Rip nji

[gunfyter]

You are almost as wrong as 19....

 

[netjetwife]

NJW, I wish I was mistaken on what was told to me. I'm not questioning what you heard; I'm suggesting that the speaker said "Union" out of habit when the correct answer is actually "Company". One thing I have noticed is that there are a few out there who will share their opinion as though it is a fact. I'm not at all saying it is malicious or an intentional distortion of information, just that it happens. I agree. Quite frankly, I think those that have done it believe they are giving you the right information at the time, True, and it can happen to any of us. but after some one else asks the same question in a more public venue the correct answer gets posted after some research. I will do my research and double check my source. But just looking at the question logically.... the Company does the hiring and firing so a seniority list would start and end with them. When pilots decide to leave NJ they go thru the Company, not the Union, to remove their name from the VSL. That sounds like ownership.

I believe this was a major cause of confusion. Perhaps stemming from semantics. Certainly NJASAP keeps a list and refers to it regularly; few would disagree that their list belongs to them. Given the importance seniority has for Unions, it's also easy to see how Volunteers could develop proprietary feelings for the VSL. But every name represents an action taken by the Company so surely they own those decisions? ...

Most of the guys were buying the dinner and beer even though they knew they didn't have to. Same guys who have written me recommendation letters and sent emails to see how things were going. This is a good example of the predominant attitude at NJA. Without it, neither IBB or the VMs would have passed as both required empathy and unselfishness from the pilots who voted for it and their families who supported the decision. Unfortunately, good deeds often go unreported and every sizable group has its fringe element that doesn't represent the attitudes common to the silent majority.

.....the reason for our furlough lies squarely on the company.

As far as the reported over-hiring goes, yes. But had NJA continued to grow and the economy not have sank, then the furlough would not have happened at all, correct? So the real culprits are the economy and plain ol' rotten luck.... And neither of them provide much of a target for those lashing out in frustration.

So we end up with ....what's that term again, Praetorian? Transference.... a typical by-product of stressful situations.

 

[HazMat]

I give up. The same storyline over and over. If you can't admit mistakes nothing ever gets fixed. Don't be surprised if the samething happens again and the anger continues. Call it transference if you want but the better idea is to admit the screw ups and treat the furloughs like human beings and let them on the union board so their voices could be heard and not forgotten. Instead of making up excuses that make absolutely no sense. Also try not to defend stupidity by saying we are just trying to protect the job for when you get back. I know you have to stick to certain speaking points they are evident in every post but it is getting old. You don't understand you are the poster child for not unionizing.

The complaint about unions is they protect the top at the expense of the bottom. It is certainly looking that way and that mentality is blatant in these posts. I got mine and I don't want to hear about your frustrations I am to busy getting mine. Don't want you on the union board because I might have to hear the anger from the bottom etc etc. You could change this but you won't. I always thought the netjet union was different. My mistake. Continue the sales pitch and blame the furloughed for their anger I am done here.

 

[rajflyboy]

You want to merge by "Date of Hire"?

We are fine with that if you pay "Back Dues" all the way back to date of hire.

 

[jppt2000]

You want to merge by "Date of Hire"?

We are fine with that if you pay "Back Dues" all the way back to date of hire.

I hope everyone realizes you speak only for yourself.
I wouldn't vote for someone who is so reckless and ignorant with our CBA and complicated LOA's.
The misinformation that's being spread on this board is amazing, especially from folks who were fired from trusted positions in the union for lying and letting their fellow brothers and sisters down.
Let the folks who are elected and competent do our negotiating.
Another internet tough guy on an anonymous message board.

 

[rajflyboy]

I hope everyone realizes you speak only for yourself.
I wouldn't vote for someone who is so reckless and ignorant with our CBA and complicated LOA's.
The misinformation that's being spread on this board is amazing, especially from folks who were fired from trusted positions in the union for lying and letting their fellow brothers and sisters down.
Let the folks who are elected and competent do our negotiating.
Another internet tough guy on an anonymous message board.

Obviously you are not listening to YOUR dues paying membership.

This post you made is wreckless because you only care about your very own beliefs and not the beliefs of the dues paying members in this union. Pretty disgusting and selfish if you ask me. Many of the pilots are paying 2,000 a year for this service. Its time we get something for this fee we must pay.

Its time for you to wake up from your drunken state.

I wasn't fired from anything!

 

[jtf]

Holy crap- posts are trying to get back on track with the title of the thread. Just when I was going to beg for an end to thread. It's not that I mind people's complaining about this or that, I just mind the constant hijacks of every thread. It is frustrating having to sift through 90 percent off- subject material. Unfortunately I freaking addict and I can't just not look since every once in a while there is a nugget of info I'm glad I saw. Oh well- bicker on. I'll keep sifting.

 

[Pervis]

Since you had to bring our politics into this forum, I feel compelled to respond. If they're so darn competent doing our negotiations, why are the LOAs so complicated? How many NJA pilots currently employed will ever see the V/450/550 with the fences "we" agreed to? How did "we" overlook the need for bypass pay? We have SICs senior to GIV PICs, and GIV PICs making more than senior NJA PICs.

While I totally agree with the protections afforded our new members, I feel somewhat let down that there were no such considerations for those of us that have paid dues for all these years. Yes, we were afforded better scope protections, but that's all. It will be many years before bidding, pay, and basing will be truely equal. You know, all those little things associated with seniority for dues paying members?

We stood by for years watching upgrades while believing what we were told-they're not really upgrading. After all, that ole zebra (RTS) changed his stripes and we were all finally singing the same tune. Well guess what, they did upgrade. In fact, all but about 50 original NJI pilots did upgrade.

For years NJI was afforded the good deals because RTS hated the IBT. Were were the redheaded step children. I get that. Our leadership should have been concerned with providing us some of those deals too when 01-013 was written.

 

[rajflyboy]

Since you had to bring our politics into this forum, I feel compelled to respond. If they're so darn competent doing our negotiations, why are the LOAs so complicated? How many NJA pilots currently employed will ever see the V/450/550 with the fences "we" agreed to? How did "we" overlook the need for bypass pay? We have SICs senior to GIV PICs, and GIV PICs making more than senior NJA PICs.

While I totally agree with the protections afforded our new members, I feel somewhat let down that there were no such considerations for those of us that have paid dues for all these years. Yes, we were afforded better scope protections, but that's all. It will be many years before bidding, pay, and basing will be truely equal. You know, all those little things associated with seniority for dues paying members?

We stood by for years watching upgrades while believing what we were told-they're not really upgrading. After all, that ole zebra (RTS) changed his stripes and we were all finally singing the same tune. Well guess what, they did upgrade. In fact, all but about 50 original NJI pilots did upgrade.

For years NJI was afforded the good deals because RTS hated the IBT. Were were the redheaded step children. I get that. Our leadership should have been concerned with providing us some of those deals too when 01-013 was written.

Right on Pervis! I agree with what you are saying here. We need people like you to run this pilot union!

 

[jtf]

I think the company wasn't ever going to allow the bypass pay again since it bit them so hard before the '05 contract. I would sure love it though since I would be getting a 50 percent or so raise if the language was there. I am happy just to have a job right now and I have a feeling I'll be seeing the top of the FO payscales, but while they did anticipate the need for better FO wages and longer waits to upgrade, I don't think anyone imagined 10+ year FOs here. RS had his own ego driven agenda and I'm not sure if any union would have been able to get more or a better deal as far as getting NJI integrated. I feel personally screwed (by RS) having junior pilots as captains on the G-IV, but I don't blame the union for it because I don't think they could have gotten management (RS) to agree to anything better than they did- even if it was different people negotiating for us.

 

[rajflyboy]

jppt2000

Where did you go? or do you just run away when someone confronts you with something you don't like?

 

[imacdog]

OK.. He wasn't right! That is why everyone is OK with what happened and everyone is overjoyed!

Heidi diedi christ almighty...the truth is they way over hired pilots versus what their business model could support and RTS wanted everyone to be happy. Boisture came in and said it was crazy, and no one wanted to listen. RTS said let's signed a union contract, and now everyone is screwed because they cannot afford the salaries.

Are you this stupid in real life, or just on the internet?

 

[OPECJet]

As far as the reported over-hiring goes, yes. But had NJA continued to grow and the economy not have sank, then the furlough would not have happened at all, correct? So the real culprits are the economy and plain ol' rotten luck.... And neither of them provide much of a target for those lashing out in frustration.

So we end up with ....what's that term again, Praetorian? Transference.... a typical by-product of stressful situations.

Are you suggesting we let the company off the hook for reneging on the VMs? I've heard more apologetic horse manure coming from many sources. The company, the union, other pilots, other employee groups all saying "that was the last administration that agreed to the VMs". The last administration also signed the CBA and hired us all. Should we renegotiate the contract and all re-interview since that management is gone?

NJW, what I quoted was told directly to me as the E Board member stood in front of the membership at the weekly meeting. That answer came from me asking about resigning our seniority number. There was no way TO misunderstand his answer. What you state is partially true. The company dictates who appears on the seniority list. They do not unilaterally dictate who is removed from it.

 

[rajflyboy]

Opecjet

Don't even worry with these folks. They don't care about the rank and file pilot anymore. The only thing they want is our money. They are on their own personal agenda.

 

[netjetwife]

Are you suggesting we let the company off the hook for reneging on the VMs? They continue to meet their pay obligation to those who took the LOAs and early retirements. Those are the only parts of the program that had a stipulated time frame. I've heard more apologetic horse manure coming from many sources. The company, the union, other pilots, other employee groups all saying "that was the last administration that agreed to the VMs". That was my first thought as well. The last administration also signed the CBA and hired us all. Should we renegotiate the contract and all re-interview since that management is gone? That is the good thing about a CBA; it is designed to continue regardless of Company changes. Critical difference between the CBA and the VM--the first is legally binding, the second was a trial program buying time until flying demand increased. Sadly, the economy doomed it.

NJW, what I quoted was told directly to me as the E Board member stood in front of the membership at the weekly meeting. The Union meeting where the word "Union" is said far more than "Company" thus increasing the odds of misspeaking. That answer came from me asking about resigning our seniority number. There was no way TO misunderstand his answer. I don't doubt you listened closely and he said "Union". My suggestion is that his brain thought one thing and his mouth went on autopilot...What you state is partially true. The company dictates who appears on the seniority list. They do not unilaterally dictate who is removed from it.

I'm aware of that; I was skipping straight to the end to simplify things. The point I was making is that the paperwork of employment begins and ends with management, not the Union. Looked at in the context of resigning your seniority number, the fact that those letters are sent to the Company, not the Union, is further evidence the Company owns the VSL. If the Union owned it, there wouldn't be a problem. All decisions would be deferred until that pilot was recalled to ensure the request wasn't made under duress, which many times they are. Discrimination--plainly...not to mention blackmail. My sympathy to all pilots out there having to deal with these strong-arm tactics. NJW

 

[netjetwife]

Opecjet

Don't even worry with these folks. They don't care about the rank and file pilot anymore. The only thing they want is our money. They are on their own personal agenda.

For those just joining the thread, Opec is a furloughed NJA pilot with personal experience in how NJASAP treats its Members. He addressed this question on p.3 post 42. The following excerpt is noteworthy: "I've gotten two calls from line pilots I've never met asking how things were, inviting us to go visit, etc. There are also FWG members working hard behind the scenes. Saying that we're totally out of sight / out of mind is a slap in the face to those guys." Those of you without personal experience to rely on may wonder about the validity of Raj's accusation: Does he have an ax to grind or is he making a fair assessment? To put things into perspective it is helpful to recognize the rules of living that apply to this situation.

No one is perfect. NJASAP has high standards and the NJ pilotgroup has taken on a lot of projects, thus you will be able to find mistakes, especially if you have a "glass half empty" attitude. But a fair-minded person will recognize hard work and a sincere effort to serve when they consider the following: many Volunteers; numerous committees; weekly and quarterly publications; weekly Membership meeting/update in CMH complete with a slideshow briefing and a Q&A session; Stewards on duty 24/7; and leadership (committee chairs and EBoard) contact info always provided with the invitation to call or email. Pilot interests are vigorously defended as this Friday's 411 showed--with a daily timeline, no less.

There is a silent majority. NJASAP regularly surveys the Membership thru a professional 3rd party and the vast majority of the pilots are satisfied with their Union and feel they are getting a good return for their dues.

There is a balancing act. As others have pointed out in this thread, NJASAP is legally obligated to represent all of its members equally. Common sense tells us that can be difficult when there are competing interests and a big discrepancy in the demographics of the group.

You miss the forest when you single out the trees. That the NJ pilots have nonetheless managed to come as far as they have from their grossly under-paid, no Union infrastructure of their own, IBT 284 days to an independent Association with a contract that sets the bar for the industry and strives to provide top notch representation to all of its Members is testament to the fact that the NJ pilots care about one another and their industry.

 

[rajflyboy]

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha

Thats funny!

 

[netjetwife]

As always, I am comfortable letting the reading audience of FI make their own judgments on my posting. The "silent majority" here has provided me with positive feedback on numerous occasions. Those who follow NJ issues closely are aware that I post accurately and fairly.

These are trying times and I wish the best for all in the industry-- including their families. NJW

 

[Diesel]

For those just joining the thread, Opec is a furloughed NJA pilot with personal experience in how NJASAP treats its Members. He addressed this question on p.3 post 42. The following excerpt is noteworthy: "I've gotten two calls from line pilots I've never met asking how things were, inviting us to go visit, etc. There are also FWG members working hard behind the scenes. Saying that we're totally out of sight / out of mind is a slap in the face to those guys." Those of you without personal experience to rely on may wonder about the validity of Raj's accusation: Does he have an ax to grind or is he making a fair assessment? To put things into perspective it is helpful to recognize the rules of living that apply to this situation.

No one is perfect. NJASAP has high standards and the NJ pilotgroup has taken on a lot of projects, thus you will be able to find mistakes, especially if you have a "glass half empty" attitude. But a fair-minded person will recognize hard work and a sincere effort to serve when they consider the following: many Volunteers; numerous committees; weekly and quarterly publications; weekly Membership meeting/update in CMH complete with a slideshow briefing and a Q&A session; Stewards on duty 24/7; and leadership (committee chairs and EBoard) contact info always provided with the invitation to call or email. Pilot interests are vigorously defended as this Friday's 411 showed--with a daily timeline, no less.

There is a silent majority. NJASAP regularly surveys the Membership thru a professional 3rd party and the vast majority of the pilots are satisfied with their Union and feel they are getting a good return for their dues.

There is a balancing act. As others have pointed out in this thread, NJASAP is legally obligated to represent all of its members equally. Common sense tells us that can be difficult when there are competing interests and a big discrepancy in the demographics of the group.

You miss the forest when you single out the trees. That the NJ pilots have nonetheless managed to come as far as they have from their grossly under-paid, no Union infrastructure of their own, IBT 284 days to an independent Association with a contract that sets the bar for the industry and strives to provide top notch representation to all of its Members is testament to the fact that the NJ pilots care about one another and their industry.

To paraphrase. We know what's best for you.

 

[RP170]

For those just joining the thread, Opec is a furloughed NJA pilot with personal experience in how NJASAP treats its Members. He addressed this question on p.3 post 42. The following excerpt is noteworthy: "I've gotten two calls from line pilots I've never met asking how things were, inviting us to go visit, etc. There are also FWG members working hard behind the scenes. Saying that we're totally out of sight / out of mind is a slap in the face to those guys." Those of you without personal experience to rely on may wonder about the validity of Raj's accusation: Does he have an ax to grind or is he making a fair assessment? To put things into perspective it is helpful to recognize the rules of living that apply to this situation.

No one is perfect. NJASAP has high standards and the NJ pilotgroup has taken on a lot of projects, thus you will be able to find mistakes, especially if you have a "glass half empty" attitude. But a fair-minded person will recognize hard work and a sincere effort to serve when they consider the following: many Volunteers; numerous committees; weekly and quarterly publications; weekly Membership meeting/update in CMH complete with a slideshow briefing and a Q&A session; Stewards on duty 24/7; and leadership (committee chairs and EBoard) contact info always provided with the invitation to call or email. Pilot interests are vigorously defended as this Friday's 411 showed--with a daily timeline, no less.

There is a silent majority. NJASAP regularly surveys the Membership thru a professional 3rd party and the vast majority of the pilots are satisfied with their Union and feel they are getting a good return for their dues.

There is a balancing act. As others have pointed out in this thread, NJASAP is legally obligated to represent all of its members equally. Common sense tells us that can be difficult when there are competing interests and a big discrepancy in the demographics of the group.

You miss the forest when you single out the trees. That the NJ pilots have nonetheless managed to come as far as they have from their grossly under-paid, no Union infrastructure of their own, IBT 284 days to an independent Association with a contract that sets the bar for the industry and strives to provide top notch representation to all of its Members is testament to the fact that the NJ pilots care about one another and their industry.

Christ. Would you give it up already? First time I've had to add a name to my ignore list here. I can even handle B19. At least he is good entertainment. You are just flat out annoying and obnoxious. And yes, I am one of the furloughed guys.

 

[netjetwife]

The NJASAP committees are staffed with hard working, well respected pilots that are deserving of recognition and appreciation for their service to the group. It's a fact of life that too much negativity deters volunteers from stepping up so it's important to balance complaints with credit for a job that is overall well done, especially considering the huge amount of personal sacrifice that comes with some of the positions.

The short list of pilots who are willing to throw their hat into the ring for an elected position is testimony to the difficulty of serving a very wide-spread diverse constituency reputed to have Type A personalities and a penchant for complaining...

I strongly encourage every eligible NJA pilot to vote for the candidate of their choice in the current EBoard election which ends on the morning of June 16th. It is your Union and your vote is important.

 

[netjetwife]

Christ. Would you give it up already? First time I've had to add a name to my ignore list here. I can even handle B19. At least he is good entertainment. You are just flat out annoying and obnoxious. And yes, I am one of the furloughed guys.

I support each FI member's right, including those who read only, to assign value to the posts for themselves. The ignore function of the board was designed to do just that and recognizes that selective reading is appropriate while attempting to curtail another's right to post is not.

 

[Jack Mehoff]

Please NJA Wife. NJASAP is only looking out for the F-ing top percent of the group. They're going to sell us furloughed out for a 5th crew meal and a GV slot. NJASAP and management have made it clear that us furloughs are gone. There are all to many pilots willing to vote on a cut away for the furloughs as well if they can get some extra cash such as P.W.

 

[fly4funcrj]

Please NJA Wife. NJASAP is only looking out for the F-ing top percent of the group. They're going to sell us furloughed out for a 5th crew meal and a GV slot. NJASAP and management have made it clear that us furloughs are gone. There are all to many pilots willing to vote on a cut away for the furloughs as well if they can get some extra cash such as P.W.

This has been my fear. The company knows this as does the union. If I were the company, why would I want to bring back furloughed folks at year 5+ pay when I can just hire new pilots for a fraction of the cost. DS has said we are not family. I can see the company saying "ok, we bring back 300+ guys at 5 year pay... hmm.. Thats $$$ more per year then hiring new blood. Multiply that by XXX years and it is cheaper to pay off the current seniority list. " The company will probably offer a pretty low payoff BUT give us say... our 3rd crew meal or something else kind of silly. The union (I am disgusted with our current e-board) will bite because of the reach around they have going on, the pilots will be pilots and the furloughed folks will get f'ed..

I hope I am dead wrong... The unlimited recall rights are only good until the next contract... IF I am wrong, I will come on here and apologize AND include my name

 

[jppt2000]

jppt2000

Where did you go? or do you just run away when someone confronts you with something you don't like?

Nope, sorry I don't run from internet tough guys like you.
I spend way too much time reading this crap and really its nothing more than a bunch of ignorant weenies (myself included) arguing about stuff they have insufficient knowledge or control over.
The misinformation and misrepresentation of what's really happening is truly amusing.

 

[jppt2000]

Obviously you are not listening to YOUR dues paying membership.

This post you made is wreckless because you only care about your very own beliefs and not the beliefs of the dues paying members in this union. Pretty disgusting and selfish if you ask me. Many of the pilots are paying 2,000 a year for this service. Its time we get something for this fee we must pay.

Its time for you to wake up from your drunken state.

I wasn't fired from anything!

Didn't post you were.
I'm not an elected union person either, and I don't speak for the union, it speaks for me

 

[rajflyboy]

Didn't post you were.
I'm not an elected union person either, and I don't speak for the union, it speaks for me

I'm very glad you are not an elected official because you obviously do not understand what this Pilot Group wants and needs at this time.

I guarantee you we have more than 50 percent of our pilots that believe in back dues for date of hire. Thats what this pilot group wants. Does that matter to you?

 

[HazMat]

I don't even know what to say. She is a complete robot. I actually hope for her sake someone feeds her what to say. I also hope she is not representave of njsap if she is god bless

 

[CA1900]

They're going to sell us furloughed out for a 5th crew meal and a GV slot...

Even if the leadership tried to do that, it would require us to vote for it. While I know we have some people so oblivious that they'd sell their mothers out for an extra PTO day, I really think they're few and far between. (These are the same guys who'd take extended days with people on furlough.)

I'm confident the strong majority of us know better than to gut the protections in the contract for short-term gain. There isn't a day at work where I don't think about the guys on furlough. I know I'm not alone in that.

 

[rajflyboy]

Even if the leadership tried to do that, it would require us to vote for it. While I know we have some people so oblivious that they'd sell their mothers out for an extra PTO day, I really think they're few and far between. (These are the same guys who'd take extended days with people on furlough.)

I'm confident the strong majority of us know better than to gut the protections in the contract for short-term gain. There isn't a day at work where I don't think about the guys on furlough. I know I'm not alone in that.

I agree with what you are saying here. The problem is that some of the "Protections in the contract" are being given away and or widdled away piece by piece without the memberships approval. I know I'm not alone in feeling this way.