RJDC on new DAL scope deal

[NYRANGERS]

Re: I hope they do sell us

Then the gloves would really be off, and we would take all of your flying.

How would it be any different from now? Unless you plan on competing with Delta.

 

[601Pilot]

Re: I hope they do sell us

Then the gloves would really be off, and we would take all of your flying.

What? You must be kidding?? If they did sell us (ASA), they
would definitely cancel our contract for Delta flying and we
would lose all of our future options for CRJs since we would
no longer be part of DCI. I don't think we have the capital to
start our own marketing and ticketing campaign to sell ASA
tickets. Most people that fly on us don't even know who ASA
is, they just think we are Delta.

Just my $.02!

601Pilot

PS Someone please tell my "smiley" to stop drinking all my
da$mn beer!

 

[Freight Dog]

Re: Re: Lawyers fund

The issue is not scope. It is representation. The reason why we do not use the grievance process is because ALPA, illegally, refuses to allow the grievances to go forward. Duane Woerth has directed our grievances to the Bilateral Scope Impact Committee, which can not do anything. The RJDC did address the BSIC before the law suit and again, ALPA refused to do anything to address our concerns. (The RJDC will be glad to send you copies of the letters denying our rights to the grievance process)

Your flying is done under DL code, correct? That is Delta code. I believe that COMBINED, Comair and ASA groups are outnumbered by Delta ALPA. Where is the problem? Even if you had "representation" and your MEC was present at DALPA negotiations, AND the vote went to THE ENTIRE Comair and ASA memberships <which I don't think it should have anyway>, you STILL would have lost due to sheer numbers. Secondly, Delta has 1000+ pilots furloughed. Comair and ASA are STILL hiring in mass numbers. What's the bellyaching about?!



The issue is not "regional lifers." I'm in my early 30's with a Master's and turbine PIC time, not a "lifer" by the typical definition. However, any idiot with a sense of history can see that allowing management to run alter ego airline operations destroys collective bargaining rights. Read ALPA's own publications, Flying the Line I & II and tell me that the RJDC and ALPA's founders are not like minded.

What I gather from this is that you are upset over the lack of scope at your airline. How many carriers fly under DL code aside from CMR and ASA? Personally, I think ASA and Comair should own ALL of DCI flying and dump the contract carriers. However, that's the lack of scope on your end. Everyone puts priorities elsewhere, but if it is THAT important to you, perhaps it's worth striking over.



Repeatedly the RJDC's prognostications have been verified by no less than the Delta MEC when the truth could no longer be hidden. It is not "disinformation" because the news arrives six months before ALPA reluctantly confirms the truth.

ALPA was again given the opportunity to fix the problem and again went down the path of illegally denying Regional pilots the right to negotiate their pay and working conditions with their employer.

If your reference is Delta.... Numbers my friend. Numbers. You lose.


I'm an outsider, but man, you go to ALPA's message boards and all you see is RJDC being hashed and rehashed. Come here, and watch the same thing. It is a rather interesting reading, however, having read all sorts of posts, my conclusion is that RJDC is NOTHING but an attempt to steal seniority numbers at Delta by a SMALL group of CMR/ASA pilots. This whole B.S. about "fair representation" is nothing but coffee-house crap.

 

[VFR on Top]

Somebody riddle me this: with so many of their bretheren on furlough, why isn't DALPA pushing for the CRJ-700s and -900s to be flown by mainline instead of DCI? More planes require more crews.

 

[NYRANGERS]

Somebody riddle me this: with so many of their bretheren on furlough, why isn't DALPA pushing for the CRJ-700s and -900s to be flown by mainline instead of DCI? More planes require more crews.

It seems with all the BS and malice going on between Delta and the Connection carriers, that this is what we are heading for.

 

[goldentrout]

VFR on Top

Very insightful for a guy with 100 hours flying a Cessna 172.

RJs, big and small, is and will revolutionize the industry over the next 5 to 10 years.

All the machinations that ALPA does to try and "preserve the profession" fly in the face of market realities.

US Air...bankrupt...UAL...going bankrupt...DAL/NWA...losing billions a year.

Comair/ASA/ACA...profitable and hiring

Jet Blue/SWA/AirTran...making money and hiring

It continually amazes me how people on this message board cannot see this blatantly obvious, undeniable shift in the airline market.

If 727/757/737/767/L10-11s, etc. made money, everyone would be flying them!

Instead, they are buying RJs, B717s, delaying/cancelling orders for those above mentioned, and parking/selling many of the same.

The airline industry will never be the same! All this talk about "preserving" these high paying jobs denys the fact that the airlines can no longer afford to pay this exorbitant overhead and compete with AirTran/Frontier/JetBlue/SWA.

AirTran will get you from ATL to Orlando just as quickly and safely as DAL, for less, and at less overhead cost to the company.

I have a friend who wants to go from DEN to Florida over Christmas. One would think UAL would be the obvious choice...wrong! Jet Blue will do it for 20% less than UAL, and it's a direct flight...and he bought a Jet Blue ticket.

I can go to SWA's website today and buy a totally refundable, totally changeable ticket to any SWA destination for $299...some places less than that...with one day's notice. Try that same deal on the UAL/DAL/NWA/US Air website. Impossible!

RJs...50...70...90...and maybe even over 100 seats (is it still an RJ) are coming. ALPA would do better to get these planes at mainline and get their guys off furlough.

TBKANE...what would you rather do?

1. Get back to flying a 50 or 70 or 90 seat RJ now at DAL mainline, pay some bills, which still gives you the potential for "big bucks" later.

2. Sit on furlough for 2...3...5 years to "preserve the profession" for ALPA.

I feel for all you guys on furlough, as I was furloughed myself after 9/11...it sucks, plain and simple.

As for "robbing jobs." DAL management has the responsibility for decideing which DAL owned plane will fly a specific route for maximum profitability.

If that means that DAL makes more money flying 2 70 seat RJs a day from CVG to Bangor rather than 1 737, that's what's best for the company...that's what makes the most money...that's what best for the shareholders...and that's what best for all of our job security...to have a strong, profitable company.

If the DALPA MEC was a little more visionary than "scope," TBKANE might be sitting in the left or right seat of that 70 seat RJ flying to Bangor tonight. Instead, DAL has 1000 guys on the street to "preserve the profession," instead of having them in the left and right seat of that 70 RJ where they would be flying, paying their bills, and watching their seniority list grow and instead of shrink every month.

TBKane and all you mainline guys...you are all well educated, smart, intelligent, achieving people.

Why do you still cling to the ALPA strategy that has helped (I said helped now, not TOTALLY responsible for) put 2 major airlines into bankruptcy, and put thousands of you on the street, with no prospect for recall anytime in the forseeable future?

I just don't get it?????????????????

It really is this simple.

1. Every DAL flight is flown by DAL pilot.

2. All pilots flying a DAL aircraft are on one list by date of hire.

3. Everyone goes up/down/out the bottom by date of hire (which means the 600 hundred or so guys hired by ASA/Comair since 9/11 and the 600 or so more to be hired next year wouldn't be hired...all the DAL furloughees would have jobs).

4. We get paid a benefit package that allows the company to weather bad times...and we get profit sharing in the good times (gee sounds like SWA...the ones hiring and making money).

Folks, it really is just this simple, isn't it?

 

[NYRANGERS]

goldentrout

Again we find someone who thinks taking pay concessions is the only way to fix an airline. You my friend are a 'simple person".

 

[FlyingSig]

It really is this simple.

.....

2. All pilots flying a DAL aircraft are on one list by date of hire.

Not really that simple. I made the choice to leave my left seat gig to start over at DAL. This happens and folks who chose not to take the gamble (yup, I'm furloughed, they're not...it's a gamble) suddenly jump me in senority and take my $105/hr seat and I get a new $32/hr seat.

Really, I've said it before on the board, I'd love to see a staple happen (it won't, not because of DALPA, but because Leo and Fred won't have their portfolio anymore) but if you didn't have the courage to leave before, what gives you the right to demand senority (and if your at CMR, esp, now that your MEC is giving me the finger by saying sorry, we don't care about you and your family being out of work, we just want to make a political statement because we can)

It's one or the other. You can either be your own company, or not. Too many statements on this board only make us the same when you guys want something, but seperate companies when it - heaven forbid - benifits a mainline pilot.

I'd say the Comair MEC made the decision for it's pilots this week.

 

[MetroSheriff]

but if you didn't have the courage to leave before, what gives you the right to demand senority (and if your at CMR, esp, now that your MEC is giving me the finger by saying sorry, we don't care about you and your family being out of work, we just want to make a political statement because we can)

Geez Sig,

Don't you get it? Because it would be the right thing to do in the name of union brotherhood. I know that is the truth. I read it on the RJDC website.

TIC

 

[Tim47SIP]

Huhh?

I am thinking that Goldentrout did not mean a total DOH between DCI and DALPA. If he did, he is delerious. At least at ASA, that is not the thinking (at least for the most part). Staple is really the only option and understood by the majority. For the furloughees, I fully support DOH integration, but no bumping. I truely hope this stuff gets fixed as the industy is changing and recalls will not be for some time. I still do not understand how someone can say that they will stay furloughed for several years (to save the profession) than accept reduced compensation (as a whole) to keep all of the pilots on the property. 5 years of 100K (just an example) versus 5 years of 40K to come back to 100K makes no sense when you can have 5 years of 80K the whole time.
Someone plese enlighten me! Thanks!

 

[goldentrout]

All right guys...

My statements were a vision of how it should be. There would obviously be short term issues whne seniority lists integrate. But in the long run, if we had a system where all DAL pilots came in at the botton and flew an RJ, all the stuff going on with scope, RJDC, etc., would be a mute point.

First off let me say I am not an RJDC plaintiff, but I agree iwth their main point htat there is a conflict of interest at ALPA.

TIM47 SIP

We're not interested in a staple...that's just a flow back system. However, pilot lists have been intgretated before with fences, etc. Sure, the initial stages of integration would be sticky. But starting tomorrow, everyone who gets hired at DAL ought to start out on one list, at the bottom, in an RJ and work his/her way up from there. For the future, that would put an end to all this scope/RJDC stuff.

Sir, maybe you missed it, but many pilot groups are being forced to accept reduced compensation, just to keep their companies afloat, i.e. US Air, UAL, etc.

Also, the market will cause it's own reduced compensation. Airlines that cannot compete because of bloated overhead will not be around very long.

Metro Sheriff

What I say has nothing to do with the RJDC. It is economic reality.

1. The Wall Street Journal agrees with me.
2. About every aviation industry analyst agrees with me that the major airline business model is broken and not sustainable.
3. UAL and US Air are in/near bankruptcy...no banks would loan them any money, so they had to go to the government. The government told them to bring down their overhead, or no money. The only place they can really save a bunch of money is with labor. Everything else is a fixed cost.
4. You won't see a new Boeing or new Airbus at a major airline for along time...meanwhile, Bombardier and Embraer (sic) can't make their product fast enough.
5. SWA/AirTran are making a profit. ACA's stock shot through the roof last week. ASA/Comair, by themselves, are very profitable, and are basically plugging the breach in the DAL dam.

FlyingSIG

I don't want your job. It distresses me greatly that you and your family are suffering the effects of a furlough. If DAL could make money flying a bunch more 737/757/767 etc., great! The better DAL does, the better things will be for me at Comair in the long run.

If DAL could buy 100 737s today, stop all their RJ orders, and make money...I wouldn't be totally thrilled, but I'd realize that more maniline flying eventually means more feed needed for mainline. That means more RJs at Comair, and more potential jobs at DAL.

Problems is DAL can't make a profit with 100 new 737s, but they can with 100 new RJs!

Yea, if your were on one list DOH, you'd be flying an RJ. But you'd have 1000 or so guys underneath you. You'd still be flying. You'd be holding a line. You'd only be working 15 days or so a month. You'd still have money going into your B-fund. You'd have dental/medical care. And you'd still be in line for the bigger equipment someday.

NY Rangers

Sir, you didn't read my post. I said "Why do you still cling to the ALPA strategy that has helped (I said helped now, not TOTALLY responsible for) put 2 major airlines into bankruptcy, and put thousands of you on the street, with no prospect for recall anytime in the forseeable future?"

Pilot/FA/mechanic compensation all needs to come down. Here are some other money saving ideas.

1. Buy a bunch of 70/90 seat RJs that can be filled up to a 60-70% load factor, and make money for the company, instead of "wishing" that the traffic would return for the 737/757/767.

2. Make compensation tied to company performance. Benefits should be such that the company can make it through a few years of bad times, without breaking the bank. Then, profit sharing happens in the good times. If you look at the SWA compensation model, those guys, with their 1999 profit share, made just as much as a DAL 737 captain with the same seniority.

3. Change some ridiculous work rules. There are guys at UAL I know who get paid 20-25K a month to sit at home. The current work rules say if you bid vacation, and it touches a trip, the trip is dropped, no loss of pay. So they bid days of vacation next to their trips, and then the whole month is dropped! How can we ask a company to pay us that kind of cash to sit at home and do nothing?

Sir you say I'm simple minded. I say I'm focused...meaning I've put aside all the irelevant issues about scope/RJDC etc, and am focusing on the reality of today's and the future airline industry business model that will work...the Wall Street Journal...the government loan board...and most aviation analysts just happen to agree with me.

None of you have refuted any of my points about market forces, independent analysts opinions, etc. All you do is talk about the way things "ought to be," what seems "fair," that I'm "simple minded."

Simple minded is trying to wish one's desires for reality into being, instead of analyzing reality and coming up with a viable plan from there.

You know guys, this is not about me and my job at Comair. I'm trying to find a way to get flyingsig a job on a DAL seniority list! But doing so requires dealing with reality...not wishing things could be different. I can only find solutions with facts...wishes will not put flyingsig in a cockpit, and money in his bank account.

This is about finding a way to stabilize the industry so we can all have a job, with decent (not excessive) compensation, at a company that consistenly makes a profit.

As I said above, if DAL could make a profit with 100 new 737s, and that meant less RJs in the short term...more power to them...and more power to all the DAL pilots on and off furlough if they can make this happen...they can't...so we need a plan B...that's what I'm trying to do.

While we sit around and debate this issue,
...AirTran/SWA/JetBlue/Frontier are making money and licking their chops at the prospect of picking up more market share as the majors lose billions, fire thousands...more...employees and cut flying.

Time and actual events will tell who is right in this debate. I would say time since 9/11, and recent/current/projected events, are currently on my side.

Every month more major airline employees are being fired. Every month more RJs are showing up on our properties. Every quarter the major airlines are losing millions. The loan board just rejected UAL's request because it was not based on sound economics. The major airlines are deferring their big plane orders and buying RJs as fast as they can be made. ASA/Comair/ACA/SWA etc. are hiring pilots and other employees for actual and projected growth.

Please show me the events/facts that support your vision of a different view than mine of the current and future airline industry.