%
US Air 138 91 65%
SWA 191 131 66%
Jetblue 150 89 59%

JB FO's are the least paid and make the least percentage of the captains they fly with. This is compounded with profit sharing (if and when we get any) and CSPP.