RJDC Litigation Update 06-12-07

[PCL_128]

In fact, ALPA can destroy the litigation by doing the right thing and making the RJDC irrelevant.

There's nothing that ALPA can do to stop Dan and his cronies from pursuing this lawsuit. That's the reason that his settlement demands from a few years ago are so unreasonable: he wants to make his demands so egregious that ALPA has no choice but to fight this out and not settle. As I said before, the RJDC cares only about money, seniority, and revenge. This isn't about making a better ALPA.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Stop right there. Readers..... soak this in for a minute. With the RLA, current administration and political environement..... management doesn't have to do anything....

They have lawyers telling them how to get our of current CBA's and they certainly don't have to agree to a National Single list, National Pay rates.. Brand seniority lists... The traveling public wants to show up at the airport and fly to point B. they don't want labor issues.....
...

Good point. These days airline managers think they have discovered the "Holy Grail" by destroying longevity. Keep the airplanes moving and the pilots chasing them. The mainline guys have not seen this, yet, but with DHL/Astar and Doug Parker talking about not merging US/AWA, their bosses are thinking about it. We all know the ASA, SkyWest, 900 story already.

But airline managers need stability too. Moving airplanes does cost money (maybe not as much as they get from destroying longevity).

The RJDC figured airline management would blast them with both barrells since the result of RJDC's reforms would make ALPA a whole lot more effective and cohesive. At one point it looked like Delta would be a named defendant to the litigation, because obviously they would have been brought to the table with anything that developed between the pilots all three wholly owned subsidiaries.

This subject deserves its own thread - but I have ideas on how both labor and management could benefit from career stability. For starters, the pay scales need to be adjusted to remove the low low wages at the bottom and the very top. Big money should follow big productivity.

There is no reason a professional pilot entering 121 service should make $19 an hour. At the same time a senior 777 Captain should not make only twice what a topped out 40 seat CRJ-200 Captain makes. Obviously both are underpaid. Pay scales should be flatter, based on productivity and remove the tremendous advantage that new carriers have over established airlines.

 

[~~~^~~~]

There's nothing that ALPA can do to stop Dan and his cronies from pursuing this lawsuit.

If there was no merit to the cause, individual supporters would not be sending checks.

 

[N2264J]

[Braveheart] has been on this board trying to tell the Skywest pilots not to certify ALPA.

That's not what was said and I invite anyone who wants to go back and read the thread to click on the blue icon by braveheart's name below.

The upshot was that if ALPA were to reform and it's scope policies weren't so discriminatory, it wouldn't have such trouble recruiting (stalled on its third drive at Skywest) the smaller carrier pilots.

You give the RJDC too much credit. It's ALPA's own behavior that derails its recruiting drives.

Although the Skywestalpa.org web site is more courteous towards the RJDC than some of ALPA's other publications, it does more harm than good to the organizing effort as it's obvious to the reader how hard ALPA is kicking the rudder to avoid the real issue of its own conduct...

The moral of the story is that the only way for ALPA to address this issue is to show how credible reforms have been enacted. Telling prospective members that they should join ALPA so they can "help fix it" is a loosing argument that merely affirms ALPA's refusal to enact reforms.

 

[Occam's Razor]

If there was no merit to the cause, individual supporters would not be sending checks.

So the test of "merit" in a cause is whether or not pilots send a check in for it?

Now that's funny!

 

[~~~^~~~]

Occam - you may be getting this out of context. PCL's point was there was NOTHING ALPA could do to avoid litigation. I simply pointed out if ALPA would reform there would be no reason for pilots to continue to fund the litigation.

The Court has decided the case has merit to go forward.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Occam - you may be getting this out of context. PCL's point was there was NOTHING ALPA could do to avoid litigation. I simply pointed out if ALPA would reform there would be no reason for pilots to continue to fund the litigation.

Nah...I think I understand the context. Pilots sending in checks means those pilots think the case has merit.

I don't believe "throwing mud against the wall to see if it sticks" -type actions indicate legitimacy...or serve as evidence of "merit".

Truth is, most of us have purchased a Lottery ticket, even though we know the odds are really against us winning. We do it because the chance of a huge pay-off is intriguing. Cue the RJDC fight song!

Here's the rub: The guys they're suing are us! All of us.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Here's the rub: The guys they're suing are us! All of us.

Well, we can't make them stop. The only party to the litigation we have any control over is ALPA.

 

[N2264J]

You RJDC Cheerleaders are real gems. When you got called out on your lawsuit your defense is..look.. other pilots are sueing ALPA... see its ok!

That's not it and he knows it.

- Jmoney asserted that the RJDC are management tools seeking to destroy the union.

- I replied that two former ALPA EVPs, two former United MEC Chairmen and several major airline pilot groups haved sued ALPA but haven't been accused of being management lackeys bent on divide and conquer - I guess they get a pass because they were all big airplane drivers.

- Then Lewshun responds by implying our only justification is that other pilots have sued ALPA so it's OK.

See how the smear works? This guy can't even admit to himself that he works for an alter ego now because having two diametrically opposed
thought processes might lock up and crash his belief system.

By the way, there's a whole website of justification here for anyone willing to educate themselves:

www.rjdefense.com

 

[Catbird]

Easy guys. Occam and the rest of his Salad Tossers at National will be pulling on the Adult Diapers, BB Gun and Mace. Settle down or they will be requesting a rental van post haste. Flight Loss Payment of course for the time spent on the Jihad. I can see them now, performing the pre Jihad checklist.
Command/Response

1.Alpa National issued Diaper-Checked!
2.BB Gun-Checked
3.Mace Spray-Checked
4.Legs Shaved-Checked
5.Expense Account Log-Checked and additional blank pages avaliable!

Saddle Up Rezzy and your mate Occam, Alpa National is depending on you to maintain the Selective Amnesia.

 

[Exskydiverdrivr]

acrap quote-The RJDC is also actively recruiting all pilots without a college degree ....

Aren't you glad Mommy and Daddy paid for all that college? Now you can sit back and point your widdle finger and blame others.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

everyone who has been an open advocate of this organization or the lawsuit should be expelled from the Association as soon as this is dismissed on summary judgment

Do you really think ALPA would try this? After all we are talking about the same ALPA that let Continental and the ex-Eastern SC*BS back INTO the union. And huh... those guys actually crossed the picket line to fly airplanes.

At least these mis-guided RJ pilots are trying the courtroom approach.

My .02 cents

 

[PCL_128]

Do you really think ALPA would try this?

No, but I can dream can't I?

After all we are talking about the same ALPA that let Continental and the ex-Eastern SC*BS back INTO the union. And huh... those guys actually crossed the picket line to fly airplanes.

Actually, the EAL SCABs were not let back into the union. We had a couple of them at PCL and they were not allowed membership. The CAL SCABs were allowed back, but that was only because they made up such a large portion of the CAL pilot group that the only way we could get enough votes to pass the merger with the IACP was to allow them back in. It was a tough decisions, from what I've heard from the guys involved at the time. If you denied entry to the CAL SCABs, then you wouldn't be able to get the good CAL pilots back that wanted to be ALPA members again. If you let the SCABs back in, then it's a credibility problem. Tough decision, but I think they did the right thing. I think Occam was a BOD member at the time the decision was made, so he might be able to elaborate.

At least these mis-guided RJ pilots are trying the courtroom approach.

They aren't "misguided." They're selfish and short-sighted.

 

[Occam's Razor]

If you denied entry to the CAL SCABs, then you wouldn't be able to get the good CAL pilots back that wanted to be ALPA members again. If you let the SCABs back in, then it's a credibility problem. Tough decision, but I think they did the right thing. I think Occam was a BOD member at the time the decision was made, so he might be able to elaborate.

You got it.

The decision boiled down to this:

Is your hatred of the scabs greater than your loyalty to the faithful ALPA members who were full-term strikers? Maybe it's a "Marine thing", but Semper Fi means you don't leave your buddies on the battlefield. Scabs are beneath my contempt. The loyal strikers are my heros.

Honor the warriors.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You make a good point, but the lawsuit does not prevent ALPA from doing the right thing. In fact, ALPA can destroy the litigation by doing the right thing and making the RJDC irrelevant.

Again..The RJDC is making ALPA liable for market forces and actions of the company. The deal is.. the RJDC will have a very difficult time sueing DAL Corp and an even more difficult time sueing market forces...

Scope is an agreement between ALPA & DAL Corp... is DAL Corp being sued by the RJDC???????

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The RJDC figured airline management would blast them with both barrells since the result of RJDC's reforms would make ALPA a whole lot more effective and cohesive. At one point it looked like Delta would be a named defendant to the litigation, because obviously they would have been brought to the table with anything that developed between the pilots all three wholly owned subsidiaries.

Not to mention DAL's deep pockets...

This subject deserves its own thread - but I have ideas on how both labor and management could benefit from career stability. For starters, the pay scales need to be adjusted to remove the low low wages at the bottom and the very top. Big money should follow big productivity.

Agreed! The key to success is productivity... However by eliminating the top scales you are going to piss off everyone. Pilots are not socialist... they are greedy capitalist... They all want to wipe the brow of Gordon Geeko...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Occam - you may be getting this out of context. PCL's point was there was NOTHING ALPA could do to avoid litigation. I simply pointed out if ALPA would reform there would be no reason for pilots to continue to fund the litigation.

The Court has decided the case has merit to go forward.

Reform via litigation...please.... it is going to take a bloddy revolution....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Well, we can't make them stop. The only party to the litigation we have any control over is ALPA.

cause it was pragmatic to sue DAL corp or makert focres... so you went for the only practical target..... sueing your brother???

 

[737 Pylt]

Do you really think ALPA would try this? After all we are talking about the same ALPA that let Continental and the ex-Eastern SC*BS back INTO the union. And huh... those guys actually crossed the picket line to fly airplanes.

At least these mis-guided RJ pilots are trying the courtroom approach.

My .02 cents

Wolfpakpilot:
You're mistaken.....
The difference is/was, at least the Eastern scabs waited until there was a strike before trying to take other peoples' jobs....

737

 

[Nevets]

Ford-Cooksey Lawsuit Settled

On Monday, June 16, a federal district judge in New York approved the settlement in the Ford-Cooksey case. This is the lawsuit originally brought by pilots at Comair and ASA more than seven years ago challenging negotiation of the scope clause in the Delta collective bargaining agreement.

As you know, in October, the ALPA Executive Board approved the settlement. The main feature of the settlement is an addition to ALPA Policy that will require appointment of a Scope Subcommittee of the Collective Bargaining Committee. This subcommittee will have two main functions: One function is to review and analyze ALPA’s approach to scope issues and to make sure that our scope clauses are effective in protecting pilot jobs. The second is to work with Negotiating Committees during scope negotiations to make sure there is coordination between ALPA pilot groups within airline families with respect to scope negotiations.

The settlement will go into effect 30 days from last Monday. During the next few weeks the members of the new Scope Subcommittee will be designated, and will begin preparation for their important work.