Rip nji

[OPECJet]

There are so many things that could have been done to save jobs for instance less crew meals or stay in less expensive hotels etc, etc. Even if these things would have only saved a small percentage of jobs wouldn't it have been worth it. Instead it sounds like the I got mine attitude.

That's ridiculous. Nothing would have kept us on the property. I'd rather have all that stuff in tact when / if I go back.

Place the blame where it needs to be. Voluntary measures were agreed to by the company, "no furloughs" was announced, then reneged. Why that hasn't been thrown back in managements face I will never understand.

 

[OPECJet]

The biggest cluster F during the furloughs is the resignation letter fiasco. The union kept saying the company won't do anything unethical and we accept that. WTF I guess american was one big unethical company when you could send in as many resignation letters as you wanted and they weren't going to do a damn thing because there was no way to verify the letter was sent by the furloughee. They just felt it was better to throw those letters away and if they turn down the recall then that's proof that they didn't want to come back.

But oh no the Union AND the company had to reinvent the wheel. Why? Out of sight out of mind is my guess. I think that is at least one bone we could have thrown the furloughees.

I also agree about the "out of sight, out of mind" thing with an exception. I've gotten two calls from line pilots I've never met asking how things were, inviting us to go visit, etc. There are also FWG members working hard behind the scenes. Saying that we're totally out of sight / out of mind is a slap in the face to those guys.

On the resignation letter issue, the union must defend the CBA. We all know what the language is regarding recalls, problem is there isn't anything in there regarding resignations. Since the company as decided to take a hard line on the subject, the union can expend resources fighting this now, later or never. Fighting it now doesn't accomplish much since the players in the game will surely change. NJA has been going through management quicker than I can go through a 12 pack. You think EL and "Am I. Communicating" will be there when recalls start? I don't. Fighting it now shows the cards on a hand that won't be played for years. Never fighting it means the union will allow the company to do whatever it wants with the seniority list. Might as well throw all the names in the hat and start drawing. (BTW, according to an EBoard member at a CMH union meeting, the seniority list belongs to the union).

I've posted my thoughts on the NJASAP board on how to handle those resignation letters. I THINK I've got a handle on it. PM if you need it.

 

[CRJFlyer]

Place the blame where it needs to be. Voluntary measures were agreed to by the company, "no furloughs" was announced, then reneged. Why that hasn't been thrown back in managements face I will never understand.

Good point. Alot of decisions were almost made after last July. If I would have acted on any one of them I would have been completely screwed. Luckily RTS was canned before I met with the realtor etc....

VM's may have saved jobs for a few months. Furloughs still wouldn't have happened immediately, it still would have taken 60+ days due to the mass layoff provisions. In essence we were allowed to stay for a couple months longer. BUT alot of people made decisions based on the fact we thought we were atleast a bit more safe. I'm referring to early outs, LOA's etc... If I hadn't had smoke blown up my arse and had that weekly breakdown of "hey guys we're almost there" I may have just elected to take the 1000/mnth plus benefits.

 

[netjetwife]

... They get the the info from their friends who still work there. ... The liability comes from not taking precautions to protect sensitive information; it is recognized that there are some situations beyond their control. In the above scenario, the fault would lie with those individual pilots who ignored the posted TOS. (2) the real reason for not allowing them on the board shows a total lack of respect for the unemployed. Man up and take the criticism otherwise things don't change for the better. The concern is that there would be peer pressure to make concessions --change for the worse -- without the intended objective of hastening a recall, which only increased flying demand can do. It is a legitimate concern; there are numerous examples of that happening in aviation and we see it in this post. Are the union officials so sensitive they couldn't handle frustration and anger from the very people they are supposed to represent. ... They are sensitive to their legal obligation of providing Fair Representation to all of the pilotgroup. DFR means they cannot allow members of one demographic group to pressure those who exercise their contractual rights. There are so many things that could have been done to save jobs for instance less crew meals or stay in less expensive hotels etc, etc. Even if these things would have only saved a small percentage of jobs wouldn't it have been worth it. Instead it sounds like the I got mine attitude. That would only be your personal frustration causing interference. I can assure you the EBoard searched for all viable answers to prevent the furlough. The best solutions (which beat out examples like those suggested above) were presented to RTS and resulted in the VMs that had been working to some extent. They were discontinued by DS and it cannot be denied that the VMs were unable to increase flying demand which is the criteria that staffing is based on.

By the way your rant is very different then when you came on here several years ago crying about living below the poverty line. Try thinking back to those days and try it with no income. Maybe your perception will change but I doubt it. Insulting one of the NJ FOs most steadfast supporters just strengthens the argument of those who believe furloughed pilots would harass line pilots in the Crew Room...:erm:

A few very important points of order: I was standing up for all of the under-paid NJ pilots in 2004-5, not just my own family. I campaigned here during IBB on behalf of the FOs even though my husband was a PIC. The situation was vastly different both times. NJA could pay fair wages and the decision to do so was up to them. The Company cannot change the economy nor demand that owners begin flying more.

As to the question of my perception changing, I assure you it will not. My family will continue to have NJFF donations automatically taken from the NJA paycheck so that funds will be available to those in need and I will encourage other NJ families to do the same. Just as my husband dropped from the 18 day schedule to the 7&7 during the VM months, he will not seek extended days and we hope that his example will again be noted by other pilots. Just as I posted here to encourage NJ pilots to participate in the VMs to forestall a furlough, I will post asking them to refrain from practices (like extending) that could delay a recall. The FWG is organizing an Outreach Committee whose members will maintain personal contact with the furloughed pilots in their assigned geographical region; I will offer assistance to the pilot assigned to my area in the hope that we can lend moral support and practical help to the furloughees living near us. Best wishes to all furloughed frac pilots, NJW

 

[HazMat]

Njw are you a robot? Are handed these speaking points? It's the same old rant. We get it if the union sold babies on the black market you would defend it as unifying families. Try sometime to see things from the eyes of the people who are worried about losing their house and then have to come on here and listen to some guys bitch about a gulfstream upgrade or being forced to eat a sandwich. It's really has become the same old story what many predicted would happen has. Just remember it is only by good fortune you weren't in the bottom 500 and your number could be called anytime. Be humble alot of people would appreciate it

 

[Diesel]

The liability comes from not taking precautions to protect sensitive information; it is recognized that there are some situations beyond their control. In the above scenario, the fault would lie with those individual pilots who ignored the posted TOS.

Yeah because managment doesn't have access. Non NJA pilots don't have access. Suuure. Everyone reads it. Heaven forbid those who actually deserved it got acces to it.

I wonder if he will give up any union override pay for lost overtime?

And please stop calling it a frac. Its a fractional not a frac. Its a fraternity not a Frat. Its a country not a cun

 

[LAZYB]

Leaving aside the pros and cons? of allowing access, the decision should have been taken by the pilots. I'm tired of the E board making unilateral decisions because "we know whats best for the pilots". :nuts:

Bingo

 

[LAZYB]

The biggest cluster F during the furloughs is the resignation letter fiasco. The union kept saying the company won't do anything unethical and we accept that. WTF I guess american was one big unethical company when you could send in as many resignation letters as you wanted and they weren't going to do a damn thing because there was no way to verify the letter was sent by the furloughee. They just felt it was better to throw those letters away and if they turn down the recall then that's proof that they didn't want to come back.

But oh no the Union AND the company had to reinvent the wheel. Why? Out of sight out of mind is my guess. I think that is at least one bone we could have thrown the furloughees.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner :beer:

 

[netjetwife]

... I've gotten two calls from line pilots I've never met asking how things were, inviting us to go visit, etc. Perhaps this is happening because of (or was inspired by) the OutReach Committee the FWG has been organizing. If so, that means that other furloughees have been, or soon will be, contacted as well. That's great! There are also FWG members working hard behind the scenes. Saying that we're totally out of sight / out of mind is a slap in the face to those guys. It's nice to see credit given where it's due. I join you in applauding their service and commitment.

On the resignation letter issue, the union must defend the CBA. We all know what the language is regarding recalls, problem is there isn't anything in there regarding resignations. I bet that gets addressed in the next round of negotiations. Improvements often follow unfortunate events that highlight a need. Since the company as decided to take a hard line on the subject, the union can expend resources fighting this now, later or never. Fighting it now doesn't accomplish much since the players in the game will surely change. A valid consideration. Waiting until a recall gets closer and/or a more auspicious opportunity presents itself makes sense. DS will surely be more receptive to working something out when he is not distracted by all the changes that have been taking place lately. This seems to be one of those issues where timing it right can be key to success. ... Fighting it now shows the cards on a hand that won't be played for years. Good point. ... (BTW, according to an EBoard member at a CMH union meeting, the seniority list belongs to the union). Has one of you misspoken? While NJASAP certainly does keep a VSL and protects seniority, I've heard many times that it "belongs" to the Company. That makes sense considering that it is based on DOH which is controlled by NetJets, not NJASAP.

I've posted my thoughts on the NJASAP board on how to handle those resignation letters. I THINK I've got a handle on it. PM if you need it.

Nice offer! It may well be that the furloughees can put their heads together and come up with a viable approach to the problem that the Union could not introduce at this time given the roadblocks cited above.

In the spirit of self-help, perhaps some of the furloughees could assist the OutReach Committee. Sometimes, it's easier to discuss your problems with someone in the same situation....

Thanks for posting about the calls you received. It has reinforced my decision to start reaching out to furloughed pilots/families in my area.
NJW

 

[gunfyter]

Njw are you a robot? Are handed these speaking points? It's the same old rant. We get it if the union sold babies on the black market you would defend it as unifying families. Try sometime to see things from the eyes of the people who are worried about losing their house and then have to come on here and listen to some guys bitch about a gulfstream upgrade or being forced to eat a sandwich. It's really has become the same old story what many predicted would happen has. Just remember it is only by good fortune you weren't in the bottom 500 and your number could be called anytime. Be humble alot of people would appreciate it

I am sorry...

WTFO?

Its not the Unions fault anyone is furloughed.... The Union negotiated voluntary measures with the company. Management reneged. Volunteers spent untold hours on the Furlough Working Group.

The non-Union people got screwed. Released from work without an hours warning.

Don't try to spin this into the union's fault.

We are way better off than you are in the event a reduction in force becomes necessary where you work.

 

[Praetorian]

My wife works as a Registered Nurse at a hospital. She has told me many times about how very sick patient's families often lash out out her, the very person why is trying to help their family member. She says she was taught about this in nursing school; it's called "transference", or the redirection of bad angry feelings onto a nearby, but undeserving person. It's essentially a ingrained visceral and childish reaction.

I'm seeing the same thing here. Furloughed pilots are lashing out at the very same union leaders who have spent many long hours trying to help them. Of course union leaders must consider the well-being of the entire group, so this sometimes makes them targets, because those decisions don't always benefit us personally. Its much easier to point the finger of blame at them then to deal with the incalculable complexity of the economic circumstances that are really responsible for your misfortune. I guess sometimes its just easier to say "that guy" or "those people" did it.

 

[HazMat]

Gun you can spin this anyway you want. Its not about the furlough it's about the way the other pilots handle it. When comments are made about gulfstream seats and sandwiches and on top of that not giving them access to the union board it says a lot. Spin away that's fine the reality comes to the forefront when you run into a netjet furloughed pilot. They have a lot to say. You can say whatever you want while you have a job and no worries about taking care of your kids or paying the bills. If the union does anything its job should be to support those who are out of work. I have spoken to at least 20 of the furloughed most are my friends they don't feel that way I will leave it at that. Go ahead with the we returned their dues line. In my opinion it would have been criminal to keep them. Maybe I am jaded because I see what some people I know well are going thru. You all seem to have forgotten and moved on. I am busy trying to get them a job at the company I work for now. Let the speaking points fly.

 

[gunfyter]

I think you are the one spinning....

Sandwiches and Gulfstreams have nothing to do with the furlough....

I shouldn't eat or bid into a seat my seniority can hold because there is a furlough?

The Union has done much in support the furloughed.... But we are always open to ideas ... if you have some ideas about what more we could do ... I would be glad support them and bring to the attention of the leadership.

 

[HazMat]

Open the union board. That would be a good start

 

[gunfyter]

Open the union board. That would be a good start

Good idea ... been suggested already. Won't get anyone's job back or employed elsewhere though....

Let us know if you have any other ideas that will help people who need employment....

 

[OPECJet]

NJW, I wish I was mistaken on what was told to me. One thing I have noticed is that there are a few out there who will share their opinion as though it is a fact. I'm not at all saying it is malicious or an intentional distortion of information, just that it happens. Quite frankly, I think those that have done it believe they are giving you the right information at the time, but after some one else asks the same question in a more public venue the correct answer gets posted after some research.

I believe this was a major cause of confusion. I understand the reason behind it. When you're a union rep and gets asked a question, you want to answer it promptly and correctly. Problem is answering promptly can cause an incorrect answer.

HazMat, you and I must have had different experiences out on the road. The only "attitude" I got from other pilots was a few that boasted about doing the job for fun and that they didn't need the money. Those guys are part of the 5% Club who are feminine hygiene products anyway. Most of the guys were buying the dinner and beer even though they knew they didn't have to. Same guys who have written me recommendation letters and sent emails to see how things were going.

You can blame the union for the message board BS and some unintentional misinformation, but the reason for our furlough lies squarely on the company.

 

[HazMat]

Ok let me try one more time. It's not about the furlough it's about the treatment post furlough. This stuff only makes their feelings more credible

 

[gret]

It is strange...B19 was right. I don't agree with him all the time, but what he said would happen has.

Pilots, plumber, accountants, all the same.. Sometimes they need us, other times they don't.

They is no right to a job...only the opportunity!

 

[CA1900]

It is strange...B19 was right.

No he wasn't. He said the union would cause a furlough, and it most certainly didn't. Indeed, its work with the company on voluntary options lessened and delayed furloughs for a significant period. CitationShares, for example, furloughed long before we did.

 

[gret]

OK.. He wasn't right! That is why everyone is OK with what happened and everyone is overjoyed!

Heidi diedi christ almighty...the truth is they way over hired pilots versus what their business model could support and RTS wanted everyone to be happy. Boisture came in and said it was crazy, and no one wanted to listen. RTS said let's signed a union contract, and now everyone is screwed because they cannot afford the salaries.

NetJets doesn't have any money other than what Berkshire Hathaway wants to give them.

Arguing with somebody on a message board about what was said in the past is nonsense. It happened and who cares what anybody said.

I could give a flying crap about B19, but he deserves the right to post and he has tried to pass on his experiences with union. Ignore him and go on if you don't like what he as to say.