RJ's and the WO's

[WSurf]

Heard from a source of the US Airways MEC Mainline, that the WO's PSA,PDT,ALG are gonna get a total of 150 CRJ's. Piedmont already has a CRJ AQP training program and the head of our training department was invite to sit in on the RJ's talks. But the kicker is that they will be configured to 44 seats with a small business class in the A/C. The 44 seats scopes the mainline guys and the jets for jobs, mainline furlough would operate the 50 seats or more. So it looks like a bunch of jets are on the way...heheheh I will believe it when I see it.

 

[d328pilot]

This is some info our union got from Dave's roadshow in PIT last week. If you want more specific info, listen to the PSA hotline.
90 seat rjs go to mainline
70 seat rjs go to mid atlantic
50 and below will go to the wholly owned as long as financing can be found. Jets will only go to contract carriers if financing cannot be found. And as always, only to the participating J4J carriers. Unions have until 3 sep to ratify concessions. After that, the future is up to the judge.

 

[chperplt]

Jets will only go to contract carriers if financing cannot be found.

Do you think there will be enough financing made available to get all the jets needed? I can't see that happening at this stage of the game.

The contract carrier I work for has been approached on numerous occasions by mainline concerning jets. We're not union, so we don't get a say. Management will jump at it if they get the go ahead. Rumor is that ALPA was at HQ last week discussing union/non union pilot integration.

I hope to see those jets at the WOs soon!

 

[d328pilot]

From what I understood, when the company filed Ch 11, it made almost 2 billion free that would have been used to pay debts. And I am not sure how much Texas Pacific is going to put in. I herd about 500 million. But I dont think that will be used for rjs. It sounds like there are a lot of people there willing to invest money in U right now...So i do think there will be plenty of money. Rumor is that PSA will begin proving runs in October. 4 jets a month...Like i said it is rumor but there are "strong indications" that will happen...MEC is bound by a confidentality agreement so like i said, it is "rumor"

 

[dondk]

PDT and AQP????

I may be wrong here but to get AQP don't you need the specific equipment and be able to PROVE your AQP program works? (at least once or twice???)

The requirments to obtain AQP are not as easy as let's sit down and write a program based on what you "think" you may be doing or getting.

I do know PDT has a AQP program for the DHC-8 and it has been around for years. They are really proud of there AQP program (and should be) .

Again, I could be wrong...

 

[sleepy]

Re: PDT and AQP????

I may be wrong here but to get AQP don't you need the specific equipment and be able to PROVE your AQP program works? (at least once or twice???)

The requirments to obtain AQP are not as easy as let's sit down and write a program based on what you "think" you may be doing or getting.

I do know PDT has a AQP program for the DHC-8 and it has been around for years. They are really proud of there AQP program (and should be) .

Again, I could be wrong...

Yes, before you get an AQP program you must first have a Single Visit Training Program. This program requires you to compile a lot of performance data on the flight crews in training. The AQP program comes after the SVT program is successful.

 

[Flywspeed]

PSA & RJs

Good information guys! But I heard that the WO the signed up for the Jet for Jobs was PSA. MidAtlantic are getting most of the RJs and PSA should get the rest. PDT and ALG has not signed up for the J4J yet.

Thats just what I heard, i may be totally wrong.

 

[d328pilot]

that is the info we are getting too. Although PDT is very close to finishing everything i believe.

 

[Beantown]

"Rumor is that PSA will begin proving runs in October. 4 jets a month...Like i said it is rumor but there are "strong indications" that will happen...MEC is bound by a confidentality agreement so like i said, it is "rumor""
------------------------------------------

I thought that no one at U (wo's and Mid Atlantic) were going to get RJ's until U got out of BK and that is not until the begining of 03. How is PSA going to pay for these 4 rjs a month? -Cape

 

[d328pilot]

See the above post. The money that was being used to pay current aircraft leases is now free due to Ch 11. I guess the court is ok with this as part of the "overall" plan. I saw the Reuters article that said no jets until after Ch. 11 is over. Aparently that is not true....i guess this is the first time the press has been wrong. Surprise surprise. Plus there are a number of outside investors that are willing to dump money into U...Texas Pacific being one of them. They did a good job with Continental and America West.

 

[Beantown]

328, I assume that you work for PSA. Any chance you will post the highlights (or low lights) of your new contract? Pay, workrules ect. thanks
-Cape

 

[flyinhard]

Well, I get mixed info here. I am waiting for a class date at PDT and I keep hearing that its over, or you could be out here next month. I have some friends furloughed there and waiting to come back. The question is, am I screwed or does anyone think that this will work out. This j4j sounds like a real $hitty deal for the WO's but great for the mainline boys and girls. The PSA info line sounds like all of the WO's are back to square zero with the way he is talking (Seagull). I am getting a little scared about it, been a roller coaster for the last 6 months. Obdviously the first concern is getting those fuloughs back, and then HOPEFULLY me. Any thoughts would be appreciated, thanks

 

[d328pilot]

beantown:
What specific stuff do you want to know? There isnt anything really outstanding in the new contract. Concessions were ratified a few weeks ago. .75% pay cut for captains, none for FOs. perdiem went back to 1.30 i think. and insurance went up...a few other things...in return we got southwest's commuting policy, unlimited jumpseats, and passes for furloughee's (instead of just 3 months) if that happens, and i think some other stuff...

flyinhard:
how does the hotline sound bad? it could have been "we will give all of the jets to the contract carriers and you will all be out of a job." J4J does suck, but what is the alternative. Be out of a job? if i have to guess, no one will be on the street here. Mainline people will have one chance to get the seats. If we go down the mainline list and dont fill half of the jet seats then J4J is over. They cant come back a year later and say, well we want those seats now. A lot of people are going to go to Mid Atlantic. I dont think any of those mainline guys will enjoy sitting reserve here with our work rules. I cant wait to see the look on their face when scheduling says "pack for 6 days, we got a trip for ya". Alot of people are unhappy about the flow through too. Everyone tells me "look at eagle and co ex, no one has ever flowed up". True, but the U flow means that U will never hire again. That is a huge difference from the other 2 companies. True some senior guys wont be able to or want to flow up. But for the younger guys, it is a good deal. Am i just crazy or am i missing something?

 

[flyinhard]

I may have misinterpreted what seagull said than. Thanks for the info, the wait still continues. Have to count my blessings that I am still flying now I guess. With the industry the way it is, you take what you can. Thanks again!

 

[chperplt]

Everyone tells me "look at eagle and co ex, no one has ever flowed up". True, but the U flow means that U will never hire again. That is a huge difference from the other 2 companies.

D328Pilot

I've heard bits and pieces of the agreement. Would you mind elaborating on what the agreement actually says in regard to the flow..

Thanks

 

[The Penguin]

The way the flow through works is: 1. any WO that signs J4J will be put on a "combined" DOH seniority list for participating WO's. If PSA is the only participating WO, then that's it. Contract carriers cannot flow through even if they sign J4J. 2. After all the furloughed mainline guys have gone to or passed up the offer to go to MidAtlantic (MDA), then WO pilots can flow to MDA. When you flow to MDA you keep your date of hire from the WO for pay and benefits at MDA. 3. After all furloughed mainline pilots have gone back to mainline or said they want to stay at MDA, then WO pilots can flow up to mainline, but start over at first year pay and benefits. Mainline pilots can pass up seats at the WO's to go straight to MDA. WO pilots don't have to go to MDA, they can stay at the WO and then go straight to mainline when all mainline pilots in front of them have either passed up going back to mainline or have flowed up. Got it?

 

[d328pilot]

I dont have a copy of the agreement but this is what i can remember. Pilots from the wholly owneds will be able to flow to Mid Atlantic who in turn can flow to mainline. The big difference between this and the eagle/co ex flow throughs is that it is a 100% flow through. Meaning that if you want to work for mainline, you have to start at a wholly owned. I guess in a way, this combines seniority lists with us stapled at the bottom. If we get jets, it is a good deal for everyone. The senior guys who will retire here, will be able to make decent money, and the younger guys will be able to flow to mainline. In my case, all i have to do is wait for a whole lot of guys to hit 60. oh and have the company survive....i guess that is kinda important too.


The penguin explained it better

 

[Beantown]

".75% pay cut for captains, none for FOs. perdiem went back to 1.30 "
----------------------------------------------

328, 75% pay cut? Am I reading that wrong? What are the 1st and 5th year FO and Cpt rates for the prop and the jet? Is there just one jet rate? I heard that Woerth signed the TA last week, True? What about PDT and ALG, What do there TA's look like in terms of 1st and 5th year jet rates? thanks again for any info.
-Bean

 

[d328pilot]

Beantown.... 0.75% pay cut for captains. Yes our TA was signed some time ago.
30-36 seat. 1 yr FO 20.00
5 yr FO 27.75
1 yr CP 39.00
5 yr CP 45.00
50-59 seat 1 yr FO 20.00
5 yr FO 33.05
1 yr CP 48.00
5 yr CP 60.29
Jets top out at 94.54 at 16 years. Concessions do not affect the jet rates. there are no rates for any jets under 50 seats. ie, 50 is the smallest we will get.
From my understanding, PDT is getting close to finishing everything. I hear ALG is not in a good position at all. Sept. 3 is the deadline now. If it is not done by then, the court will decide. If i had to guess.....jets will go to PSA and PDT. just my guess.

 

[328dude]

Flyinghand, I tried very hard to make it clear to everyone what seagal ment when I recorded the hotline message on the 20th. Although there were alot of topics that I was not able to release on it, the guys already posting here are pretty much dead on with whats in store for the wholly owned.

Someone mentioned that U would not recieve RJ's till March of 2003 (projected emergence from Chap 11). That's true, but for Mid Atlantic. Things are going more slowely then projected, buth they are making progress. As far as when PSA see's jets, cant say......(confidential)

Mike
PSA Comm

 

[canadflyau]

From what I understand, ALG signed the TA that U wanted on the 11th hour before they filed for BK. But on Aug 24th after the lawyers went over it with a fine toothed comb, they (UGroup) rejected the TA they asked ALG pilots for. I heard the problem was the succesorship language. ALG succesorship language said if they were bought, sold, merged with anyone other than PDT, PSA, MDA, or U then the original contract would be intact in full. Any thoughts on this wierd turn of events....

Also, any court that would allow U to start purchasing SJ's before paying creditors would be a farse and would be going against standard practice at this point in the game. I think the Reuters article sited is the most accurate account, don't expect to see SJ's until the final stages of BK. my .02

 

[Beavis]

PDT's negotiated RJ rates as follows...

Under 50 seats -- PSA rates minus 3%. This is because we have a defined benefit/retirement program that PSA does not have, and wanted to keep that.

50 seat--

FO 1 - $20.00
5 - $31.37

CA 1 - $48.00
5 - $56.81

Mainline is also hosing PDT, reneging our TA agreement, which does agree to jets for jerks. Who knows now??? we were waiting for the vote, and now this breaks! We can only imagine why they would be adamant about us giving up our successorship clause. We already gave up our furlough protection. It looks like a sale to Mesa may be eminent.

 

[Sam Adams]

Rj s & Flow Though

By the time the W/O s get jets I'll be 50(Only in late 20s now) by the time I would flow though to mainline. I'll be 365 years old and dead six times over.

 

[d328pilot]

Well Sam, you might be right. But lets think about it for a second. We will be getting jets. It is only a matter of time. Believe me or dont believe me....your choice. If you look at it objectively, it makes sense. About the flow through. Every new hire will now have to come from a W.O. Lets look at the average mainline pilot. The guys about to be furloughed were hired as late as 1988. Assume that they were 30 at the time they were hired. That would leave them with only about 16 years left before retirement. Over the next 10 years there are going to be a lot of mainline retirements. They will have to find pilots to fly the airplanes and they have to come from the WOs. I think mainline shrinking is only going to be temporary. After the rjs come, mainline will expand again. It will take many years to happen but I think it will happen. I think it is hard for a lot of us to forget the oppressive former CEO (wolf). We have a new guy in charge and I have been impressed with what he has done so far. Read Bethune's (sp?) book about how he reorganized and saved Continental. It will look very familiar to what is happening at U now.

 

[dondk]

I think the WO's getting jets is a good thing, hopefully it will be sooner than later.

As a former WO guy the numbers here sound disturbing (amongst other things (pay)).

Anyway, U will have about 1300 on the street in a few months, the 3 WO's have combined about 1300 pilots.. That is 2600 pilots (being generous) that want to get to mainline.

Now U has eliminated about 100 jets recently. Even in a good situation of 4 SJ's a month (assuming 1 jet per month to each of the 4 WO's) it will take 2 years to get back those 100 jets, and how much longer before the lowest guy in the senority could even look at a flowthrough to mainline.

That is not even touching the fact that the staffing on the SJ's are less than the staffing on the 737, 757, DC-9, F-100, 767 that U got rid of.

I agree for the younger guys it looks great for a career at U, but at a price of years to flow through.

 

[dav8or]

50 and below will go to the wholly owned as long as financing can be found. Jets will only go to contract carriers if financing cannot be found. And as always, only to the participating J4J carriers.

CHQ did not sign the J4J but the main reason we won't get anymore U jets is that WE can't get the financing for them. With U in backruptcy no one wants to lend money until things look better. Our last 140 for AA was held up for a week because of the news there.

 

[d328pilot]

Incorrect. There are numerous investors willing to lend U money. Texas Pacific being one of them. In return they will get 3 or 4 seats on the board. I cant remember exactly how many. When Texas Pacific saved continental some years ago, They reported a 10 fold increase on their investment. They will probably get the same with U. I have herd many news reports that say the future for U is good. In fact, I have yet to hear one report where the expert said he thought U would not survive. (Hopefully economic experts are better than their aviation experts) They have a solid recovery plan and if I knew that I would get a huge return on my investment, I would give them some too. Oh, and if i had millions of dollars laying around.

On another note: The upgrade class at PSA scheduled for this month was to have 4 in it. It has been expanded to 6 and the Oct class will have 8 upgrades in it. good sign

 

[hellas]

The main reason we are not getting jets for U is only because we did not sign up for J4J and if you believe that CHQ has trouble financing then I know at least 1 CHQ employee who will sign any contract that is put before them..... Dont beleive BB's hype. J4J is a dangerous and contemptious that does nothing but crap all over seniority numbers, it was our first stand to Chq mgmnt that we deserve and demand the quality of life and pay to airline scale.
dav8or, I just dont want the regional community to think that we are having financing trouble when we are getting 22 for Delta with an option for 30 more, in the next 13 months. Managements posturing doesnt mean I have to start looking for my ankles..

 

[CHQPilot]

CHQ is having problems getting financing because of the industry. Will it stop us from getting more jets? Probably not. It is hard to get the money now on the terms we want, so we have to negotiate. We're still taking jets, but I do believe management is doing more dealing than in the past. Sure, BB is full of hype but it has been that way for a long time.

U may be able to have a cash infusion from Texas Pacific, but they're giving up seats on the board and along with that, some control of the money. It is almost a given the money will go to RJs and the reorganization. When U filed Ch.11, all the WOs were included in the filing, so I'm sure the court will have some say how things pan out. How it falls into place, only time will tell.

 

[dav8or]

The main reason we are not getting jets for U is only because we did not sign up for J4J and if you believe that CHQ has trouble financing then I know at least 1 CHQ employee who will sign any contract that is put before them..... Dont beleive BB's hype. J4J is a dangerous and contemptious that does nothing but crap all over seniority numbers, it was our first stand to Chq mgmnt that we deserve and demand the quality of life and pay to airline scale.
dav8or, I just dont want the regional community to think that we are having financing trouble when we are getting 22 for Delta with an option for 30 more, in the next 13 months. Managements posturing doesnt mean I have to start looking for my ankles..

I didn't sign the last TA or J4J's deal and I don't trust BB any further than I can spit. I know all to well that BB is here for BB. Financing has gotten harder, Bedford will find the money if it is in his best intrest. Can you tell the kool aid has worn off.