RJDC Litigation Update 06-12-07

[PCL_128]

Perfect scope is all Delta flying done by Delta pilots. This could have been achieved with ALPA's support for a PID when Delta acquired the airlines performing Connection flying in 1999 and 2000. (Inclusive Scope)

No it couldn't. None of the affected contracts required a merger. You can file PIDs until you're blue in the face, but management doesn't have to merge the lists unless your CBA requires it. I agree that the best scope would be all DAL flying performed by DAL pilots, but getting to a single list at this point is all but impossible. How do you handle Mesa, CHQ, and PCL, which all fly DAL feed but also fly feed for other carriers?

Not as good scope would be ALPA negotiating scope which would have limited Delta flying to Delta, Comair and ASA. Scope which limited outsourcing to non-Delta, non-ALPA, pilots. (again, Inclusive Scope)

That would certainly be better scope, but that scope "excludes" other ALPA members at carriers other than CMR and ASA. The problem with the lawsuit is that it requests an end to all scope that places limits on other ALPA carriers. That means that any scope that "excludes" PCL, MAG, or any other ALPA carrier in favor of CMR and ASA would not be allowed under the terms of the litigation's requested relief.

Not as good as that scope, would be scope negotiations which at least allowed ASA and Comair pilots to represent their pilots to their Master, which in this case is Delta. (sort of Inclusive Scope, at least those affected ALPA members are invited to the table)

This, by far, is the most absurd demand that the RJDC has made since the beginning. You work for ASA, not Delta. Demanding to negotiate with Delta management is simply ridiculous. If you want your issues to be heard by Delta management, then I suggest building a better relationship with the DAL MEC and have them carry your issues to management. (hint: building a better relationship with the DAL MEC requires you to stop acting like a union terrorist with this lawsuit)

Even less effective scope would be a holding company letter. (Exclusive Scope)

Are you referring to a letter with Delta?

No scope is "scope" achieved by underbidding other pilots for the work. (Exclusive Scope)

Right now we are in the "no scope" zone. To re-create better scope it would be necessary to first wipe the slate clean and bring the parties to the table to re-negotiate scope which includes all the involved parties.

Now events may have eclipsed the relief section that was drafted 7 years ago. Back then 10 Connection carriers was the nightmare scenario. Obviously now there are other ALPA members that would be negatively effected and I'm not sure a ASA new hire is in any different position than a Mesa / Freedom new hire who does Connection flying.

That's your biggest problem now. It's impossible for you to now get any sort of palatable resolution out of this lawsuit. You can't restrict all DCI flying to only CMR and ASA because ALPA members from other airlines would be "excluded." You also can't eliminate DAL scope because then DAL would just outsource flying of even bigger jets to your competitors who will do the flying for less than you will. You can't win in this situation. Your best strategy is to build a relationship with the DAL MEC so that mutual solutions can eventually be worked on. The first step is to put an end to this ridiculous lawsuit and organization.

The RJDC has never published their version of idea scope.

Of course not, because they were never interested in "inclusive" scope. They were interested in three things: a seniority windfall, a massive cash settlement, and revenge against the DAL pilots who they perceive as their enemies. That's all this has ever been about to "PETER PAN" and his ilk. You've just been sucked into it because you truly want to see ALPA better itself. This isn't the way to make ALPA better. You'll realize that eventually.

You who see yourself as true blue ALPA patriots do not seem to ever realize that the RJDC has never supported decertification, has supported ALPA in representational votes and has looked to ALPA's leadership to negotiate scope on behalf of its pilots.

"TINKERBELL" herself "CAPTAIN HOOK " has been on this board trying to tell the Skywest pilots not to certify ALPA. How is that "supporting ALPA representational votes?" "THE LOST BOYS" has done the same and has been very active in trying to get a decertification effort going at ASA. Granted, he isn't a named litigant or RJDC officer, but he is at the forefront of the RJDC movement. I've never seen anything magnanimous from Dan and his crew, and his bad reputation precedes him in ALPA circles.

The RJDC litigation seeks to have the red headed stepchildren treated like the fair headed wonders. We want to be included in the family and treated like the other kids.

The RJDC seeks a seniority grab, a bunch of money, and revenge. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[~~~^~~~]

This, by far, is the most absurd demand that the RJDC has made since the beginning. You work for ASA, not Delta. Demanding to negotiate with Delta management is simply ridiculous. If you want your issues to be heard by Delta management, then I suggest building a better relationship with the DAL MEC and have them carry your issues to management. (hint: building a better relationship with the DAL MEC requires you to stop acting like a union terrorist with this lawsuit)

But this is "Brand Scope" by ALPA's own definition and Comair just did it with ALPA's support. Even ALPA is coming around on this.

We agree on my greatest concern about this litigation. I too am coming to the opinion that ALPA will not reform. Its' intransigence will result in a loss which awards a large settlement to a handful of Plaintiffs. You are correct that the situation at DCI has deteriorated to the point where it probably can't be fixed, which is exactly what documents the Plaintiff's damage claims.

Couple of other minor points:

I don't think "Braveheart" is Capt. Ford. Also, he had an excellent reputation prior to his effort to reform ALPA. Had ALPA not taken action which resulted in his flying being redistributed to 10 cut rate competitors while locking his Reps out of scope negotiations he would have remained a safety nerd.

A seniority list across companies within a brand is possible. Look at all the variations of seniority lists ALPA negotiated on the US Air property. Look at the Republic, MidAtlantic, Chautaqua, Shuttle America single list. I'm not saying that should serve as a model, but Pinnacle, SkyWest and Mesa already have preferred deals at DAL that was negotiated by the DAL MEC.

There is precedent and a general trend already. Brand Scope would take National leadership and something to make the mainline guys want it too. A carrot, a stick, I don't know....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

but management doesn't have to

Stop right there. Readers..... soak this in for a minute. With the RLA, current administration and political environement..... management doesn't have to do anything....

They have lawyers telling them how to get our of current CBA's and they certainly don't have to agree to a National Single list, National Pay rates.. Brand seniority lists... The traveling public wants to show up at the airport and fly to point B. they don't want labor issues.....

That would certainly be better scope, but that scope "excludes" other ALPA members at carriers other than CMR and ASA. The problem with the lawsuit is that it requests an end to all scope that places limits on other ALPA carriers. That means that any scope that "excludes" PCL, MAG, or any other ALPA carrier in favor of CMR and ASA would not be allowed under the terms of the litigation's requested relief.

Does that mean that the pilots of MAG, PCL or other ALPA carriers can sue the RJDC for the same reason the RJDC is sueing ALPA?

This, by far, is the most absurd demand that the RJDC has made since the beginning. You work for ASA, not Delta. Demanding to negotiate with Delta management is simply ridiculous. If you want your issues to be heard by Delta management, then I suggest building a better relationship with the DAL MEC and have them carry your issues to management. (hint: building a better relationship with the DAL MEC requires you to stop acting like a union terrorist with this lawsuit)

Exactly.... it is like sueing the US Gov't for the bahavior of a foreign state.

That's your biggest problem now. It's impossible for you to now get any sort of palatable resolution out of this lawsuit. You can't restrict all DCI flying to only CMR and ASA because ALPA members from other airlines would be "excluded." You also can't eliminate DAL scope because then DAL would just outsource flying of even bigger jets to your competitors who will do the flying for less than you will. You can't win in this situation. Your best strategy is to build a relationship with the DAL MEC so that mutual solutions can eventually be worked on. The first step is to put an end to this ridiculous lawsuit and organization.

Well said....

Of course not, because they were never interested in "inclusive" scope. They were interested in three things: a seniority windfall, a massive cash settlement, and revenge against the DAL pilots who they perceive as their enemies. That's all this has ever been about to Dan and his ilk. You've just been sucked into it because you truly want to see ALPA better itself. This isn't the way to make ALPA better. You'll realize that eventually.

Well said...

Dan Ford himself (Braveheart) has been on this board trying to tell the Skywest pilots not to certify ALPA. How is that "supporting ALPA representational votes?" Johnny has done the same and has been very active in trying to get a decertification effort going at ASA. Granted, he isn't a named litigant or RJDC officer, but he is at the forefront of the RJDC movement. I've never seen anything magnanimous from Dan and his crew, and his bad reputation precedes him in ALPA circles.

I don't see the other "brave" pilots who are sueing ALPA tryng to stop organizing efforts...

The RJDC seeks a seniority grab, a bunch of money, and revenge. Nothing more, nothing less.

In addition they cannot discuss the intended and unitended consequences of their actions....in terms of scope....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

But this is "Brand Scope" by ALPA's own definition and Comair just did it with ALPA's support. Even ALPA is coming around on this.

So let's keep working for change instead of lawsuits.... Part of the effort is to create a grassroots movement amongst the membership. Instead of defending silly divisive lawsuits you should be posting about how guys should be particapting in the democratic process to bring about brand scope...

If there was a such a grassroots movement amongts the membership then the leadership would have the political push and confidence to proceed.

We agree on my greatest concern about this litigation. I too am coming to the opinion that ALPA will not reform. Its' intransigence will result in a loss which awards a large settlement to a handful of Plaintiffs. You are correct that the situation at DCI has deteriorated to the point where it probably can't be fixed, which is exactly what documents the Plaintiff's damage claims.

Should the leadership stick out their necks? Maybe. Can you make them reform? One way to do it is to have a membership drive....

Couple of other minor points:

I don't think "Braveheart" is Capt. Ford. Also, he had an excellent reputation prior to his effort to reform ALPA. Had ALPA not taken action which resulted in his flying being redistributed to 10 cut rate competitors while locking his Reps out of scope negotiations he would have remained a safety nerd.

A leadership failure? why did he not stick with his vision.

A seniority list across companies within a brand is possible. Look at all the variations of seniority lists ALPA negotiated on the US Air property. Look at the Republic, MidAtlantic, Chautaqua, Shuttle America single list. I'm not saying that should serve as a model, but Pinnacle, SkyWest and Mesa already have preferred deals at DAL that was negotiated by the DAL MEC.

Of course it is possible.... I am not sure the leadership has time to address it. they are busy meeting with ALPA legal to address a lawsuit...

There is precedent and a general trend already. Brand Scope would take National leadership and something to make the mainline guys want it too. A carrot, a stick, I don't know....

First it starts with a membership grassroots movement. Then it takes the national leadership to get the MEC's together to work together. A dual front if you will..... the desire of the memebrship and the leadership of national ...meeting in the middle to effect positive change...


Note: no where is a lawsuit mentioned to make it work...... in fact when a lawsuit is mention the discussion is about how the lawsuit is counter productive.. and regressive...

Working for positive change takes time... and with the the BK era consumming so much time of course it will take longer...

But now that the BK era is over, there is true opportunity for you guys to drop your lawsuit and come to the table as workable players...

One of the reason why companies like brand scope is because of hiring. They don;t want to flow up a pilot at ASA to fly Delta B777 because said pilot didn't go thru the DAL interview....

However, with the incredible need for pilots, ALPA maybe in a position to push for Brand Scope on this issue.

It is a complex issue: getting companies to agree to something that is going to cost them money..... but sueing ALPA isn't going to make a company do something...

 

[~~~^~~~]

I don't think the political environment in ALPA can be changed by the grass roots. Just look at age 60.

There was a tremendously strong grass roots movement at ASA and Comair from 1999 to 2001. This movement propelled the RJDC into existence. Back in those days when the LEC meetings had their own "RJDC Update" time in the same fashion that John Rice & the CNC closes out meetings today.

I understand your thought that litigation is controversial and harms the political response to the RJDC's mission. You make a good point, but the lawsuit does not prevent ALPA from doing the right thing. In fact, ALPA can destroy the litigation by doing the right thing and making the RJDC irrelevant.

 

[PCL_128]

In fact, ALPA can destroy the litigation by doing the right thing and making the RJDC irrelevant.

There's nothing that ALPA can do to stop Dan and his cronies from pursuing this lawsuit. That's the reason that his settlement demands from a few years ago are so unreasonable: he wants to make his demands so egregious that ALPA has no choice but to fight this out and not settle. As I said before, the RJDC cares only about money, seniority, and revenge. This isn't about making a better ALPA.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Stop right there. Readers..... soak this in for a minute. With the RLA, current administration and political environement..... management doesn't have to do anything....

They have lawyers telling them how to get our of current CBA's and they certainly don't have to agree to a National Single list, National Pay rates.. Brand seniority lists... The traveling public wants to show up at the airport and fly to point B. they don't want labor issues.....
...

Good point. These days airline managers think they have discovered the "Holy Grail" by destroying longevity. Keep the airplanes moving and the pilots chasing them. The mainline guys have not seen this, yet, but with DHL/Astar and Doug Parker talking about not merging US/AWA, their bosses are thinking about it. We all know the ASA, SkyWest, 900 story already.

But airline managers need stability too. Moving airplanes does cost money (maybe not as much as they get from destroying longevity).

The RJDC figured airline management would blast them with both barrells since the result of RJDC's reforms would make ALPA a whole lot more effective and cohesive. At one point it looked like Delta would be a named defendant to the litigation, because obviously they would have been brought to the table with anything that developed between the pilots all three wholly owned subsidiaries.

This subject deserves its own thread - but I have ideas on how both labor and management could benefit from career stability. For starters, the pay scales need to be adjusted to remove the low low wages at the bottom and the very top. Big money should follow big productivity.

There is no reason a professional pilot entering 121 service should make $19 an hour. At the same time a senior 777 Captain should not make only twice what a topped out 40 seat CRJ-200 Captain makes. Obviously both are underpaid. Pay scales should be flatter, based on productivity and remove the tremendous advantage that new carriers have over established airlines.

 

[~~~^~~~]

There's nothing that ALPA can do to stop Dan and his cronies from pursuing this lawsuit.

If there was no merit to the cause, individual supporters would not be sending checks.

 

[N2264J]

[Braveheart] has been on this board trying to tell the Skywest pilots not to certify ALPA.

That's not what was said and I invite anyone who wants to go back and read the thread to click on the blue icon by braveheart's name below.

The upshot was that if ALPA were to reform and it's scope policies weren't so discriminatory, it wouldn't have such trouble recruiting (stalled on its third drive at Skywest) the smaller carrier pilots.

You give the RJDC too much credit. It's ALPA's own behavior that derails its recruiting drives.

Although the Skywestalpa.org web site is more courteous towards the RJDC than some of ALPA's other publications, it does more harm than good to the organizing effort as it's obvious to the reader how hard ALPA is kicking the rudder to avoid the real issue of its own conduct...

The moral of the story is that the only way for ALPA to address this issue is to show how credible reforms have been enacted. Telling prospective members that they should join ALPA so they can "help fix it" is a loosing argument that merely affirms ALPA's refusal to enact reforms.

 

[Occam's Razor]

If there was no merit to the cause, individual supporters would not be sending checks.

So the test of "merit" in a cause is whether or not pilots send a check in for it?

Now that's funny!

 

[~~~^~~~]

Occam - you may be getting this out of context. PCL's point was there was NOTHING ALPA could do to avoid litigation. I simply pointed out if ALPA would reform there would be no reason for pilots to continue to fund the litigation.

The Court has decided the case has merit to go forward.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Occam - you may be getting this out of context. PCL's point was there was NOTHING ALPA could do to avoid litigation. I simply pointed out if ALPA would reform there would be no reason for pilots to continue to fund the litigation.

Nah...I think I understand the context. Pilots sending in checks means those pilots think the case has merit.

I don't believe "throwing mud against the wall to see if it sticks" -type actions indicate legitimacy...or serve as evidence of "merit".

Truth is, most of us have purchased a Lottery ticket, even though we know the odds are really against us winning. We do it because the chance of a huge pay-off is intriguing. Cue the RJDC fight song!

Here's the rub: The guys they're suing are us! All of us.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Here's the rub: The guys they're suing are us! All of us.

Well, we can't make them stop. The only party to the litigation we have any control over is ALPA.

 

[N2264J]

You RJDC Cheerleaders are real gems. When you got called out on your lawsuit your defense is..look.. other pilots are sueing ALPA... see its ok!

That's not it and he knows it.

- Jmoney asserted that the RJDC are management tools seeking to destroy the union.

- I replied that two former ALPA EVPs, two former United MEC Chairmen and several major airline pilot groups haved sued ALPA but haven't been accused of being management lackeys bent on divide and conquer - I guess they get a pass because they were all big airplane drivers.

- Then Lewshun responds by implying our only justification is that other pilots have sued ALPA so it's OK.

See how the smear works? This guy can't even admit to himself that he works for an alter ego now because having two diametrically opposed
thought processes might lock up and crash his belief system.

By the way, there's a whole website of justification here for anyone willing to educate themselves:

www.rjdefense.com

 

[Catbird]

Easy guys. Occam and the rest of his Salad Tossers at National will be pulling on the Adult Diapers, BB Gun and Mace. Settle down or they will be requesting a rental van post haste. Flight Loss Payment of course for the time spent on the Jihad. I can see them now, performing the pre Jihad checklist.
Command/Response

1.Alpa National issued Diaper-Checked!
2.BB Gun-Checked
3.Mace Spray-Checked
4.Legs Shaved-Checked
5.Expense Account Log-Checked and additional blank pages avaliable!

Saddle Up Rezzy and your mate Occam, Alpa National is depending on you to maintain the Selective Amnesia.