RJDC Litigation Update 06-12-07

[Occam's Razor]

Perfect!

You recognize that pilot groups take actions for self-protection...and admit you do it too. But you support lawsuits attacking other pilot groups that protect themselves from...(this is the best part!)...YOU!

Double Standard, thy name is "Joe Merchant"!

 

[JoeMerchant]

Perfect!

You recognize that pilot groups take actions for self-protection...and admit you do it too. But you support lawsuits attacking other pilot groups that protect themselves from...(this is the best part!)...YOU!

Double Standard, thy name is "Joe Merchant"!

No Occam, I am just doing what most other airline pilots are doing.... we would be better off if we had "brand scope" and actually looked out for each other, but that won't happen...... If ALPA insists on continuing with this "us vs. them" form of scope... then expect more of the same...

I'm not expecting much to change.... look at the USAirways/AWA debates.... they make RJDC seem like a picnic....

 

[JoeMerchant]

RJDC- The needs of few outweigh the needs of the many...

As opposed to "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"?

1. I don't think the "many" are being served well by ALPA's current approach to scope. The mainline groups have lost around 12000 jobs since 911, and the regionals are bidding against one another..... nobody is really winning with the current approach...

2. Do you really expect the "few" to just allow the "many" to dictate things? The "many" can do what they want, but they shouldn't be surprised when the "few" fight back.....

 

[Occam's Razor]

No Occam, I am just doing what most other airline pilots are doing....

Huh? Most other airline pilots are suing ALPA for the right to do fellow-pilots flying for less?

Got it!

Now...prove that "most other airline pilots" are suing ALPA over Scope, or trot your hyperbole-infested generalizations somewhere else.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Huh? Most other airline pilots are suing ALPA for the right to do fellow-pilots flying for less?

Got it!

Now...prove that "most other airline pilots" are suing ALPA over Scope, or trot your hyperbole-infested generalizations somewhere else.

Occam,

Actually Haber is quite busy.... he has ASA, CMR, PDT, ALG, PSA, TWA, and USAir pilots for clients...

Lawsuits aside, the Compass and MidAtlantic agreements were harmful to the regionals in terms of pattern bargaining. Hard for us to push for more money when our mainline brothers are undercutting us in 70-90 seat market. Mainline calls it "recapturing the flying". Never the less, it was done with the interests of mainline pilots in mind, not the interests of the regional pilots..

How about the bargaining credits mainline pilots get when the allow competition to drive down the cost of regional feed?

How about the age 60 debate.... plenty of "what's in it for me".....

AWA/US Air.... it's all about me...............

Plenty of it going around in ALPA...... lawsuits or not......

 

[Occam's Razor]

Dude! According to your mantra...it's all about you. So please spare me the chaff, and take some personal accountability. This case...right now. Greedy whiney victims!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

As opposed to "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"?

Ugh... yeah Joe... if you have to make a decision are you going to choose the one the screws more or less people.....

1. I don't think the "many" are being served well by ALPA's current approach to scope.

Then run for election and make positive change.... fact is you can't. You can get your own people to listen to you..so you go underground and radical... persona non grata...

The mainline groups have lost around 12000 jobs since 911, and the regionals are bidding against one another..... nobody is really winning with the current approach...

And your solution: a lawsuit...

Joe... why? why do you do this to yourself and all of us...

2. Do you really expect the "few" to just allow the "many" to dictate things?

In a democratic organization: YES! What do you suggest? Besides your radical action. Joe you are a union terrorist...

Get over it Joe.... the majority do not want you.

The "many" can do what they want, but they shouldn't be surprised when the "few" fight back.....

You mean when a few sue back. Whatever Joe.... you are simply deadweight that will be cut free...its too bad you hindered progress cause we could've been so much futher down the road without your version of a whiney, pouty five year old demanding we stop at South of the Border on I-95

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

bravehart and/or Joe M.

What is the position of the RJDC being counter-sued? In theroy.....

 

[737 Pylt]

You sidestepped the question which is par for the course with you...

Its better than putting it through the rjdc filter!

Again, what does a reserve 767 captain make at Delta acarpe... you are proud... so tell us..... Quit being a chicken$hit and answer the question acarpe......

Speaking of chicken$hit, how's dan and jessee doing?
The pay for a DL 767 12 year captain is $157.62/hr for a 70 hour guarantee. If he/she is international category, there's a $5/hr override for all international flying!

By the way acarpe, we don't have any scope at the regional level, so what do I care if it all goes away.... it isn't helping me anyway....

Then why do you cry your whiny dumbass about the DL portfolio? You know the one where you complain about CHQ, MESA, Jet link, Freedom, Republic?
Oh that's right, because not one of you jerkoff's can't tell the truth!
So what does an rjdc elected official make? Or is your pay based off your worthless lawsuit that costs my union money?

737

 

[Sig]

Besides your radical action. Joe you are a union terrorist...

LOUD NOISES!

Wait, that's me in absolute tears over that statement. Union terrorist? Shyt, let's appoint him to the vaunted VP of CashMoney- if Joe's a card-carrying terrorist, he's certainly petered over Beebe.

 

[FightingIrish]

There are many at ASA that admire what Joe has to say. At least someone has the stones to tell it like it is.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I think even my adversarial friends at the majors would admit ALPA has conflicts of interest that it has allowed to grow into double standards. There are multiple tiers of "representation" that ALPA members recieve, depending on where they work.

ALPA was against scope at any of the wholly owned Regionals because ALPA did not want a Regional MEC to negotiate a deal that in any way bound a Mainline MEC. ALPA's view has always been that regionals do not own flying.

The problem is that mainline pilots generally do not care what happens to the flying once it gets outsourced. In fact, some pilots feel the more cheaply it can be done, the better.

The airlines most effected by ALPA's scope position were the wholly owned regional subsidiaries of Major airlines who used to enjoy nearly 100% of their major partner's business. Now all of the flying once performed by airlines like ASA and Comair have been put out to bid.

The RJDC's fight has been to correct ALPA's representational double standard. Many of us believe that this is a profession and we can only raise the profession by ensuring our least powerful members are brought to a professional standard. We are all Air Line Pilots.

The RJDC believes that scope which involves all the ALPA members performing flying within the brand will be stronger than one group negotiating to harm other ALPA members. It makes sense.

Once the Delta pilots decided to outsource flying, why shouldn't the Comair, or ASA pilots be allowed to negotiate scope to prevent that flying from being sent to SkyWest and Chautauqua?

ALPA has negotiated scope in such a way that members at my airline have been excluded from the process. Scope does need to be re-negotiated - to make it stronger.

You know - if ALPA ever is going to really "Take it Back" they are going to have to include the Rj drivers in the negotiations. The truth is, the RJDC's positions are being slowly adopted by ALPA national (refer to Holding Company LOAs) It is too late to change the outcome at carriers like mine, but I recognize and applaud positive change when I see it.

Complete renegotiation of scope is probably not going to happen now - but remember when the suit was typed up all three carriers were owned by Delta and all three were in section 6 negotiations with the same bargaining agent and same owner. Much has changed since then.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Nice Try Fins...

Whatever the RJDC wants on paper is different from what they want in thier actions.

The RJDC is a divisive group. It doesn't seek the high road. It is simply a sibling yelling at another sibling..to stop yelling.

The RJDC has built walls and placed cannons in position. That is it.

If the RJDC wanted to stop the scope violations of mainline onto the regionals then it would take another path....

some considerations... until your movement is accepted by the majority is the RJDC willing to [continue] to freefall into the abyss of dis-unity and ineffectiveness.

The RJDC is a local issue. A DAL brand issue. Until your efforts are agreed upon by UAL, NWA, AAA and CAL brands then it remains local. But yet the RJDC actions effect all ALPA pilots.

The RJDC rather should have come up with a better acronym that addresses the real issues.. Brand Scope....not trying to carve out your own piece of the holy land.... You guys are the Hamas of Air Line Pilots....

But it is too late.... the crime is in progress and to say "oops sorry, forget the armed intervention, bombings and hostages, we made a mistake and would like to reapproach this issue from a working-together stand point"....

I know I know... you tired to deal with the DAL MEC and National and they shunned you.... and they bear some responsibility for that... but maybe there are no statesmen in the RJDC..just pissed off radicals....with skewed expectations....

I really wish though the RJDC could find away to make thier issues workable...

 

[~~~^~~~]

Nice Try Fins...

It is simply a sibling yelling at another sibling..to stop yelling.

I really wish though the RJDC could find away to make thier issues workable...

Your post was really good.

The RJDC litigation is a paternity suit. It is looking for ALPA to recognize ALPA members as their own and then live up to the responsibilities of caring for them just like ALPA's other children are cared for. Admittedly the RJDC is a "problem child" with issues, but its members are still members of the family.

"Brand Scope" is a solution, but not the only solution. The RJDC's idea was to fix the representational problem, then allow the actual elected representatives to do their job. This does effect all ALPA members, including those in the service of the US Air and Northwest brands.

The RJDC can not really force workable solutions. Only ALPA can. The RJDC does not "represent" pilots, ALPA does. But to represent pilots effectively there has to be a balance of powers and a judiciary in ALPA. ALPA has to have a Constitutional structure which allows for MEC's to sort out their problems internally and which protects minority members from predatory actions by larger (or better connected) groups with the goal of improving our profession together.

ALPA effectively locked my MEC out of negotiations which could have prevented the harm ASA pilots are suffering. The RJDC has the tool to blow the locks off the door.

Of course fighting for change is going to get the "terrorist" label thrown at you. But to the British, Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson were "terrorists," so was Martin Luthur King. As a very young child I remember my Dad and Uncle calling King a "troublemaker." So be it. History remembers him differently.

Like most folks who fight for change, the leadership of the RJDC is not likely to be thought of fondly in their own time. But as you well pointed out, truth resonates with people and eventually become populism. ALPA has adopted much of the RJDC's platform and I hope it continues in that direction. Also, many of us are either on board, or getting on board at legacy carriers and can begin to teach others that scope solutions which capitalize on ALPA National's ability to reach across MEC lines are not a threat to mainline pilots. In fact, a more inclusive representative structure makes us stronger.

Then, just as you pointed out, what once appeared radical just seems like a good idea once everyone understands that "working together" does not mean giving in to the enemy.

Candidly, even as a RJDC supporter, I wish there were not some of the requests for relief that are contained in the litigation. I completely understand why they have to be there, but now that the harm to ASA and Comair is already underway I think the unsavory bits of the relief are all that is left. I don't know that ALPA will ever have the opportunities it had in 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2004, or 2006 to fix the scope issue.

And for the disclaimer - I don't speak for the RJDC and am not authorized to do so. They write their own stuff. I'm not a Plaintiff.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The RJDC litigation is a paternity suit. It is looking for ALPA to recognize ALPA members as their own and then live up to the responsibilities of caring for them just like ALPA's other children are cared for. Admittedly the RJDC is a "problem child" with issues, but its members are still members of the family.

Agreed...but do you think sueing your mother anr/or father will get family acceptance? meanwhile the RJDC is alienating its other siblings...

"Brand Scope" is a solution, but not the only solution. The RJDC's idea was to fix the representational problem, then allow the actual elected representatives to do their job. This does effect all ALPA members, including those in the service of the US Air and Northwest brands.

Agreed there are lots of ways to fix problems. Another problem.. the AAA, NWA, UAL brands aren't on board with your efforts and most important the RJDC methodologies...

The RJDC can not really force workable solutions. Only ALPA can.

Agreed. the trick is to influence ALPA to agree to your problem and become an advocate of the RJDC's issues. Not an adversary. And thus.. is ALPA's role, delima (sp), quandry on CapHill.

Do you think ALPA would be effective if it started sueing the industry organizations?

The RJDC does not "represent" pilots, ALPA does. But to represent pilots effectively there has to be a balance of powers and a judiciary in ALPA. ALPA has to have a Constitutional structure which allows for MEC's to sort out their problems internally and which protects minority members from predatory actions by larger (or better connected) groups with the goal of improving our profession together.

I like the fact that you have a solution. Most guys are great problem identifiers (or complainers) but offer no solutions.

However, I don't see a judicary branch of ALPA as progressive. Rather, if we had a "Great Unifier" that brought the MEC's together...to the point where the DAL MEC would say "I empathize with the ASA and CMR MEC's and those pilots, how can we help?"

Idealisitc? Maybe.. but is the current system working? Is the RJDC working?

(the great unifier would be the president or his designee)

ALPA effectively locked my MEC out of negotiations which could have prevented the harm ASA pilots are suffering. The RJDC has the tool to blow the locks off the door.

You can't control people's mind. You might blow off the locks but the minds of the DAL MEC and National will still be adversarial. Instead the goal is to convince the DAL MEC and National to want to work toward the goals of the RJDC.

That of course takes a unique individual(s).....

Of course fighting for change is going to get the "terrorist" label thrown at you. But to the British, Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson were "terrorists," so was Martin Luthur King. As a very young child I remember my Dad and Uncle calling King a "troublemaker." So be it. History remembers him differently.

If you've got a vision... go for it.... but be prepared for history's judgement..

Like most folks who fight for change, the leadership of the RJDC is not likely to be thought of fondly in their own time. But as you well pointed out, truth resonates with people and eventually become populism. ALPA has adopted much of the RJDC's platform and I hope it continues in that direction. Also, many of us are either on board, or getting on board at legacy carriers and can begin to teach others that scope solutions which capitalize on ALPA National's ability to reach across MEC lines are not a threat to mainline pilots. In fact, a more inclusive representative structure makes us stronger.

And think how much further you'd be if you weren't adversarial...

Then, just as you pointed out, what once appeared radical just seems like a good idea once everyone understands that "working together" does not mean giving in to the enemy.

I agree there is merit to the RJDC... it's methodologies are quite lacking, divisive and regressive...

Instead, the RJDC should've used the LEC, MEC, BOD, EC and EB structure to effective positive change...