Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

RJDC on new DAL scope deal

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web

~~~^~~~

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 21, 2001
Posts
6,137
Reprint from RJDC's Web Site
______________________________

Scope Bulletin

December 2, 2002


ALPA Boasts that it Re-Imposed Limits on Delta Connection

On Friday, November 18, 2002, the Delta pilot leadership announced to its pilots that it had reached a new scope agreement with Delta management. In exchange for its approval of the domestic alliance with Northwest and Continental Airlines, the Delta pilot leadership proudly claimed that it had successfully re-imposed limits upon Delta Connection. The relevant portions of the "new" scope are as follows:

57 CRJ-700's, despite pre-existing options for 165 more.
All Delta Connection flying limited to approximately 45% of total system flying in 2004, with changes linked to corporate financial performance.
Penalty provisions that could force a reduction in Delta Connection flying if ratios are exceeded.
Stage-length, hub, and route restrictions.
Agreement null & void if government blocks approval of DAL-NWA-CAL domestic alliance.
Note: To put the new ratio numbers in context, if only the minimum mainline block-hours are achieved, DCI is "permitted" an additional 90 to 130 aircraft. However, ASA and Comair alone have orders and options totaling 458 aircraft.

Notwithstanding ALPA’s two-year high profile effort to "study" the scope problem, the new agreement should put to rest any hope that the union’s leadership is prepared to voluntarily purge itself of the inherent conflict of interest created by its support, coordination, and funding of mainline predatory bargaining. If left to its own devices, ALPA will apparently continue to ignore its lawful duties to its "Express" members and permit the mainline interests to engage in predatory bargaining and to use their ill-gotten scope restrictions as bargaining capital to secure other contractual objectives.

Is the Agreement only a StopGap Measure?

In a letter to its members, the Delta pilot leadership wrote that the re-establishment of the restrictions would benefit future negotiations. Such statements would seem to imply that the Delta pilot leadership feels that this is only the first of several rounds of mainline bargaining that may take place as the upheaval in the airline industry continues. A close examination of what the new agreement doesn’t address would appear to support the notion that the Delta pilot leadership will soon find themselves back at the bargaining table.

The Scope’s Fundamental Flaws
Artificial restrictions upon the RJ will not preserve mainline jobs nor promote mainline growth. The tragic events of 9/11 merely accentuated the fundamental flaws in the old scope and accelerated the inevitable. Since the mechanics of the "new" scope are virtually identical to the "old," there is no reason to believe that it will fare any better than its predecessor.

The 57 CRJ-700 Limit
With 165 CRJ-700 options still on the books, it is only logical to believe that Delta will protect its competitive RJ advantage and fill the 70 to 100 passenger "seat gap" in its fleet. Based upon Delta’s published fleet plan, the 57 CRJ-700’s "permitted" by the current scope only amounts to 25% of what the company apparently feels it needs.

The Mainline Cost Structure
The new scope agreement does little to address the mainline cost structure. With the pilots at Delta’s mainline competitors agreeing to give up 15 to 20% of their pay and benefits, Delta may presumably seek to do likewise. If the company seeks further cost reductions from its mainline pilots, scope will undoubtedly be part of the bargaining equation.


Delta MEC Says New Agreement Does Not Substantially Affect the Career Security of the Delta Pilots

In a weak attempt to justify its decision not to permit the rank and file to vote on the new agreement, the Delta pilot leadership claimed that no vote was required because the new agreement did not fit the MEC’s policy requiring a vote of the pilots on any agreement that substantially affects their pay, working conditions, retirement or career security.

Taken at face value, the Delta MEC’s statement is nothing short of an admission that the numerical and operational restrictions imposed upon ASA and Comair are in reality political and collective bargaining tools-and as such, have little to do with mainline job security. At the very least, the Delta MEC’s apparent flip-flop testifies to what extent ALPA’s leadership will go to protect its ability to wheel and deal with management using small jet restrictions as bargaining capital.

Will the New Agreement Add to ALPA’s Legal Woes?

While some may wish to believe the new agreement will help ALPA extricate itself from its legal predicament, the negotiation and content of the agreement may have the opposite effect for several reasons.

The content of the "new" agreement and the manner in which it was negotiated is apparently identical to the last round of predatory bargaining which spawned the litigation. By again ignoring its duty to the ASA and Comair pilots and "restoring" the harmful scope restrictions, ALPA can no longer claim that its disputed actions were the result of inadvertent oversights or omissions.
In both written and verbal arguments to the court, ALPA argued that the force majeure exemption rendered the scope ratios unenforceable thereby making any legal claims moot. However, ALPA’s apparent decision to withhold the fact that it was actively re-negotiating those very same provisions raises serious questions as to the sincerity of its arguments to the court.
As a consequence of ALPA’s uncertainty as to whether there would ever be reset negotiations, the Court issued instructions to ALPA to keep plaintiffs apprised of the status of any reset negotiations. The fact that ALPA planned, conducted, and concluded scope reset negotiations without providing any notice to the plaintiffs raises serious questions regarding ALPA’s compliance with the Court’s instructions.
When after the Delta MEC announced that it had entered into scope negotiations with Delta management, five Comair pilots filed contractual grievances questioning whether the negotiation, or re-negotiation, of certain scope provisions would violate the Comair working agreement. In response to repeated requests, ALPA claimed it did not have any evidence that would support the grievance. The revelation, after the fact, that it was in scope reset negotiations at the same time it denied having any pertinent information would appear to indicate that the union’s responses to the grievance was inaccurate and in bad faith.
Conclusion

ALPA’s decision to repair the Delta scope by merely "re-establishing" its harmful provisions is yet another clear indication that the union’s conduct is indeed arbitrary, discriminatory, and in bad faith. Notwithstanding the obvious conflict of interest, ALPA is intent upon supporting, coordinating, and funding the efforts of its mainline members to use scope as a remote control device to unilaterally impose any restrictions upon the union’s other members.

Not only are such actions an egregious violation of the union’s duty to the ASA and Comair pilots, but as the last year has shown, the political follies of the union leadership has proved harmful to all of ALPA’s members. While litigation is the least desirable of remedies, ALPA’s support of the Delta MEC’s predatory agenda proves that we have no other recourse at this time. However, we stand willing and prepared to engage in more constructive approach whenever ALPA can demonstrate that it is willing to resolve the current dispute and represent all its members at Delta fairly and equally.
 
~~~^~~~

All you guys who love scope clauses had better hope the RJDC doesn't win it's case...cause if it does, I would bet there will be some big changes at mainline carriers that will not necessarily be in favor of those pilot groups when it comes time for contract negotations.

Despite all the "propaganda" from ALPA lately about how small and large jets are "not in competition," that they really working for the benefit of both groups...this Delta scope reset is just proof that "propaganda" was the not the appropriate term...rather

disinformation: Incorrect and deliberately misleading information.

I'd rather ALPA national just come out and say, "hey, we primarily represent the big boys...that's our bread and butter...we'll do what we can for you small jet guys, but when push comes to shove, you're gonna take a back seat."

Better to deal with people you can't stand but who tell the truth, rather than those who tell you their your friend, and then intentionally lie to your face.
 
Do you guys ever rest????? With 1,015 pilots on furlough and DCI hiring like mad (ASA is hiring 80 a month) give it a break, or come here and join me on furlough!!!! DALPA is NOT restricting your jobs for mainline, or I would be working.
 
goldentrout said:
~~~^~~~
disinformation: Incorrect and deliberately misleading information.

Yep.."propeganda"........RJDC style.


goldentrout said:
~~~^~~~
Better to deal with people you can't stand but who tell the truth, rather than those who tell you their your friend, and then intentionally lie to your face.

Or tell you what you want to hear, because you'll apparently believe anything as long as it jives with your personal perception of the "truth".
 
TBKANE

My perception of the truth?

The truth is that I've been getting all kinds of newsletters from ALPA telling me about "new scope" clauses that protect all pilots within a "brand." They specifically state that "we are not in competition."

Then yesterday, we find out that the Delta MEC has pretty much reinstated the old scope clauses, which limit how many RJs Comair/ASA can fly, and limit the amount of flying we can do.

Please expain to me how I am not correctly perceiving the truth.

ALPA tells me that they are working for the best interest of all the pilots, pushing for "brand" scope that protects all pilots within a company.

After receiving all that disinformation, I find out the Delta MEC has gone back to old scope...which limits the # of jets and the amount of flying my pilot list can do?

Seems to me my "perception" is reality.
 
You guys just won't give it a rest, will you? There's over a thousand DAL pilots on the street and you're still going to get 135 planes under the new scope, yet you continue to whine. You won't be happy until you've robbed every DAL pilots of their job.
 
If I were a fellow regional pilot, I'd be furious at you guys (RJDC). You seem to ignore the big picture.....the overwhelming majority of regional pilots would like to move on to bigger and better equipment and pay.

ALPA is trying to safegaurd the jobs most of you would like to go to. I assume you've heard this before and think you'd like to stay at the glorious regionals forever. Well, most of your compatriots don't.

If you give management the runaway tool to transfer jet flying to much lower paid labor, of course they will take it. Over enough time they will be corrected by the market back to more standard gauge aircraft....the suppliers (airlines) are figuring out how to deliver them at seat prices competitive with RJ's....and as they do the explosive growth of RJ's will stop dramatically. Incidentally, RJ's are only a benefit in terms of lowering the costs of added frequency. It is still far less expensive (per seat) to move a larger aircraft, and major network airlines are figuring out that they can't afford the current route frequencies anyway.

BUT MEANWHILE they will happily steamroller right over all the jobs you guys (or your friends) would like to go to. Hope you like your cramped cockpit, minimal jetway access, and cramped cabins...because you're ensuring that you will get stuck in them for a long long time.

BTW I agree that market economics will dictate a repositioning of the pay scales on large equipment, but that will find a floor well above RJ scale. Today's RJ pay scales will make less long term sense when advancement opportunity to a major isn't part of the compensation.

Good luck to all......
 
Jesse,

Your use of half truths and illogical thinking in this update almost commical, even for you. While you may have some sort of following among others in your distorted world(what color is the sky there?) I don't think anyone including most pilots at the two airlines you represent(without their permission or your election) believe or listen to your dribble.

Super
 
George Zip is right on. The RJDC is comprised of Comair/ASA lifers who are intent on making the best of their limited careers at the regional level. The reason they don' have more supprt from their fellow regional/express pilots is because the majority of these pilots WANT TO WORK FOR MAINLINE!!!. The less mainline jobs, the worse it is for the majority of regional pilots.

There is nothing wrong with fighting for better working conditions where you work. It is definitely strike-worthy and we are stuck where we are for a long time. There IS something wrong with trying to diminish your fellow pilots' chances of realize their true career aspirations.
 
Lawyers fund

The RJDC is nothing but a few senior pilots pissing away their retirement to a bunch of lawyers. I am so sick of seeing unhappy pilots burning up my dues money so their lawyers can get paid.
Why can't they use the grievance process and their MEC the way the rest of us do? Why don't they see that their efforts are counterproductive?

RJ pilots now make up a significant portion of the ALPA membership and dues contributors. Yes there are pilots that never want to leave flying smaller aircraft, more power to them. Yes scope at mainline carriers is hurting expansion at the respective regionals. ALPA has finally seen the light and is addressing this issue. The RJDC guys would have the support of all regional pilots if they were using/participating in ALPA to further our careers/pay/QOL/retirement.

There are several ALPA represented RJ carriers in contract negotiations right now. If we all stick to our guns and hold out for real airline compensation since we are real airline pilots, we will secure our future and become and even stronger voice at ALPA.
 
RJDC suit

I agree that the RJDC suit is comprised of regional "lifers" trying
to expand their control at the regional level. I think they believe
that someday maybe their regional will become a "major" airline,
but that will not happen. There is no one single major CEO that
doesn't understand the important of the regional airline and its
place in the food chain. I would say everyone that comes to a
regional treats it as a stepping stone to the next level. Unfortunately, some people chose (or are restricted) to stay at
the regional level due to age, education, past violations, etc. or
they just want the schedule their seniority allows. I have no
problem with that, but I have a big problem with someone tearing down the working conditions, pay, and schedules that
past pilots have built up thru the years. The RJDC thinks that
the flying Delta allows Comair/ASA to do belongs to them and
therefore they should be allowed to negotiate with Delta. Wrong!
Just because Delta decided to buy Comair and ASA, it did not
automatically integrate us with Delta mainline. Each company
has its own management and that management is directed by
Delta, Inc. Good luck trying to convince Leo that he should negotiate with Comair/ASA on a contract. I'm sure he is in the
loop, but I don't think he's responsible for every little detail.
Since the RJDC has such a problem with ALPA negotiating for
both mainline and the regional side, I suggest those pilots "quit"
ALPA or convince their respective regionals to dump ALPA and
start their own association (not a good move in my opinion).

I wouldn't be surprise if you see a new lawsuit in the near future
comprised of Comair/ASA pilots suing the RJDC for limiting their
career. I for one would support that!
 
Alot of you guys have said some really insightful things here. I am guilty of sometimes grouping all the ASA and Comair pilots into the RJDC support circle.

The majority of my flying was done at a US Airways Express carrier. Most of the pilots there wanted to get their time in and get out.

While I respect everyones right to stay where they are, I think these rjdc Assholes are causing a bigger problem with the overall perception of a much larger group.

I for one am realizing that the majoity of pilots want to go to a mainline. I will continue to keep ASA and Comair separate from the rjdc in my mind. I think this is slowly being understood by some of my fellow Delta pilots, I am sure many more have realized this before me.

So long
 
Re: Lawyers fund

davessn763 said:
Why can't they use the grievance process and their MEC the way the rest of us do? Why don't they see that their efforts are counterproductive?

The issue is not scope. It is representation. The reason why we do not use the grievance process is because ALPA, illegally, refuses to allow the grievances to go forward. Duane Woerth has directed our grievances to the Bilateral Scope Impact Committee, which can not do anything. The RJDC did address the BSIC before the law suit and again, ALPA refused to do anything to address our concerns. (The RJDC will be glad to send you copies of the letters denying our rights to the grievance process)

The issue is not "regional lifers." I'm in my early 30's with a Master's and turbine PIC time, not a "lifer" by the typical definition. However, any idiot with a sense of history can see that allowing management to run alter ego airline operations destroys collective bargaining rights. Read ALPA's own publications, Flying the Line I & II and tell me that the RJDC and ALPA's founders are not like minded.

Repeatedly the RJDC's prognostications have been verified by no less than the Delta MEC when the truth could no longer be hidden. It is not "disinformation" because the news arrives six months before ALPA reluctantly confirms the truth.

ALPA was again given the opportunity to fix the problem and again went down the path of illegally denying Regional pilots the right to negotiate their pay and working conditions with their employer.

And you mainline guys who are angry at the RJDC for fighting your attempts to furlough Connection pilots for no reason other than mainline furloughs - why don't you get angry at your own representatives, who with ALPA's illegal practices, have still been so incompetent as to allow all of this alter ego Delta flying to occurr? Seems like you should be asking questions of the representatives that represent you with your dues money!

Perhaps you should support the RJDC. You must admit, your MEC's "effective scope" has not been very effective. A better course of action would have been a push to end Delta's alter ego operations (not expand them as your MEC voted) and combine lists so that all Delta flying was performed by Delta pilots.

So the six month cycle continues. In six months the Delta MEC, Delta and ALPA will again confirm the prognostications of the RJDC, but by then most will have forgotten this news letter.

Regards,
~~~^~~~ (not Jessie, but I take any allegation to be him as a compliment. He is a smart guy)
 
Re: Re: Lawyers fund

~~~^~~~ said:
A better course of action would have been a push to end Delta's alter ego operations (not expand them as your MEC voted) and combine lists so that all Delta flying was performed by Delta pilots.

SoRegards,
~~~^~~~ (not Jessie, but I take any allegation to be him as a compliment. He is a smart guy)



Sounds good to me, but how will this help you? You are not a Delta pilot.

There is a way to become a Delta pilot, but the rjdc is not the way. You just need to interview when they are hiring, which your group seems hell bent on making sure they never do again.

But I guess your chance to become a Delta pilot the traditional way ended when you became a part of the rjdc.
 
Last edited:
Re: Re: Re: Lawyers fund

NYRANGERS said:
Sounds good to me, but how will this help you? You are not a Delta pilot.
Why don't you ask one of your Captains that hired in with Northeast, Western, Ransome, or Pan Am? The answer is the same... Or stop by the Delta Heritage museum and look at the F27 in DAL colors, or the display on the "merger" of ASA.

Clearly those pilots who came before us understand. It is you who cling to bigotry while your fellow pilots are being furloughed.
 
Last edited:
Re: Re: Re: Re: Lawyers fund

~~~^~~~ said:
Why don't you ask one of your Captains that hired in with Northeast, Western, Ransome, or Pan Am? The answer is the same... Or stop by the Delta Heritage museum and look at the F27 in DAL colors, or the display on the "merger" of ASA.

Clearly those pilots who came before us understand. It is you who cling to bigotry while your fellow pilots are being furloughed.

So let me get this straight. You are equating the Pan Am merger with ASA buyout...??

And how the hell did you tie bigotry into this thread?

PS. I have talked to a few Western and Pan Am captains that I have flown with. And they think you rjdc guys are full of **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**. Why don't you ask some of them yourself. It would seem (in YOUR opinion) that these pilots would be a great help to your lost cause.
 
Last edited:
If you ask me the RJDC is kind of silly. I understand what they are doing, but it doesnt make sense to limit your own company. I mean you guys are owned by Delta right? Seems your effort would be better spent trying to secure a flow through, which in these economic times wouldnt be too hard. Or if you really wasnt to pi$$ in the wind try to convince a judge that since you were bought by Delta that you should be intergrated into the senority list. That should be a hoot.

But I bet you have a better chance at any of the above that what your trying to do. JMHO
 
mckpickle said:
Or if you really wasnt to pi$$ in the wind try to convince a judge that since you were bought by Delta that you should be intergrated into the senority list. That should be a hoot.

But I bet you have a better chance at any of the above that what your trying to do. JMHO

IMHO that would be the fastest way for them to be sold off. It would generate some much needed capital, and might put to rest the rjdc clowns.

take care
 
I hope they do sell us

Then the gloves would really be off, and we would take all of your flying.
 
Re: I hope they do sell us

9rj9 said:
Then the gloves would really be off, and we would take all of your flying.

How would it be any different from now? Unless you plan on competing with Delta.
 
Re: I hope they do sell us

9rj9 said:
Then the gloves would really be off, and we would take all of your flying.


What? You must be kidding?? If they did sell us (ASA), they
would definitely cancel our contract for Delta flying and we
would lose all of our future options for CRJs since we would
no longer be part of DCI. I don't think we have the capital to
start our own marketing and ticketing campaign to sell ASA
tickets. Most people that fly on us don't even know who ASA
is, they just think we are Delta.

Just my $.02!

601Pilot

PS Someone please tell my "smiley" to stop drinking all my
da$mn beer!
 
Re: Re: Lawyers fund

~~~^~~~ said:
The issue is not scope. It is representation. The reason why we do not use the grievance process is because ALPA, illegally, refuses to allow the grievances to go forward. Duane Woerth has directed our grievances to the Bilateral Scope Impact Committee, which can not do anything. The RJDC did address the BSIC before the law suit and again, ALPA refused to do anything to address our concerns. (The RJDC will be glad to send you copies of the letters denying our rights to the grievance process)

Your flying is done under DL code, correct? That is Delta code. I believe that COMBINED, Comair and ASA groups are outnumbered by Delta ALPA. Where is the problem? Even if you had "representation" and your MEC was present at DALPA negotiations, AND the vote went to THE ENTIRE Comair and ASA memberships <which I don't think it should have anyway>, you STILL would have lost due to sheer numbers. Secondly, Delta has 1000+ pilots furloughed. Comair and ASA are STILL hiring in mass numbers. What's the bellyaching about?!



The issue is not "regional lifers." I'm in my early 30's with a Master's and turbine PIC time, not a "lifer" by the typical definition. However, any idiot with a sense of history can see that allowing management to run alter ego airline operations destroys collective bargaining rights. Read ALPA's own publications, Flying the Line I & II and tell me that the RJDC and ALPA's founders are not like minded.

What I gather from this is that you are upset over the lack of scope at your airline. How many carriers fly under DL code aside from CMR and ASA? Personally, I think ASA and Comair should own ALL of DCI flying and dump the contract carriers. However, that's the lack of scope on your end. Everyone puts priorities elsewhere, but if it is THAT important to you, perhaps it's worth striking over.



Repeatedly the RJDC's prognostications have been verified by no less than the Delta MEC when the truth could no longer be hidden. It is not "disinformation" because the news arrives six months before ALPA reluctantly confirms the truth.

ALPA was again given the opportunity to fix the problem and again went down the path of illegally denying Regional pilots the right to negotiate their pay and working conditions with their employer.


If your reference is Delta.... Numbers my friend. Numbers. You lose.


I'm an outsider, but man, you go to ALPA's message boards and all you see is RJDC being hashed and rehashed. Come here, and watch the same thing. It is a rather interesting reading, however, having read all sorts of posts, my conclusion is that RJDC is NOTHING but an attempt to steal seniority numbers at Delta by a SMALL group of CMR/ASA pilots. This whole B.S. about "fair representation" is nothing but coffee-house crap.
 
Somebody riddle me this: with so many of their bretheren on furlough, why isn't DALPA pushing for the CRJ-700s and -900s to be flown by mainline instead of DCI? More planes require more crews.
 
VFR on Top said:
Somebody riddle me this: with so many of their bretheren on furlough, why isn't DALPA pushing for the CRJ-700s and -900s to be flown by mainline instead of DCI? More planes require more crews.

It seems with all the BS and malice going on between Delta and the Connection carriers, that this is what we are heading for.
 
VFR on Top

Very insightful for a guy with 100 hours flying a Cessna 172.

RJs, big and small, is and will revolutionize the industry over the next 5 to 10 years.

All the machinations that ALPA does to try and "preserve the profession" fly in the face of market realities.

US Air...bankrupt...UAL...going bankrupt...DAL/NWA...losing billions a year.

Comair/ASA/ACA...profitable and hiring

Jet Blue/SWA/AirTran...making money and hiring

It continually amazes me how people on this message board cannot see this blatantly obvious, undeniable shift in the airline market.

If 727/757/737/767/L10-11s, etc. made money, everyone would be flying them!

Instead, they are buying RJs, B717s, delaying/cancelling orders for those above mentioned, and parking/selling many of the same.

The airline industry will never be the same! All this talk about "preserving" these high paying jobs denys the fact that the airlines can no longer afford to pay this exorbitant overhead and compete with AirTran/Frontier/JetBlue/SWA.

AirTran will get you from ATL to Orlando just as quickly and safely as DAL, for less, and at less overhead cost to the company.

I have a friend who wants to go from DEN to Florida over Christmas. One would think UAL would be the obvious choice...wrong! Jet Blue will do it for 20% less than UAL, and it's a direct flight...and he bought a Jet Blue ticket.

I can go to SWA's website today and buy a totally refundable, totally changeable ticket to any SWA destination for $299...some places less than that...with one day's notice. Try that same deal on the UAL/DAL/NWA/US Air website. Impossible!

RJs...50...70...90...and maybe even over 100 seats (is it still an RJ) are coming. ALPA would do better to get these planes at mainline and get their guys off furlough.

TBKANE...what would you rather do?

1. Get back to flying a 50 or 70 or 90 seat RJ now at DAL mainline, pay some bills, which still gives you the potential for "big bucks" later.

2. Sit on furlough for 2...3...5 years to "preserve the profession" for ALPA.

I feel for all you guys on furlough, as I was furloughed myself after 9/11...it sucks, plain and simple.

As for "robbing jobs." DAL management has the responsibility for decideing which DAL owned plane will fly a specific route for maximum profitability.

If that means that DAL makes more money flying 2 70 seat RJs a day from CVG to Bangor rather than 1 737, that's what's best for the company...that's what makes the most money...that's what best for the shareholders...and that's what best for all of our job security...to have a strong, profitable company.

If the DALPA MEC was a little more visionary than "scope," TBKANE might be sitting in the left or right seat of that 70 seat RJ flying to Bangor tonight. Instead, DAL has 1000 guys on the street to "preserve the profession," instead of having them in the left and right seat of that 70 RJ where they would be flying, paying their bills, and watching their seniority list grow and instead of shrink every month.

TBKane and all you mainline guys...you are all well educated, smart, intelligent, achieving people.

Why do you still cling to the ALPA strategy that has helped (I said helped now, not TOTALLY responsible for) put 2 major airlines into bankruptcy, and put thousands of you on the street, with no prospect for recall anytime in the forseeable future?

I just don't get it?????????????????

It really is this simple.

1. Every DAL flight is flown by DAL pilot.

2. All pilots flying a DAL aircraft are on one list by date of hire.

3. Everyone goes up/down/out the bottom by date of hire (which means the 600 hundred or so guys hired by ASA/Comair since 9/11 and the 600 or so more to be hired next year wouldn't be hired...all the DAL furloughees would have jobs).

4. We get paid a benefit package that allows the company to weather bad times...and we get profit sharing in the good times (gee sounds like SWA...the ones hiring and making money).

Folks, it really is just this simple, isn't it?
 
goldentrout

Again we find someone who thinks taking pay concessions is the only way to fix an airline. You my friend are a 'simple person".
 
goldentrout said:
It really is this simple.

.....

2. All pilots flying a DAL aircraft are on one list by date of hire.

Not really that simple. I made the choice to leave my left seat gig to start over at DAL. This happens and folks who chose not to take the gamble (yup, I'm furloughed, they're not...it's a gamble) suddenly jump me in senority and take my $105/hr seat and I get a new $32/hr seat.

Really, I've said it before on the board, I'd love to see a staple happen (it won't, not because of DALPA, but because Leo and Fred won't have their portfolio anymore) but if you didn't have the courage to leave before, what gives you the right to demand senority (and if your at CMR, esp, now that your MEC is giving me the finger by saying sorry, we don't care about you and your family being out of work, we just want to make a political statement because we can)

It's one or the other. You can either be your own company, or not. Too many statements on this board only make us the same when you guys want something, but seperate companies when it - heaven forbid - benifits a mainline pilot.

I'd say the Comair MEC made the decision for it's pilots this week.
 
FlyingSig said:
but if you didn't have the courage to leave before, what gives you the right to demand senority (and if your at CMR, esp, now that your MEC is giving me the finger by saying sorry, we don't care about you and your family being out of work, we just want to make a political statement because we can)


Geez Sig,

Don't you get it? Because it would be the right thing to do in the name of union brotherhood. I know that is the truth. I read it on the RJDC website.

TIC:rolleyes:
 
Huhh?

I am thinking that Goldentrout did not mean a total DOH between DCI and DALPA. If he did, he is delerious. At least at ASA, that is not the thinking (at least for the most part). Staple is really the only option and understood by the majority. For the furloughees, I fully support DOH integration, but no bumping. I truely hope this stuff gets fixed as the industy is changing and recalls will not be for some time. I still do not understand how someone can say that they will stay furloughed for several years (to save the profession) than accept reduced compensation (as a whole) to keep all of the pilots on the property. 5 years of 100K (just an example) versus 5 years of 40K to come back to 100K makes no sense when you can have 5 years of 80K the whole time.
Someone plese enlighten me! Thanks!
 

Latest resources

Back
Top Bottom