RJDC Litigation Update 06-12-07

[~~~^~~~]

Instead, the RJDC should've used the LEC, MEC, BOD, EC and EB structure to effective positive change...

It did exhaust those remedies first. Then it asked for changes in ALPA's behavior and the sword is the monetary compensation request. I hate that the sword even has to be there, but I guess the philosophy is, "if you have them by the short hairs, their hearts and minds will follow."

In my other career, I have managed almost 100 cases to trial and in 93% the outcome was better than my pre-trial position. My largest cases involved matters which potentially exceeded a billion dollar damage awards (shame I work by the hour and not contingency fee). In my humble, but experienced, opinion as an observer who gets paid to evaluate cases, the RJDC Plaintiffs have an incredibly strong case and even more ALPA faces an uphill battle in a Court system that leans both pro plaintiff and anti union. If this case ever gets heard I expect ALPA to get clocked. The issue will not be the merits of the case, but ALPA's ability to pay (and ALPA's offshore tricks will not help it as much as their politically oriented attorneys have told them)

Just look around at what has happened to pilots at ASA and Comair. Subtract that figure from what would have been the likely result of tripartied scope negotiations in 2000, or just in view of the changes from CY96 to CY2000 scope, and you come up with roughly $2 million per pilot. Then you figure a seniority list is a natural class for a similarly situated group in a class action and you are talking some figures well in excess of ALPA's solvency. When Judges ask questions about "Why you have not filed this as a Class Action?" Defendants should take serious notice.

If ALPA can buy its way out of that mess by simply providing the full representation that the ASA and Comair pilots are entitled to anyway - why don't they?

I have painted the nightmare scenario. But that is where this is headed if ALPA does not enact reforms. Lets look at the "opportunities:"

• The SkyWest pilots would benefit from ALPA membership, but do not realize it because ALPA National has done such a poor job for the ASA pilots. ALPA can turn this around by enacting reforms and making promises in writing, just like ALPA did for the FedEx pilots.
• ALPA could turn around its' string of representational losses by reforming and fixing the problems that make smaller airlines not want to be ALPA members.
• Once SkyWest is on board, ALPA could negotiate one list for ASA. There goes half of the plaintiffs and probably all the damages of half the natural class in the RJDC litigation.
• The Chautauqua pilots and other groups are not ALPA members. ALPA could and should use its power to cut them out and direct flying to ALPA members. Again, the more effective ALPA is at this, the more pilots will want to be ALPA members. If Comair was not being systematically replaced by CHQ, much of their "damage" would go away as well.
• By working together ALPA could finally reach its goal of removing pilot wages from the equation of airline success, or failure. But there has to be a fair structure to enable working together.

I expect a compromise somewhere in between.

Wild cards include threats from the Delta MEC to leave ALPA everytime ALPA suggests that they play nice with other MECs. You bring up many excellent points about the difficulty of ALPA politics. The thing is that the Court does not care about ALPA politics and further, ALPA should be run fairly anyway. Threats from 900lb gorillas should not be the reason for throwing 3,500 members under the bus.

Maybe the RJDC just wants its own 900lb gorilla in the form of a damage award to even things out a little. I don't know, I'm just making educated guesses.

 

[737 Pylt]

Wild cards include threats from the Delta MEC to leave ALPA everytime ALPA suggests that they play nice with other MECs.

I'm not sure where you get your information, but it is, at best, rediculous!

Maybe the RJDC just wants its own 900lb gorilla in the form of a damage award to even things out a little. I don't know, I'm just making educated guesses.

Then maybe you should get yourself some education! Every time I read one of your pro rjdc posts, I firmly believe you would not be an asset to the DL pilot group! Go and spew your drivel elsewhere!

737

 

[~~~^~~~]

737Pylt:

Educate me. Why did Capt. Malone get recalled?

We would like better, more accurate, information if you have some.

I encourage you to change my mind if I'm wrong. That is the point of the "drivel" isn't it?

Is it your position that the Delta MEC would invite connection carriers to negotiate scope within the Delta brand? Where was my post incorrect?

 

[737 Pylt]

737Pylt:

Educate me. Why did Capt. Malone get recalled?

We would like better, more accurate, information if you have some.

Capt. Malone didn't get recalled. He was not re elected when his term was up! Now you're educated!

I encourage you to change my mind if I'm wrong. That is the point of the "drivel" isn't it?

So what will it take to change your mind when you completely fabricate information, like your so called "the DL MEC took my pass privileges" story!?

Is it your position that the Delta MEC would invite connection carriers to negotiate scope within the Delta brand? Where was my post incorrect?

I don't know why its so difficult for you to comprehend.....ALL flying done under the DL brand is subject to the DL PWA! One thing you seem to forget, magically, is that you and your cohorts are trying to dissolve scope as we know it! What flying you do is because the DL PWA allows it! If you're not happy about it, then go fly your own EV code!
Again, your attitude is at best, damaging! Why, with all your hatred and disgust toward the DL mec, would you ever want to work here?

737

 

[Jmoney]

Mgmt Construct....

Need I present more proof that the RJDC is just a MGMT tool to jack with ALPA? Divide and conquer....

My main question about the RJDC is what do you guys hope to get out of all this? Seriously? Will we all get paid in gold bricks from this lawsuit? The lawyers ain't making out too badly, but I will bet the farm not one pilot ever sees a dime. If the RJDC gets ALPA to change its bylaws, what would the likely result be?

The answer to that is easy-ALPA would lose at least two major carriers. These guys would drop ALPA like a hot rock and go with some other union-or maybe form internal unions........ What would that do? It would cause ALPA to collapse! Perfect! This is a managment wet dream!!

I am absolutely convinced that some genius in some stank GO at the regional level came up with this idea to destroy ALPA once and for all-and it seems to be working very well.....

-Check it!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It did exhaust those remedies first.

In your or the RJDC opinion...

Then it asked for changes in ALPA's behavior and the sword is the monetary compensation request. I hate that the sword even has to be there, but I guess the philosophy is, "if you have them by the short hairs, their hearts and minds will follow."

Perhaps for the betterment of the Association and the profession is better to realize that your political movement for the minority is damaging to the majority.

In my other career, I have managed almost 100 cases to trial and in 93% the outcome was better than my pre-trial position. My largest cases involved matters which potentially exceeded a billion dollar damage awards (shame I work by the hour and not contingency fee). In my humble, but experienced, opinion as an observer who gets paid to evaluate cases, the RJDC Plaintiffs have an incredibly strong case and even more ALPA faces an uphill battle in a Court system that leans both pro plaintiff and anti union. If this case ever gets heard I expect ALPA to get clocked. The issue will not be the merits of the case, but ALPA's ability to pay (and ALPA's offshore tricks will not help it as much as their politically oriented attorneys have told them)

What are the consequences if the RJDC coalition wins. Are you prepared for the intended AND unintended consequences.

Just look around at what has happened to pilots at ASA and Comair. Subtract that figure from what would have been the likely result of tripartied scope negotiations in 2000, or just in view of the changes from CY96 to CY2000 scope, and you come up with roughly $2 million per pilot. Then you figure a seniority list is a natural class for a similarly situated group in a class action and you are talking some figures well in excess of ALPA's solvency. When Judges ask questions about "Why you have not filed this as a Class Action?" Defendants should take serious notice.

No one wants to admit anyone to the organization who has to sue their way in....

The problem is you guys went for instant gratification looking for immediate results.... thus the lawsuit...

Instead you should have been more patient and looked for reasonable change. Times have changed as you've said and many of the things the RJDC want are being implemeneted... The problem is you infuriate and anger so many pilots and the ALPA leadership..... if you'd been more realistic, patient and pragmatic you'd have been more effective...

If ALPA can buy its way out of that mess by simply providing the full representation that the ASA and Comair pilots are entitled to anyway - why don't they?

Becuase you've pissed off so many people they don't want to deal with you or even listen what you have to say.........

I have painted the nightmare scenario. But that is where this is headed if ALPA does not enact reforms. Lets look at the "opportunities:"

• The SkyWest pilots would benefit from ALPA membership, but do not realize it because ALPA National has done such a poor job for the ASA pilots. ALPA can turn this around by enacting reforms and making promises in writing, just like ALPA did for the FedEx pilots.

Why are the FedEx pilots more effective than ASA?

• ALPA could turn around its' string of representational losses by reforming and fixing the problems that make smaller airlines not want to be ALPA members.

Not wanting to be ALPA is a local issue....

• Once SkyWest is on board, ALPA could negotiate one list for ASA. There goes half of the plaintiffs and probably all the damages of half the natural class in the RJDC litigation.

Has ALPA said they would not? What are the ASA guys doing to ensure SKYW becomes ALPA?

• The Chautauqua pilots and other groups are not ALPA members. ALPA could and should use its power to cut them out and direct flying to ALPA members. Again, the more effective ALPA is at this, the more pilots will want to be ALPA members. If Comair was not being systematically replaced by CHQ, much of their "damage" would go away as well.

How can ALPA cut out CHQ?

By working together ALPA could finally reach its goal of removing pilot wages from the equation of airline success, or failure. But there has to be a fair structure to enable working together.
I expect a compromise somewhere in between.

By sueing?

Wild cards include threats from the Delta MEC to leave ALPA everytime ALPA suggests that they play nice with other MECs. You bring up many excellent points about the difficulty of ALPA politics. The thing is that the Court does not care about ALPA politics and further, ALPA should be run fairly anyway. Threats from 900lb gorillas should not be the reason for throwing 3,500 members under the bus.

Another reason to shun the RJDC....

Maybe the RJDC just wants its own 900lb gorilla in the form of a damage award to even things out a little. I don't know, I'm just making educated guesses.

You wanna play hardball with lawsuits.... bringing a gun to a knife fight....

maybe as a non ASA ALPA pilot I'll politik an ASA pilot clique to go to the next ASA LEC meeting with a C&BL Article VIII resolution to ban the leaders of the RJDC from ever being ALPA members again....

 

[BoilerUP]

For whatever its worth, there seems to be a small but growing movement at RAH to entertain switching to ALPA....a few folks I know there are SUPER pissed off at IBT 747 and their executive council...

 

[737 Pylt]

maybe as a non ASA ALPA pilot I'll politik an ASA pilot clique to go to the next ASA LEC meeting with a C&BL Article VIII resolution to ban the leaders of the RJDC from ever being ALPA members again....

Rez:
I'd join you in that fight! I'd also move to petition to have EVERY single NAMED supporter of the rjdc countersued and expelled from ALPA to recover funds that were exhausted from this frivilous suit that has wasted time and money all for dan and the rest of his jerkoff associates!

737

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez:
I'd join you in that fight! I'd also move to petition to have EVERY single NAMED supporter of the rjdc countersued and expelled from ALPA to recover funds that were exhausted from this frivilous suit that has wasted time and money all for dan and the rest of his jerkoff associates!

737

737-

All is fair in love and war... if the RJDC wants to use lawsuits and legal proceedings to force action and expect the results of that action to be complied with.... then they shall be willing accept the same action against them....and the results of that action shall be complied with by the members of the RJDC...

 

[~~~^~~~]

"I have never advocated war except as a means of peace!"

Something that has never been done: a majority of ALPA pilots participating in their careers. Simple & innovative yet untried.

Yet when pilots get involved, you want them tossed from the union and sued personally for supporting reform.

...and I'm just some guy on a web board, not even a Plaintiff, or a "leader."

You surely must realize that your misguided threats against a guy who simply comments about the merits of the case (and who has no input on what the RJDC does) doesn't make ALPA look very accommodating of minority views. In fact, I think your behavior illustrates why ALPA has a representational problem and why pilots have failed to vote for ALPA representation in their last four votes.

I have been arguing for ALPA on the SkyWest property and for support of ALPA's representational structure on the local level. When others wanted to start a decertification drive, I am the moderate that stood up against it. In many ways I do not like the way the RJDC litigation is going, I had hoped for reform. Since all internal attempts met the same attitudes you exhibit, litigation is the only remaining way to move ALPA towards compliance with its fiduciary duty to its members.

However, continued intransigence, which you so aptly illustrate, is going to result in this being about money. What you failed to consider is that I don’t like that outcome any more than you do. As an ALPA member, I too will pay the price for ALPA’s wrongdoing. As an ASA pilot I simply will get to pay that price, twice. Once with 13 month Captain upgrades at SkyWest on my equipment and the second time with whatever portion of my dues money goes to pay for ALPA's legal settlements. (The last big one went to Delta pilots in the Miller v. ALPA case - BTW)

The only way any of us benefit is for ALPA to reform.

Personally, I would love it if there was no reason for the RJDC to exist and if the RJDC was made irrelevant. But the very fact that ASA is down to one base with Chautauqua, Mesa, Freedom, SkyWest, Comair, Republic, Jet Express performing flying once performed by ASA pilots, with Pinnacle and more Mesa waiting in the wings while ASA's CNC is undermined by ALPA's own predatory bargaining for phantom aircraft reality is more real here on the ramp.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You are misguided. It isn't my RJDC, or my Lawsuit. Why are you attacking me?

You seem to be championing their cause right nicely...

Yet when pilots take your advice, you want them tossed from the union and sued personally for supporting reform.

Please Fins... I never advocated sueing ALPA becuase no one agrees with a position....

It happens all the time in a democratic society. A motion, resolution or even free discussion is raised. the majority reject it. That means it is over. Or time to find a new arguement. it doesn't mean lawsuit....

If we had pilots sueing over every pet issue we could never deal with the real internal problems....we'd be bogged down in our own organization

Jeesh, glad I'm only a guy on a web board who has a different view than you do.

Difference of opinion is fine. in fact welcomed. Debate helps progress. But the RJDC takes it past debate. You've taken hard core destructive action and now that a "response in kind" is being suggested you are getting defensive...

Do you honestly expect to sue ALPA and not get resistance.. reprecussions? Did you not consider that by bringing a gun [aka lawsuit] to a knife fight that someone might go out to their truck and get their gun?

But your juvenile threats don't do much to advance your cause.

Juvenile threats? See... it is ok for the RJDC to sue but if a member uses the legitamite process of ALPA C&BL to article VIII a RJDC pilot then is wrong or juvinile or negative? Another double standard and hyprocasy....[sp]

If you honestly think you are doing "gods" work...then why aren't you accepted by the majority?

As for the information about Malone. Thanks, that is different than the version I heard.

no comment as I am not party........

 

[PCL_128]

maybe as a non ASA ALPA pilot I'll politik an ASA pilot clique to go to the next ASA LEC meeting with a C&BL Article VIII resolution to ban the leaders of the RJDC from ever being ALPA members again....

Please do! But don't limit it to the named litigants; everyone who has been an open advocate of this organization or the lawsuit should be expelled from the Association as soon as this is dismissed on summary judgment.

Yes, that means you too, Joe!

 

[~~~^~~~]

You seem to be championing their cause right nicely...

You've taken hard core destructive action and now that a "response in kind" is being suggested you are getting defensive...

Do you honestly expect to sue ALPA and not get resistance.. reprecussions?

Juvenile threats? See... it is ok for the RJDC to sue but if a member uses the legitamite process of ALPA C&BL to article VIII a RJDC pilot then is wrong or juvinile or negative? Another double standard and hyprocasy....[sp]

If you honestly think you are doing "gods" work...then why aren't you accepted by the majority?

What is with "You, You, You?" Do people sue the weatherman because he reports it is raining? It is not my lawsuit. If I happen to "champion the cause" then accuse me of an editorial slant. As for "hard core destructive action" please tell all of us what I have done. Has my writing actually resulted in anything other than making you mad?

Your threat to go after anyone who ever said anything nice about Dan Ford, Ken Cooksey, or the other Plaintiffs is so rediculous that it hardly bears comment. Sue their mothers and me too for all I care. I will be pleased to accept service at my office, or at work, saving you the $90 on the Process Server. Talk about a frivolous action.

And an Article VIII motion - you are not the first Cowboy to think of that. This rodeo has been going on for seven long years now. But who else do you propose to kick out? We have one EVP who sued ALPA on a DFR claim, another very close to home who brought a resolution to the floor critical of Delta's bargaining on phantom aircraft and a whole bunch of Delta pilots who sued ALPA and got a big settlement. As for Joe, he might not even mind getting booted.

As for minority rights and doing "God's work" I am no messiah. I'm not even Michael Boyd. But the majority killed Jesus, in case you forgot.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Maybe tonight I just caught you guys after your 5th beer. Cheers.

 

[737 Pylt]

Yet when pilots get involved, you want them tossed from the union and sued personally for supporting reform.

Isn't the rjdc suiing my union? Yep, you want to bankrupt my union for no other reason than to benefit financially, you deserved to be sued, and tossed!

...and I'm just some guy on a web board, not even a Plaintiff, or a "leader."

Yet you seem to be so well versed in their cause.....Are you a sympathizer then?

You surely must realize that your misguided threats against a guy who simply comments about the merits of the case (and who has no input on what the RJDC does) doesn't make ALPA look very accommodating of minority views.

Threats?? Is this the same filter that you use to post that John Malone was recalled, or that your pass privileges were revoked because of the evil DMEC?

In fact, I think your behavior illustrates why ALPA has a representational problem and why pilots have failed to vote for ALPA representation in their last four votes.

My behavior is just trying to stop a bunch of undesirables in the industry with dui's and no college from stealing my flying and abbrogating my contract!

I have been arguing for ALPA on the SkyWest property and for support of ALPA's representational structure on the local level. When others wanted to start a decertification drive, I am the moderate that stood up against it. In many ways I do not like the way the RJDC litigation is going, I had hoped for reform.

In the form of no less than $2 million per pilot, and $100 million in punitive damages!?

Since all internal attempts met the same attitudes you exhibit, litigation is the only remaining way to move ALPA towards compliance with its fiduciary duty to its members.

[sarcasm]Ok then, I hate the Iraq war, I'm going to sue my government! [/sarcasm] You guys are so pathetic!

However, continued intransigence, which you so aptly illustrate, is going to result in this being about money. What you failed to consider is that I don’t like that outcome any more than you do. As an ALPA member, I too will pay the price for ALPA’s wrongdoing. As an ASA pilot I simply will get to pay that price, twice. Once with 13 month Captain upgrades at SkyWest on my equipment and the second time with whatever portion of my dues money goes to pay for ALPA's legal settlements. (The last big one went to Delta pilots in the Miller v. ALPA case - BTW)

The only real winners ever seem to be are the lawyers......How's haber doing these days??

The only way any of us benefit is for ALPA to reform.

That's the only statement you typed that I can agree with.
Your answer seems the shotgun attempt! Don't like the way things are going, then just sue!
Again, I just don't understand why you would want to work with these evil DL pilots with all that vitrol you spew. Experience aside, and I know you possess it, I just don't know how you'd fit in here. I mean, who would you force all your blame on for all your issues?!
Rant over,
737