Response to JoeMerchant

[FDJ2]

Joe is a waste of time. He and his OLDER grilfriend need to stay out of chief pilot offices in closed door meetings if they are ever going to dig their way out of this turncoat attack against our obtaining a fair contract.

What else do you expect from PFT Joe? He's a turn coat who attacks the CBAs of his fellow ALPA Pilots, lobbied to prevent the hiring of furloughed pilots and is an RJDC supporter (i.e. self serving loser). Did you guys ever think that he wouldn't eventually turn on the ASA pilots in order to pursue his self serving and misguided agenda? Why and how you guys ever elected him is beyond reason.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Why and how you guys ever elected him is beyond reason.

I've thought the very same thing since it happened!

 

[HoserASA]

JoeMerchant has done more to harm our pilots than any other pilot. He deserves to be in management and I think he will get an offer for all his assistance in their drive to a concessionary agreement. MW doesn't need an apology from Joe because he has proven himself since he has been back in ALPA. Joe is a waste of time. He and his OLDER grilfriend need to stay out of chief pilot offices in closed door meetings if they are ever going to dig their way out of this turncoat attack against our obtaining a fair contract.

Agreed, Bizjet, except let JB go into management. Who cares!

John, your attack is uncalled for and very mean-spirited. I know you won't apoligize to Mike. I only wish you'd say such trash to his face but of course it's easier for you to hide behind the keyboard like the ************************* you are. I know you don't care, but you have lost any respect from the ASA pilots. Now that's something to be proud of isn't it?

Hoser

 

[HoserASA]

I've thought the very same thing since it happened!

I regret that I voted for him.

Hoser

 

[Plug]

Why and how you guys ever elected him is beyond reason.

Unfortunately, JB had name recognition at the time and enough support. Combine that with a very weak turnout for the voting and 112 got a worthless sec/treas. Thank goodness the pilots didn't vote the last minute CA rep. candidate in, LBJ. She resigned from the MEC Vice Chair cuz she was about to get booted, give her a position with a vote and things would have gone down hill quickly.

 

[surplus1]

Why not...You're trying to bankrupt MY union with a multi-million dollar lawsuit, and you haven't been thrown out YET! But when this fruitless suit is finally done with, I will make sure it possible that the likes of you and John merchant are EXPELLED!
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But what if they should win? Will they then get to "expell" you or will you just pout and leave of your own volition?

 

[Flip Conroy]

But what if they should win?

And what if Spartacus had a Piper Cub?

 

[FDJ2]

But what if they should win? Will they then get to "expell" you or will you just pout and leave of your own volition?

If the RJDC succeeds in destroying the scope clauses of the large network carriers and preventing pilot groups from negotiating scope clauses that limit their employers ability to outsource to the lowest bidder, I can't see any network carrier staying with ALPA. We'd all move on. After all Surplus, you are the one who believes that no pilot group owns their code or can control it.

 

[surplus1]

If the RJDC succeeds in destroying the scope clauses of the large network carriers and preventing pilot groups from negotiating scope clauses that limit their employers ability to outsource to the lowest bidder, I can't see any network carrier staying with ALPA. We'd all move on. After all Surplus, you are the one who believes that no pilot group owns their code or can control it.

I really don’t want to revitalize the old arguments. We’ve beaten the horse to death and neither one of us intends to change his position.

I would however say that, with the very able direction/assistance of the ALPA, the large network carriers have already proven beyond all doubt that they have not only failed to limit the employer’s ability to “outsource to the lowest bidder”, but have also numbered themselves among the very lowest of “bidders” for the very flying they were attempting to prevent. To paraphrase, never before have so few (ALPA leadership and network carrier leadership) done so little for so many (ALPA membership).

That is correct, I do believe that no pilot group “owns” its code or can control it. I did not fail to note that you quoted me earlier.

Perhaps if you would focus on controlling the allocation of your work as opposed to the Company’s “Code” you might have made some progress.

Whatever the union does with your “scope” is fine with me, as long as it does not use my “scope” as the means to achieve your bargaining objectives at my expense.

Sooner or later we will hopefully be able to prevent ALPA’s sponsorship of that modus operandi. If at that point you should decide to take your marbles and “move on”, I would not object. If you think we are “bidding against each other now”, just wait until your exodus is complete. It won’t be pretty.

Keep in mind that none of the “little people” have yet made an attempt to “bid” against you directly; they are busily bidding against each other. In contrast, at least 3-4 of you “network carriers” have been actively “bidding” against the little people. Your may win those bids today and you have, but your victory is Pyrrhic. There are no better examples than the now defunct MDA, the newly created Compass, your own contract and the new and improved AWA/AAA, excelled only by non-union JetBlue.

I congratulate you all on this brilliant “scope strategy”. What will you all “trade” next time you’re in the barrel?

 

[John Pennekamp]

Stop hijacking every thread into an RJDC/Anti-RJDC rant! NONE OF US CARE ANYMORE!!!!

Now, back to bashing JB and LJ... it was getting entertaining.

 

[737 Pylt]

deleted...

 

[737 Pylt]

I really don’t want to revitalize the old arguments. We’ve beaten the horse to death and neither one of us intends to change his position.

I would however say that, with the very able direction/assistance of the ALPA, the large network carriers have already proven beyond all doubt that they have not only failed to limit the employer’s ability to “outsource to the lowest bidder”, but have also numbered themselves among the very lowest of “bidders” for the very flying they were attempting to prevent. To paraphrase, never before have so few (ALPA leadership and network carrier leadership) done so little for so many (ALPA membership).

That is correct, I do believe that no pilot group “owns” its code or can control it. I did not fail to note that you quoted me earlier.

Perhaps if you would focus on controlling the allocation of your work as opposed to the Company’s “Code” you might have made some progress.

Whatever the union does with your “scope” is fine with me, as long as it does not use my “scope” as the means to achieve your bargaining objectives at my expense.

Sooner or later we will hopefully be able to prevent ALPA’s sponsorship of that modus operandi. If at that point you should decide to take your marbles and “move on”, I would not object. If you think we are “bidding against each other now”, just wait until your exodus is complete. It won’t be pretty.

Keep in mind that none of the “little people” have yet made an attempt to “bid” against you directly; they are busily bidding against each other. In contrast, at least 3-4 of you “network carriers” have been actively “bidding” against the little people. Your may win those bids today and you have, but your victory is Pyrrhic. There are no better examples than the now defunct MDA, the newly created Compass, your own contract and the new and improved AWA/AAA, excelled only by non-union JetBlue.

I congratulate you all on this brilliant “scope strategy”. What will you all “trade” next time you’re in the barrel?

Why would you even care old fool! You're retired, now back to the AARP, viagra and social security! If I wanted any crap out of you, I'd squeeze your head!
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[FDJ2]

I would however say that, with the very able direction/assistance of the ALPA, the large network carriers have already proven beyond all doubt that they have not only failed to limit the employer’s ability to “outsource to the lowest bidder”, but have also numbered themselves among the very lowest of “bidders” for the very flying they were attempting to prevent.

Wrong twice in just one sentence. DAL scope is well defined, if DAL could have, they would have outsourced Song flying to a much lower bidder, your beloved CMR. When it comes to underbidding DAL pilots, DAL management stated, in sworn testimony during the recent 1113 motion, that CMR pilots cost half as much as DAL pilots.


I do believe that no pilot group “owns” its code or can control it.

O.K., so you believe companies can outsource their code to whomever. Thanks for clarifying your position.

Perhaps if you would focus on controlling the allocation of your work as opposed to the Company’s “Code” you might have made some progress.

My work is flying DAL code flying in accordance with the mutually accepted terms of my union and my company.

Whatever the union does with your “scope” is fine with me, as long as it does not use my “scope” as the means to achieve your bargaining objectives at my expense.

So you have no problem with DAL pilots taking back all DAL code 70 seat flying, for example. That wouldn't be an issue with CMR "scope, since CMR scope doesn't and never has had any controlling language over the DL code. Thanks for clarifying your position.

It's really quite simple, the CMR pilots can negotiate whatever scope they can with their employer CMR, and DAL pilots can negotiate the same with their employer DAL. Fair enough Surplus.

 

[surplus1]

My work is flying DAL code flying in accordance with the mutually accepted terms of my union and my company.

Your work is flying whatever DAL operates on the DAL certificate and nothing else. If you think you have the right to fly Air France aircraft because they use DAL "code" why don't you demand it from your Company and see how far you get?

You once had the opportunity to prevent all outsourcing and you chose to "sell" it back to the company. You weren't smart enought to figure out that once you did that, they would ask for more and more, which they have. And, when you didn't feel like giving more they would force you to, which they also have.

You opened the barn door and the horse is gone. Live with it.

The company owns its code and its flying. They give you what part of it they want to give you and nothing else. You can foam at the mouth all you want, that won't change a thing. You've been trying now to close the barn door for more than a decade and you haven't succeeded. Resistance is futile.

The outsourcing you created is here to stay as long as the company wants it to stay. If they really want more they will get more. If you don't like it you have one option; strike. You are free to make that decision in every Section 6; have at it.

Whatever the union does with your “scope” is fine with me, as long as it does not use my “scope” as the means to achieve your bargaining objectives at my expense.

So you have no problem with DAL pilots taking back all DAL code 70 seat flying, for example. That wouldn't be an issue with CMR "scope, since CMR scope doesn't and never has had any controlling language over the DL code. Thanks for clarifying your position.

That spin effort is less that what you're capable of; try again.

You have already been actively attempting to "take back" all the 70-seat flying ever since CMR initially ordered that aircraft - at a point in time (pre '96) when you did not even have an attempted prevention in your PWA. You have failed. Not only did you fail, it has increased from the feeble attempt to limited it to 57 airframes to the new limit of 200 and it's now up to 76-seats. When DAL decides they want it to go higher, it will.

In other words, your efforts at predatory "scope" are a failure. The same ALPA effort has failed at every other network carrier, consistently for more than 10 years. Your failure to acknowledge that reality is your problem, not mine.

It's really quite simple, the CMR pilots can negotiate whatever scope they can with their employer CMR, and DAL pilots can negotiate the same with their employer DAL. Fair enough Surplus.

When the ALPA decides to stop interfering with the collective bargaining process for the purpose of furthering your ambitions at our expense, then that will be fine; not before.

Hopefully, the courts will require the ALPA to represent fairly. IF they do, at that point you can make good on your threat to leave the ALPA.

As soon as you put that decision into effect, we will then be free to negotiate with whomever we please for whatever we please and so will you. Remember that; it may come in handy in the future.

As you say, it's really quite simple. I wish you luck.

 

[atrdriver]

Whatever the union does with your “scope” is fine with me, as long as it does not use my “scope” as the means to achieve your bargaining objectives at my expense.

No one messed with your scope. If you fly for ASA the scope says that all ASA flying (Ev code) will be flown by ASA pilots. If you fly for CMR, your scope section says that all CMR flying (OH code) will be flown by CMR pilots. Since there is no EV or OH code, no one has touched your scope section. CMR pilots fly the part of the DL code allocated to them, ASA pilots fly the DL code allocated to them, etc. No, the DAL piltos don't own the code, DAL does. But DAL must allocate it within the limits of the DALPA PWA.

And Joe STILL owes an apology to MW.

 

[Flip Conroy]

And Surplus is still the biggest dolt on this board. He is too old to see the truth, he invents his own "facts", then supports them with innuendo, methaphors and melodrama. Nothing of any substance.

Pay him no mind. Because he has no mind. Or very little left of it. One day, what IS left of it will go away, HE will go away, the RJDC suit which he so ardently supports (another sign of his dwindling reasoning) will go away, all his money will go away (a regional lifer couldn't have built much of a nest egg and he is squandering what is left of it on his meager retirement lifestyle and contributions to keep a hopeless lawsuit alive), and then he will cease to exist on this board since he will have nothing to talk about nor the means to do so.

It is nature's way.

 

[~~~^~~~]

No one messed with your scope. If you fly for ASA the scope says that all ASA flying (Ev code) will be flown by ASA pilots.

Huh, what about the code flown by ASA pilots and transferred to SkyWest pilots to get around ASA's pilot contract?

The transfer of flying proves we have no scope. The direct, indefatigible, reason for that is ALPA National's actions, which were directed by the Delta MEC.

 

[737 Pylt]

Huh, what about the code flown by ASA pilots and transferred to SkyWest pilots to get around ASA's pilot contract?

The transfer of flying proves we have no scope. The direct, indefatigible, reason for that is ALPA National's actions, which were directed by the Delta MEC.

Let's not forget the sinking of the Titanic, which happened nearly 100 years ago....Also the fault of the DL MEC. Your excuses are tiresome dude, and you should spend more time fighting the real enemy...Management!
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[atrdriver]

Huh, what about the code flown by ASA pilots and transferred to SkyWest pilots to get around ASA's pilot contract?

The transfer of flying proves we have no scope. The direct, indefatigible, reason for that is ALPA National's actions, which were directed by the Delta MEC.

Yes we do have scope. We have scope over the EV code. The code flown by ASA pilots that was tranferred to SKW pilots was DL code. I don't like it, but that's what happenes when you don't own the code that you fly. That's why I want to move on, because I think that there is more job security when you own the code that you fly.

As far as anything being directed by the DAL MEC, all they directed was how much flying could be done by someone other than themselves. Just because we fly it doesn't mean that it becomes EV code. It is still DL code, and always will be. We have not had EV code since we began our code share agreement with DAL, and likely will never again.

 

[737 Pylt]

Yes we do have scope. We have scope over the EV code. The code flown by ASA pilots that was tranferred to SKW pilots was DL code. I don't like it, but that's what happenes when you don't own the code that you fly. That's why I want to move on, because I think that there is more job security when you own the code that you fly.

As far as anything being directed by the DAL MEC, all they directed was how much flying could be done by someone other than themselves. Just because we fly it doesn't mean that it becomes EV code. It is still DL code, and always will be. We have not had EV code since we began our code share agreement with DAL, and likely will never again.

Be careful atrdriver, you're starting to make sense, and you'll be scorned into the same corner as the evil DL pilots. Remember, its everyones fault but fins! It makes him look at himself easier in the mirror. And as for Surplus, he's been retired for nearly 2 years, no longer has a dog in this fight, but he has to have something to brag about in his twilight years. Imagine how terrible it must have been to fly with some old miserable fart like him!?
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