Response to JoeMerchant

[737 Pylt]

deleted...

 

[737 Pylt]

I really don’t want to revitalize the old arguments. We’ve beaten the horse to death and neither one of us intends to change his position.

I would however say that, with the very able direction/assistance of the ALPA, the large network carriers have already proven beyond all doubt that they have not only failed to limit the employer’s ability to “outsource to the lowest bidder”, but have also numbered themselves among the very lowest of “bidders” for the very flying they were attempting to prevent. To paraphrase, never before have so few (ALPA leadership and network carrier leadership) done so little for so many (ALPA membership).

That is correct, I do believe that no pilot group “owns” its code or can control it. I did not fail to note that you quoted me earlier.

Perhaps if you would focus on controlling the allocation of your work as opposed to the Company’s “Code” you might have made some progress.

Whatever the union does with your “scope” is fine with me, as long as it does not use my “scope” as the means to achieve your bargaining objectives at my expense.

Sooner or later we will hopefully be able to prevent ALPA’s sponsorship of that modus operandi. If at that point you should decide to take your marbles and “move on”, I would not object. If you think we are “bidding against each other now”, just wait until your exodus is complete. It won’t be pretty.

Keep in mind that none of the “little people” have yet made an attempt to “bid” against you directly; they are busily bidding against each other. In contrast, at least 3-4 of you “network carriers” have been actively “bidding” against the little people. Your may win those bids today and you have, but your victory is Pyrrhic. There are no better examples than the now defunct MDA, the newly created Compass, your own contract and the new and improved AWA/AAA, excelled only by non-union JetBlue.

I congratulate you all on this brilliant “scope strategy”. What will you all “trade” next time you’re in the barrel?

Why would you even care old fool! You're retired, now back to the AARP, viagra and social security! If I wanted any crap out of you, I'd squeeze your head!
737

 

[FDJ2]

I would however say that, with the very able direction/assistance of the ALPA, the large network carriers have already proven beyond all doubt that they have not only failed to limit the employer’s ability to “outsource to the lowest bidder”, but have also numbered themselves among the very lowest of “bidders” for the very flying they were attempting to prevent.

Wrong twice in just one sentence. DAL scope is well defined, if DAL could have, they would have outsourced Song flying to a much lower bidder, your beloved CMR. When it comes to underbidding DAL pilots, DAL management stated, in sworn testimony during the recent 1113 motion, that CMR pilots cost half as much as DAL pilots.


I do believe that no pilot group “owns” its code or can control it.

O.K., so you believe companies can outsource their code to whomever. Thanks for clarifying your position.

Perhaps if you would focus on controlling the allocation of your work as opposed to the Company’s “Code” you might have made some progress.

My work is flying DAL code flying in accordance with the mutually accepted terms of my union and my company.

Whatever the union does with your “scope” is fine with me, as long as it does not use my “scope” as the means to achieve your bargaining objectives at my expense.

So you have no problem with DAL pilots taking back all DAL code 70 seat flying, for example. That wouldn't be an issue with CMR "scope, since CMR scope doesn't and never has had any controlling language over the DL code. Thanks for clarifying your position.

It's really quite simple, the CMR pilots can negotiate whatever scope they can with their employer CMR, and DAL pilots can negotiate the same with their employer DAL. Fair enough Surplus.

 

[surplus1]

My work is flying DAL code flying in accordance with the mutually accepted terms of my union and my company.

Your work is flying whatever DAL operates on the DAL certificate and nothing else. If you think you have the right to fly Air France aircraft because they use DAL "code" why don't you demand it from your Company and see how far you get?

You once had the opportunity to prevent all outsourcing and you chose to "sell" it back to the company. You weren't smart enought to figure out that once you did that, they would ask for more and more, which they have. And, when you didn't feel like giving more they would force you to, which they also have.

You opened the barn door and the horse is gone. Live with it.

The company owns its code and its flying. They give you what part of it they want to give you and nothing else. You can foam at the mouth all you want, that won't change a thing. You've been trying now to close the barn door for more than a decade and you haven't succeeded. Resistance is futile.

The outsourcing you created is here to stay as long as the company wants it to stay. If they really want more they will get more. If you don't like it you have one option; strike. You are free to make that decision in every Section 6; have at it.

Whatever the union does with your “scope” is fine with me, as long as it does not use my “scope” as the means to achieve your bargaining objectives at my expense.

So you have no problem with DAL pilots taking back all DAL code 70 seat flying, for example. That wouldn't be an issue with CMR "scope, since CMR scope doesn't and never has had any controlling language over the DL code. Thanks for clarifying your position.

That spin effort is less that what you're capable of; try again.

You have already been actively attempting to "take back" all the 70-seat flying ever since CMR initially ordered that aircraft - at a point in time (pre '96) when you did not even have an attempted prevention in your PWA. You have failed. Not only did you fail, it has increased from the feeble attempt to limited it to 57 airframes to the new limit of 200 and it's now up to 76-seats. When DAL decides they want it to go higher, it will.

In other words, your efforts at predatory "scope" are a failure. The same ALPA effort has failed at every other network carrier, consistently for more than 10 years. Your failure to acknowledge that reality is your problem, not mine.

It's really quite simple, the CMR pilots can negotiate whatever scope they can with their employer CMR, and DAL pilots can negotiate the same with their employer DAL. Fair enough Surplus.

When the ALPA decides to stop interfering with the collective bargaining process for the purpose of furthering your ambitions at our expense, then that will be fine; not before.

Hopefully, the courts will require the ALPA to represent fairly. IF they do, at that point you can make good on your threat to leave the ALPA.

As soon as you put that decision into effect, we will then be free to negotiate with whomever we please for whatever we please and so will you. Remember that; it may come in handy in the future.

As you say, it's really quite simple. I wish you luck.

 

[atrdriver]

Whatever the union does with your “scope” is fine with me, as long as it does not use my “scope” as the means to achieve your bargaining objectives at my expense.

No one messed with your scope. If you fly for ASA the scope says that all ASA flying (Ev code) will be flown by ASA pilots. If you fly for CMR, your scope section says that all CMR flying (OH code) will be flown by CMR pilots. Since there is no EV or OH code, no one has touched your scope section. CMR pilots fly the part of the DL code allocated to them, ASA pilots fly the DL code allocated to them, etc. No, the DAL piltos don't own the code, DAL does. But DAL must allocate it within the limits of the DALPA PWA.

And Joe STILL owes an apology to MW.

 

[Flip Conroy]

And Surplus is still the biggest dolt on this board. He is too old to see the truth, he invents his own "facts", then supports them with innuendo, methaphors and melodrama. Nothing of any substance.

Pay him no mind. Because he has no mind. Or very little left of it. One day, what IS left of it will go away, HE will go away, the RJDC suit which he so ardently supports (another sign of his dwindling reasoning) will go away, all his money will go away (a regional lifer couldn't have built much of a nest egg and he is squandering what is left of it on his meager retirement lifestyle and contributions to keep a hopeless lawsuit alive), and then he will cease to exist on this board since he will have nothing to talk about nor the means to do so.

It is nature's way.

 

[~~~^~~~]

No one messed with your scope. If you fly for ASA the scope says that all ASA flying (Ev code) will be flown by ASA pilots.

Huh, what about the code flown by ASA pilots and transferred to SkyWest pilots to get around ASA's pilot contract?

The transfer of flying proves we have no scope. The direct, indefatigible, reason for that is ALPA National's actions, which were directed by the Delta MEC.

 

[737 Pylt]

Huh, what about the code flown by ASA pilots and transferred to SkyWest pilots to get around ASA's pilot contract?

The transfer of flying proves we have no scope. The direct, indefatigible, reason for that is ALPA National's actions, which were directed by the Delta MEC.

Let's not forget the sinking of the Titanic, which happened nearly 100 years ago....Also the fault of the DL MEC. Your excuses are tiresome dude, and you should spend more time fighting the real enemy...Management!
737

 

[atrdriver]

Huh, what about the code flown by ASA pilots and transferred to SkyWest pilots to get around ASA's pilot contract?

The transfer of flying proves we have no scope. The direct, indefatigible, reason for that is ALPA National's actions, which were directed by the Delta MEC.

Yes we do have scope. We have scope over the EV code. The code flown by ASA pilots that was tranferred to SKW pilots was DL code. I don't like it, but that's what happenes when you don't own the code that you fly. That's why I want to move on, because I think that there is more job security when you own the code that you fly.

As far as anything being directed by the DAL MEC, all they directed was how much flying could be done by someone other than themselves. Just because we fly it doesn't mean that it becomes EV code. It is still DL code, and always will be. We have not had EV code since we began our code share agreement with DAL, and likely will never again.

 

[737 Pylt]

Yes we do have scope. We have scope over the EV code. The code flown by ASA pilots that was tranferred to SKW pilots was DL code. I don't like it, but that's what happenes when you don't own the code that you fly. That's why I want to move on, because I think that there is more job security when you own the code that you fly.

As far as anything being directed by the DAL MEC, all they directed was how much flying could be done by someone other than themselves. Just because we fly it doesn't mean that it becomes EV code. It is still DL code, and always will be. We have not had EV code since we began our code share agreement with DAL, and likely will never again.

Be careful atrdriver, you're starting to make sense, and you'll be scorned into the same corner as the evil DL pilots. Remember, its everyones fault but fins! It makes him look at himself easier in the mirror. And as for Surplus, he's been retired for nearly 2 years, no longer has a dog in this fight, but he has to have something to brag about in his twilight years. Imagine how terrible it must have been to fly with some old miserable fart like him!?
737