RJDC Litigation Update 06-12-07

[Occam's Razor]

Dude! According to your mantra...it's all about you. So please spare me the chaff, and take some personal accountability. This case...right now. Greedy whiney victims!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

As opposed to "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"?

Ugh... yeah Joe... if you have to make a decision are you going to choose the one the screws more or less people.....

1. I don't think the "many" are being served well by ALPA's current approach to scope.

Then run for election and make positive change.... fact is you can't. You can get your own people to listen to you..so you go underground and radical... persona non grata...

The mainline groups have lost around 12000 jobs since 911, and the regionals are bidding against one another..... nobody is really winning with the current approach...

And your solution: a lawsuit...

Joe... why? why do you do this to yourself and all of us...

2. Do you really expect the "few" to just allow the "many" to dictate things?

In a democratic organization: YES! What do you suggest? Besides your radical action. Joe you are a union terrorist...

Get over it Joe.... the majority do not want you.

The "many" can do what they want, but they shouldn't be surprised when the "few" fight back.....

You mean when a few sue back. Whatever Joe.... you are simply deadweight that will be cut free...its too bad you hindered progress cause we could've been so much futher down the road without your version of a whiney, pouty five year old demanding we stop at South of the Border on I-95

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

bravehart and/or Joe M.

What is the position of the RJDC being counter-sued? In theroy.....

 

[737 Pylt]

You sidestepped the question which is par for the course with you...

Its better than putting it through the rjdc filter!

Again, what does a reserve 767 captain make at Delta acarpe... you are proud... so tell us..... Quit being a chicken$hit and answer the question acarpe......

Speaking of chicken$hit, how's dan and jessee doing?
The pay for a DL 767 12 year captain is $157.62/hr for a 70 hour guarantee. If he/she is international category, there's a $5/hr override for all international flying!

By the way acarpe, we don't have any scope at the regional level, so what do I care if it all goes away.... it isn't helping me anyway....

Then why do you cry your whiny dumbass about the DL portfolio? You know the one where you complain about CHQ, MESA, Jet link, Freedom, Republic?
Oh that's right, because not one of you jerkoff's can't tell the truth!
So what does an rjdc elected official make? Or is your pay based off your worthless lawsuit that costs my union money?

737

 

[Sig]

Besides your radical action. Joe you are a union terrorist...

LOUD NOISES!

Wait, that's me in absolute tears over that statement. Union terrorist? Shyt, let's appoint him to the vaunted VP of CashMoney- if Joe's a card-carrying terrorist, he's certainly petered over Beebe.

 

[FightingIrish]

There are many at ASA that admire what Joe has to say. At least someone has the stones to tell it like it is.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I think even my adversarial friends at the majors would admit ALPA has conflicts of interest that it has allowed to grow into double standards. There are multiple tiers of "representation" that ALPA members recieve, depending on where they work.

ALPA was against scope at any of the wholly owned Regionals because ALPA did not want a Regional MEC to negotiate a deal that in any way bound a Mainline MEC. ALPA's view has always been that regionals do not own flying.

The problem is that mainline pilots generally do not care what happens to the flying once it gets outsourced. In fact, some pilots feel the more cheaply it can be done, the better.

The airlines most effected by ALPA's scope position were the wholly owned regional subsidiaries of Major airlines who used to enjoy nearly 100% of their major partner's business. Now all of the flying once performed by airlines like ASA and Comair have been put out to bid.

The RJDC's fight has been to correct ALPA's representational double standard. Many of us believe that this is a profession and we can only raise the profession by ensuring our least powerful members are brought to a professional standard. We are all Air Line Pilots.

The RJDC believes that scope which involves all the ALPA members performing flying within the brand will be stronger than one group negotiating to harm other ALPA members. It makes sense.

Once the Delta pilots decided to outsource flying, why shouldn't the Comair, or ASA pilots be allowed to negotiate scope to prevent that flying from being sent to SkyWest and Chautauqua?

ALPA has negotiated scope in such a way that members at my airline have been excluded from the process. Scope does need to be re-negotiated - to make it stronger.

You know - if ALPA ever is going to really "Take it Back" they are going to have to include the Rj drivers in the negotiations. The truth is, the RJDC's positions are being slowly adopted by ALPA national (refer to Holding Company LOAs) It is too late to change the outcome at carriers like mine, but I recognize and applaud positive change when I see it.

Complete renegotiation of scope is probably not going to happen now - but remember when the suit was typed up all three carriers were owned by Delta and all three were in section 6 negotiations with the same bargaining agent and same owner. Much has changed since then.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Nice Try Fins...

Whatever the RJDC wants on paper is different from what they want in thier actions.

The RJDC is a divisive group. It doesn't seek the high road. It is simply a sibling yelling at another sibling..to stop yelling.

The RJDC has built walls and placed cannons in position. That is it.

If the RJDC wanted to stop the scope violations of mainline onto the regionals then it would take another path....

some considerations... until your movement is accepted by the majority is the RJDC willing to [continue] to freefall into the abyss of dis-unity and ineffectiveness.

The RJDC is a local issue. A DAL brand issue. Until your efforts are agreed upon by UAL, NWA, AAA and CAL brands then it remains local. But yet the RJDC actions effect all ALPA pilots.

The RJDC rather should have come up with a better acronym that addresses the real issues.. Brand Scope....not trying to carve out your own piece of the holy land.... You guys are the Hamas of Air Line Pilots....

But it is too late.... the crime is in progress and to say "oops sorry, forget the armed intervention, bombings and hostages, we made a mistake and would like to reapproach this issue from a working-together stand point"....

I know I know... you tired to deal with the DAL MEC and National and they shunned you.... and they bear some responsibility for that... but maybe there are no statesmen in the RJDC..just pissed off radicals....with skewed expectations....

I really wish though the RJDC could find away to make thier issues workable...

 

[~~~^~~~]

Nice Try Fins...

It is simply a sibling yelling at another sibling..to stop yelling.

I really wish though the RJDC could find away to make thier issues workable...

Your post was really good.

The RJDC litigation is a paternity suit. It is looking for ALPA to recognize ALPA members as their own and then live up to the responsibilities of caring for them just like ALPA's other children are cared for. Admittedly the RJDC is a "problem child" with issues, but its members are still members of the family.

"Brand Scope" is a solution, but not the only solution. The RJDC's idea was to fix the representational problem, then allow the actual elected representatives to do their job. This does effect all ALPA members, including those in the service of the US Air and Northwest brands.

The RJDC can not really force workable solutions. Only ALPA can. The RJDC does not "represent" pilots, ALPA does. But to represent pilots effectively there has to be a balance of powers and a judiciary in ALPA. ALPA has to have a Constitutional structure which allows for MEC's to sort out their problems internally and which protects minority members from predatory actions by larger (or better connected) groups with the goal of improving our profession together.

ALPA effectively locked my MEC out of negotiations which could have prevented the harm ASA pilots are suffering. The RJDC has the tool to blow the locks off the door.

Of course fighting for change is going to get the "terrorist" label thrown at you. But to the British, Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson were "terrorists," so was Martin Luthur King. As a very young child I remember my Dad and Uncle calling King a "troublemaker." So be it. History remembers him differently.

Like most folks who fight for change, the leadership of the RJDC is not likely to be thought of fondly in their own time. But as you well pointed out, truth resonates with people and eventually become populism. ALPA has adopted much of the RJDC's platform and I hope it continues in that direction. Also, many of us are either on board, or getting on board at legacy carriers and can begin to teach others that scope solutions which capitalize on ALPA National's ability to reach across MEC lines are not a threat to mainline pilots. In fact, a more inclusive representative structure makes us stronger.

Then, just as you pointed out, what once appeared radical just seems like a good idea once everyone understands that "working together" does not mean giving in to the enemy.

Candidly, even as a RJDC supporter, I wish there were not some of the requests for relief that are contained in the litigation. I completely understand why they have to be there, but now that the harm to ASA and Comair is already underway I think the unsavory bits of the relief are all that is left. I don't know that ALPA will ever have the opportunities it had in 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2004, or 2006 to fix the scope issue.

And for the disclaimer - I don't speak for the RJDC and am not authorized to do so. They write their own stuff. I'm not a Plaintiff.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The RJDC litigation is a paternity suit. It is looking for ALPA to recognize ALPA members as their own and then live up to the responsibilities of caring for them just like ALPA's other children are cared for. Admittedly the RJDC is a "problem child" with issues, but its members are still members of the family.

Agreed...but do you think sueing your mother anr/or father will get family acceptance? meanwhile the RJDC is alienating its other siblings...

"Brand Scope" is a solution, but not the only solution. The RJDC's idea was to fix the representational problem, then allow the actual elected representatives to do their job. This does effect all ALPA members, including those in the service of the US Air and Northwest brands.

Agreed there are lots of ways to fix problems. Another problem.. the AAA, NWA, UAL brands aren't on board with your efforts and most important the RJDC methodologies...

The RJDC can not really force workable solutions. Only ALPA can.

Agreed. the trick is to influence ALPA to agree to your problem and become an advocate of the RJDC's issues. Not an adversary. And thus.. is ALPA's role, delima (sp), quandry on CapHill.

Do you think ALPA would be effective if it started sueing the industry organizations?

The RJDC does not "represent" pilots, ALPA does. But to represent pilots effectively there has to be a balance of powers and a judiciary in ALPA. ALPA has to have a Constitutional structure which allows for MEC's to sort out their problems internally and which protects minority members from predatory actions by larger (or better connected) groups with the goal of improving our profession together.

I like the fact that you have a solution. Most guys are great problem identifiers (or complainers) but offer no solutions.

However, I don't see a judicary branch of ALPA as progressive. Rather, if we had a "Great Unifier" that brought the MEC's together...to the point where the DAL MEC would say "I empathize with the ASA and CMR MEC's and those pilots, how can we help?"

Idealisitc? Maybe.. but is the current system working? Is the RJDC working?

(the great unifier would be the president or his designee)

ALPA effectively locked my MEC out of negotiations which could have prevented the harm ASA pilots are suffering. The RJDC has the tool to blow the locks off the door.

You can't control people's mind. You might blow off the locks but the minds of the DAL MEC and National will still be adversarial. Instead the goal is to convince the DAL MEC and National to want to work toward the goals of the RJDC.

That of course takes a unique individual(s).....

Of course fighting for change is going to get the "terrorist" label thrown at you. But to the British, Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson were "terrorists," so was Martin Luthur King. As a very young child I remember my Dad and Uncle calling King a "troublemaker." So be it. History remembers him differently.

If you've got a vision... go for it.... but be prepared for history's judgement..

Like most folks who fight for change, the leadership of the RJDC is not likely to be thought of fondly in their own time. But as you well pointed out, truth resonates with people and eventually become populism. ALPA has adopted much of the RJDC's platform and I hope it continues in that direction. Also, many of us are either on board, or getting on board at legacy carriers and can begin to teach others that scope solutions which capitalize on ALPA National's ability to reach across MEC lines are not a threat to mainline pilots. In fact, a more inclusive representative structure makes us stronger.

And think how much further you'd be if you weren't adversarial...

Then, just as you pointed out, what once appeared radical just seems like a good idea once everyone understands that "working together" does not mean giving in to the enemy.

I agree there is merit to the RJDC... it's methodologies are quite lacking, divisive and regressive...

Instead, the RJDC should've used the LEC, MEC, BOD, EC and EB structure to effective positive change...

 

[~~~^~~~]

Instead, the RJDC should've used the LEC, MEC, BOD, EC and EB structure to effective positive change...

It did exhaust those remedies first. Then it asked for changes in ALPA's behavior and the sword is the monetary compensation request. I hate that the sword even has to be there, but I guess the philosophy is, "if you have them by the short hairs, their hearts and minds will follow."

In my other career, I have managed almost 100 cases to trial and in 93% the outcome was better than my pre-trial position. My largest cases involved matters which potentially exceeded a billion dollar damage awards (shame I work by the hour and not contingency fee). In my humble, but experienced, opinion as an observer who gets paid to evaluate cases, the RJDC Plaintiffs have an incredibly strong case and even more ALPA faces an uphill battle in a Court system that leans both pro plaintiff and anti union. If this case ever gets heard I expect ALPA to get clocked. The issue will not be the merits of the case, but ALPA's ability to pay (and ALPA's offshore tricks will not help it as much as their politically oriented attorneys have told them)

Just look around at what has happened to pilots at ASA and Comair. Subtract that figure from what would have been the likely result of tripartied scope negotiations in 2000, or just in view of the changes from CY96 to CY2000 scope, and you come up with roughly $2 million per pilot. Then you figure a seniority list is a natural class for a similarly situated group in a class action and you are talking some figures well in excess of ALPA's solvency. When Judges ask questions about "Why you have not filed this as a Class Action?" Defendants should take serious notice.

If ALPA can buy its way out of that mess by simply providing the full representation that the ASA and Comair pilots are entitled to anyway - why don't they?

I have painted the nightmare scenario. But that is where this is headed if ALPA does not enact reforms. Lets look at the "opportunities:"

• The SkyWest pilots would benefit from ALPA membership, but do not realize it because ALPA National has done such a poor job for the ASA pilots. ALPA can turn this around by enacting reforms and making promises in writing, just like ALPA did for the FedEx pilots.
• ALPA could turn around its' string of representational losses by reforming and fixing the problems that make smaller airlines not want to be ALPA members.
• Once SkyWest is on board, ALPA could negotiate one list for ASA. There goes half of the plaintiffs and probably all the damages of half the natural class in the RJDC litigation.
• The Chautauqua pilots and other groups are not ALPA members. ALPA could and should use its power to cut them out and direct flying to ALPA members. Again, the more effective ALPA is at this, the more pilots will want to be ALPA members. If Comair was not being systematically replaced by CHQ, much of their "damage" would go away as well.
• By working together ALPA could finally reach its goal of removing pilot wages from the equation of airline success, or failure. But there has to be a fair structure to enable working together.

I expect a compromise somewhere in between.

Wild cards include threats from the Delta MEC to leave ALPA everytime ALPA suggests that they play nice with other MECs. You bring up many excellent points about the difficulty of ALPA politics. The thing is that the Court does not care about ALPA politics and further, ALPA should be run fairly anyway. Threats from 900lb gorillas should not be the reason for throwing 3,500 members under the bus.

Maybe the RJDC just wants its own 900lb gorilla in the form of a damage award to even things out a little. I don't know, I'm just making educated guesses.

 

[737 Pylt]

Wild cards include threats from the Delta MEC to leave ALPA everytime ALPA suggests that they play nice with other MECs.

I'm not sure where you get your information, but it is, at best, rediculous!

Maybe the RJDC just wants its own 900lb gorilla in the form of a damage award to even things out a little. I don't know, I'm just making educated guesses.

Then maybe you should get yourself some education! Every time I read one of your pro rjdc posts, I firmly believe you would not be an asset to the DL pilot group! Go and spew your drivel elsewhere!

737

 

[~~~^~~~]

737Pylt:

Educate me. Why did Capt. Malone get recalled?

We would like better, more accurate, information if you have some.

I encourage you to change my mind if I'm wrong. That is the point of the "drivel" isn't it?

Is it your position that the Delta MEC would invite connection carriers to negotiate scope within the Delta brand? Where was my post incorrect?

 

[737 Pylt]

737Pylt:

Educate me. Why did Capt. Malone get recalled?

We would like better, more accurate, information if you have some.

Capt. Malone didn't get recalled. He was not re elected when his term was up! Now you're educated!

I encourage you to change my mind if I'm wrong. That is the point of the "drivel" isn't it?

So what will it take to change your mind when you completely fabricate information, like your so called "the DL MEC took my pass privileges" story!?

Is it your position that the Delta MEC would invite connection carriers to negotiate scope within the Delta brand? Where was my post incorrect?

I don't know why its so difficult for you to comprehend.....ALL flying done under the DL brand is subject to the DL PWA! One thing you seem to forget, magically, is that you and your cohorts are trying to dissolve scope as we know it! What flying you do is because the DL PWA allows it! If you're not happy about it, then go fly your own EV code!
Again, your attitude is at best, damaging! Why, with all your hatred and disgust toward the DL mec, would you ever want to work here?

737

 

[Jmoney]

Mgmt Construct....

Need I present more proof that the RJDC is just a MGMT tool to jack with ALPA? Divide and conquer....

My main question about the RJDC is what do you guys hope to get out of all this? Seriously? Will we all get paid in gold bricks from this lawsuit? The lawyers ain't making out too badly, but I will bet the farm not one pilot ever sees a dime. If the RJDC gets ALPA to change its bylaws, what would the likely result be?

The answer to that is easy-ALPA would lose at least two major carriers. These guys would drop ALPA like a hot rock and go with some other union-or maybe form internal unions........ What would that do? It would cause ALPA to collapse! Perfect! This is a managment wet dream!!

I am absolutely convinced that some genius in some stank GO at the regional level came up with this idea to destroy ALPA once and for all-and it seems to be working very well.....

-Check it!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It did exhaust those remedies first.

In your or the RJDC opinion...

Then it asked for changes in ALPA's behavior and the sword is the monetary compensation request. I hate that the sword even has to be there, but I guess the philosophy is, "if you have them by the short hairs, their hearts and minds will follow."

Perhaps for the betterment of the Association and the profession is better to realize that your political movement for the minority is damaging to the majority.

In my other career, I have managed almost 100 cases to trial and in 93% the outcome was better than my pre-trial position. My largest cases involved matters which potentially exceeded a billion dollar damage awards (shame I work by the hour and not contingency fee). In my humble, but experienced, opinion as an observer who gets paid to evaluate cases, the RJDC Plaintiffs have an incredibly strong case and even more ALPA faces an uphill battle in a Court system that leans both pro plaintiff and anti union. If this case ever gets heard I expect ALPA to get clocked. The issue will not be the merits of the case, but ALPA's ability to pay (and ALPA's offshore tricks will not help it as much as their politically oriented attorneys have told them)

What are the consequences if the RJDC coalition wins. Are you prepared for the intended AND unintended consequences.

Just look around at what has happened to pilots at ASA and Comair. Subtract that figure from what would have been the likely result of tripartied scope negotiations in 2000, or just in view of the changes from CY96 to CY2000 scope, and you come up with roughly $2 million per pilot. Then you figure a seniority list is a natural class for a similarly situated group in a class action and you are talking some figures well in excess of ALPA's solvency. When Judges ask questions about "Why you have not filed this as a Class Action?" Defendants should take serious notice.

No one wants to admit anyone to the organization who has to sue their way in....

The problem is you guys went for instant gratification looking for immediate results.... thus the lawsuit...

Instead you should have been more patient and looked for reasonable change. Times have changed as you've said and many of the things the RJDC want are being implemeneted... The problem is you infuriate and anger so many pilots and the ALPA leadership..... if you'd been more realistic, patient and pragmatic you'd have been more effective...

If ALPA can buy its way out of that mess by simply providing the full representation that the ASA and Comair pilots are entitled to anyway - why don't they?

Becuase you've pissed off so many people they don't want to deal with you or even listen what you have to say.........

I have painted the nightmare scenario. But that is where this is headed if ALPA does not enact reforms. Lets look at the "opportunities:"

• The SkyWest pilots would benefit from ALPA membership, but do not realize it because ALPA National has done such a poor job for the ASA pilots. ALPA can turn this around by enacting reforms and making promises in writing, just like ALPA did for the FedEx pilots.

Why are the FedEx pilots more effective than ASA?

• ALPA could turn around its' string of representational losses by reforming and fixing the problems that make smaller airlines not want to be ALPA members.

Not wanting to be ALPA is a local issue....

• Once SkyWest is on board, ALPA could negotiate one list for ASA. There goes half of the plaintiffs and probably all the damages of half the natural class in the RJDC litigation.

Has ALPA said they would not? What are the ASA guys doing to ensure SKYW becomes ALPA?

• The Chautauqua pilots and other groups are not ALPA members. ALPA could and should use its power to cut them out and direct flying to ALPA members. Again, the more effective ALPA is at this, the more pilots will want to be ALPA members. If Comair was not being systematically replaced by CHQ, much of their "damage" would go away as well.

How can ALPA cut out CHQ?

By working together ALPA could finally reach its goal of removing pilot wages from the equation of airline success, or failure. But there has to be a fair structure to enable working together.
I expect a compromise somewhere in between.

By sueing?

Wild cards include threats from the Delta MEC to leave ALPA everytime ALPA suggests that they play nice with other MECs. You bring up many excellent points about the difficulty of ALPA politics. The thing is that the Court does not care about ALPA politics and further, ALPA should be run fairly anyway. Threats from 900lb gorillas should not be the reason for throwing 3,500 members under the bus.

Another reason to shun the RJDC....

Maybe the RJDC just wants its own 900lb gorilla in the form of a damage award to even things out a little. I don't know, I'm just making educated guesses.

You wanna play hardball with lawsuits.... bringing a gun to a knife fight....

maybe as a non ASA ALPA pilot I'll politik an ASA pilot clique to go to the next ASA LEC meeting with a C&BL Article VIII resolution to ban the leaders of the RJDC from ever being ALPA members again....

 

[BoilerUP]

For whatever its worth, there seems to be a small but growing movement at RAH to entertain switching to ALPA....a few folks I know there are SUPER pissed off at IBT 747 and their executive council...

 

[737 Pylt]

maybe as a non ASA ALPA pilot I'll politik an ASA pilot clique to go to the next ASA LEC meeting with a C&BL Article VIII resolution to ban the leaders of the RJDC from ever being ALPA members again....

Rez:
I'd join you in that fight! I'd also move to petition to have EVERY single NAMED supporter of the rjdc countersued and expelled from ALPA to recover funds that were exhausted from this frivilous suit that has wasted time and money all for dan and the rest of his jerkoff associates!

737

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez:
I'd join you in that fight! I'd also move to petition to have EVERY single NAMED supporter of the rjdc countersued and expelled from ALPA to recover funds that were exhausted from this frivilous suit that has wasted time and money all for dan and the rest of his jerkoff associates!

737

737-

All is fair in love and war... if the RJDC wants to use lawsuits and legal proceedings to force action and expect the results of that action to be complied with.... then they shall be willing accept the same action against them....and the results of that action shall be complied with by the members of the RJDC...

 

[~~~^~~~]

"I have never advocated war except as a means of peace!"

Something that has never been done: a majority of ALPA pilots participating in their careers. Simple & innovative yet untried.

Yet when pilots get involved, you want them tossed from the union and sued personally for supporting reform.

...and I'm just some guy on a web board, not even a Plaintiff, or a "leader."

You surely must realize that your misguided threats against a guy who simply comments about the merits of the case (and who has no input on what the RJDC does) doesn't make ALPA look very accommodating of minority views. In fact, I think your behavior illustrates why ALPA has a representational problem and why pilots have failed to vote for ALPA representation in their last four votes.

I have been arguing for ALPA on the SkyWest property and for support of ALPA's representational structure on the local level. When others wanted to start a decertification drive, I am the moderate that stood up against it. In many ways I do not like the way the RJDC litigation is going, I had hoped for reform. Since all internal attempts met the same attitudes you exhibit, litigation is the only remaining way to move ALPA towards compliance with its fiduciary duty to its members.

However, continued intransigence, which you so aptly illustrate, is going to result in this being about money. What you failed to consider is that I don’t like that outcome any more than you do. As an ALPA member, I too will pay the price for ALPA’s wrongdoing. As an ASA pilot I simply will get to pay that price, twice. Once with 13 month Captain upgrades at SkyWest on my equipment and the second time with whatever portion of my dues money goes to pay for ALPA's legal settlements. (The last big one went to Delta pilots in the Miller v. ALPA case - BTW)

The only way any of us benefit is for ALPA to reform.

Personally, I would love it if there was no reason for the RJDC to exist and if the RJDC was made irrelevant. But the very fact that ASA is down to one base with Chautauqua, Mesa, Freedom, SkyWest, Comair, Republic, Jet Express performing flying once performed by ASA pilots, with Pinnacle and more Mesa waiting in the wings while ASA's CNC is undermined by ALPA's own predatory bargaining for phantom aircraft reality is more real here on the ramp.