Republic (Chautauqua) to fly 170s for Delta

[SYXDude]

In all seriousness, I hate to see people furloughed and downgraded. I hope it doesn't last long. SYX and MidEx has a TRACK RECORD of absolutely asinine decisions -- hiring a WHOLE LOT of pilots and upgrading like crazy based solely on the deal being "ALMOST" done was foolish, especially in this revenue environment. Enough said on that.

Well, neither SYX or MidEx are paying for the hiring/training or ongoing pay for the pilots on SYX's senority list. Delta is paying for all of it so SYX/MidEx's financial exposure is minimal. Past efforts/decisions might have been "asinine" but SYX's attempt to grow through contracting with Delta was/is a good idea. And, if the whole deal falls apart, it won't be because of any failures on SYX's behalf.

 

[79%N1]

 WWAAHHHHH....IT'S ALPA'S FAULT
WWAAHHHHH....IT'S MY DADDY'S FAULT
WWAAHHHHH....IT'S MY MOMMIE'S FAULT
WWAAHHHHH....IT'S YOUR FAULT
WWAAHHHHH....IT'S HIS FAULT
WWAAHHHHH....IT'S THEIR FAULT
WWAAHHHHH....IT MUST BE SOMEONE ELSE FAULT...

...because it's NEVER your own GD fault you sorry whiney MFers

Ok........Please explain to me how ANY of this in ANY way in WHATSOEVER MY FAULT -----A HOLE!!! If your man enough, PM me, and we can discuss it, so you can enlighten me om my role in the further whipsawing, contracting out, and dragging down of my company. I cant wait!

 

[DAL737FO]

The visibility in my crystal ball is beginning to improve. How much you want to bet:
(1) The CHQ deal was negotiated with the knowledge of ALPA, before LOA 46.
(2) There are jets for jobs provisions attached.

After all, how much of Republic's seniority list are J4J guys from United and other places? Republic - the airline - not the holding company - was created to be a jets for jobs alter ego, wasn't it?

If ALPA negotiated a deal to put airplanes at non ALPA carriers just to secure favorable employment for their preferred pilots, they gonna have some 'splainin to do.

What an idiot. I sent LOA 46 to anyone that wanted to read it. The only J4J program you will see is preferential hiring to the right seat first year pay. Yippee. Everything else you post is just pure conspiracy theory and getting real old to boot. It is stated in LOA 46 that any connection airline that takes delivery of any additional 70 seaters will give preferential hiring to a Delta furloughee. You're just pissed because CHQ is doing to you what you guys have been doing to mainline since 911. Cheaper labor.

B-727 Freight Dawg

 

[Cracker]

Its is paid for college.

Usage: ALPA members have paid dearly for their union's failure to stop alter ego air carriers from undermining the efforts of their members engaged in collective bargaining.

Sorry about that...see what happens when you go to a public university.

 

[GFunk20]

You're just pissed because CHQ is doing to you what you guys have been doing to mainline since 911. Cheaper labor.

B-727 Freight Dawg

Exactly!! Like I said, if this deal was for ASA/Comair to get CRJ700s, these guys would be totally happy. But since Chautauqua gets it, all of a sudden its absolutely unacceptable and life is over. Grow up guys.

The public is sick of the CRJ700. The EMB-170 flown by Chautauqua with HAPPY employees is a way better product anyday. Delta knows it.

 

[michael707767]

I can't figure out why anyone is shocked by this. Did you think the company asked for the changes in definition of a 70 seater which would allow the E-170 just for grins? Did you really think they would add another fleet type at ASA and or CMR, even if you are cheaper than CHQ? Did you think they would add to our debt to add the E-170 when CHQ or someone like them could do it and the debt is theirs not Delta's? Did you think Delta would not continue to add to the DCI arsenal to spread the flying and minimize the risk of a strike? Did you think something like this would not happen while ASA was in contract talks?

Anyone who is surprised by this move is either a fool or just doesn't pay attention to whats going on.

Let me add to the ASA and CMR guys, if you think it will end with 16 E-170s at CHQ, you are kidding yourself. And for the Delta guys, if you think it will end with the E-170, you are also kidding yourself.

 

[tron4000]

The public is sick of the CRJ700. The EMB-170 flown by Chautauqua with HAPPY employees is a way better product anyday. Delta knows it.

Hey, pass that Embraer KOOLAID-NOW WITH HAPPY FLAVOR-, I WANT SOME!!! Bryan Bedford must be pouring it down your throats in Indoc.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Let me add to the ASA and CMR guys, if you think it will end with 16 E-170s at CHQ, you are kidding yourself.

You are correct. But, I do not think this will go beyond the E series jets. And I think there will be a deal which places Delta pilots in these seats.

It is getting very close to time to decertify ALPA on the ASA property. Very close.

 

[michael707767]

And I think there will be a deal which places Delta pilots in these seats.

Just curious why you think that? I mean, right now they can add all the allowed addition 70 seaters with nothing more than preferential hiring for the furloughed DAL guys (which means bottom of the list at CHQ). The Delta MEC has absolutely no leverage to negotiate a J4J deal for the E-170s. Now, I could see a deal where they do J4J if Delta wants CHQ to fly the E-190s. But I do think the Delta MEC will cave on allowing outsourcing up to 100 seats.

 

[BoilerUP]

Delta pilots complain that the WO small jet providers undercut their salary, and are whores of the industry. CMR/ASA grow in leaps and bounds. CHQ (non-ALPA) becomes a DCI carrier, and CMR/ASA complain that the contract small jet providers undercut their salary, and are whores of the industry.

And the circle of life goes round...

Merry Christmas to everybody on this board, regardless of what airline you work for or what your hourly pay rate is. May we all still have jobs at this point next year, and all do better on our next contract.

 

[601Pilot]

I can't figure out why anyone is shocked by this. Did you think the company asked for the changes in definition of a 70 seater which would allow the E-170 just for grins? Did you really think they would add another fleet type at ASA and or CMR, even if you are cheaper than CHQ? Did you think they would add to our debt to add the E-170 when CHQ or someone like them could do it and the debt is theirs not Delta's? Did you think Delta would not continue to add to the DCI arsenal to spread the flying and minimize the risk of a strike? Did you think something like this would not happen while ASA was in contract talks?

Anyone who is surprised by this move is either a fool or just doesn't pay attention to whats going on.

Let me add to the ASA and CMR guys, if you think it will end with 16 E-170s at CHQ, you are kidding yourself. And for the Delta guys, if you think it will end with the E-170, you are also kidding yourself.

I agree. There will be a lot more E-170s heading to someone besides CMR or
ASA. I'll be surprised if we (ASA) actually receive all 25 a/c we are scheduled
to receive in `05. The possibility of a strike at ASA is gaining momentum by the
day, especially with all the company rhetoric being spewed. I'm assuming we
will have a strike vote within 6 months if the current pace of negotiations is
maintained. That will have a big impact on a/c deliveries and flight allocation.
If, God forbid, we go on strike for 90 days, the financial impact to DAL would
definitely pull them into Ch. 11. I have no doubt that the loss would be close to
$1 billion due to the increase in flying scheduled for Feb. 1st.

 

[FDJ2]

I GUARANTEE the furloughed pilots from YOUR group would have something to say about it.

???. Do you care to explain that? An ALPA approval of the PID would have accomplished nothing since DAL was under no obligation to integrate seniority lists. A PID without a merger is about as useful as tits on a bull.

 

[brew3departure]

I know, I'm a thread hijacker, but I can't help myself...

SYXdude said >>

Well, neither SYX or MidEx are paying for the hiring/training or ongoing pay for the pilots on SYX's senority list. Delta is paying for all of it so SYX/MidEx's financial exposure is minimal. Past efforts/decisions might have been "asinine" but SYX's attempt to grow through contracting with Delta was/is a good idea. And, if the whole deal falls apart, it won't be because of any failures on SYX's behalf.

<<

I asked this before, I'll ask again - is Delta paying for the Beech 1900 initial/upgrade training that results from people moving to the 328? If they are, WHY on earth are they doing so? Assuming Delta isn't footing the bill for sim time at FSI/LGA, it's not quite right to say that Delta is footing the bill for "all" the training.

And I agree, contracting with Delta is a good idea for your airline - I wasn't suggesting otherwise. Believe me - getting out from under the MEH banner would do nothing but improve the SYX outlook. DELTA is not paying the salaries of the pilots that you hired, though. Does it really make sense to upgrade and hire a ridiculous number of pilots only to have them sit idle? Delta paid for the training -- great -- they aren't paying for health bennies or salaries. I like to see people hired, I like to see people upgrade - what I DON'T like is to see those people spurned and cast out on the street like so many others before due to the things I've been talking about.

Based on that, I would guess the financial exposure is MAJOR - how can you afford to pay pilots, albeit first year salaries, that you aren't even using?! And if, as Jobear said, you are going to furlough and downgrade, do you think Delta is going to pay for the requals? Maybe they are - but from a company (SYX) that once said, several months after 9/11 when everyone was receiving JA and overtime phone calls "It's cheaper to JA everyone and cancel flights than to RECALL people who have been furloughed..." I'm just trying to call a spade a spade here.

And Jobears suggestion that thanks to the CHQ/RP agreement with Delta that his career at SYX is now over and that "Mainline pilots thought the 50 seater was the career-killer" is just laughable.

C'mon Jobear - I probably can't hijack this thread another time without getting some type of reprimand - care to respond?

And, lastly -- if the deal does fall apart between SYX and Delta/whomever, it'll be because of the poor cash position of all the parties involved. That is, by no means, the pilots' fault...but what is really the pilots' fault, anyway?

Happy holidays!
-brew3

 

[SYXDude]

B3Dep,


From what I know, DL is paying salaries for all pilots hired post March 1, 2004. That's in addition to paying for ALL training for everyone hired from that date forward or associated upgrades. Doesn't matter A/C type - Beech and Jet are included. I would hope that SYX/MidEx has an agreement with DL that if a deal isn't signed that DL will pay for requal training for displacements.

As for Jobear, I can appreciate his frustration. I'm hoping that maybe DL will still want to do business with SYX.

What do I know...I'm just a line dog.

Merry Christmas to you.

 

[chperplt]

From what I know

What where did you get this information that "you know"? Was it from another pilot??

I find it difficult to believe that any company on the brink of a BK filing would agree to pay for ALL of your training costs and salaries prior to a deal being signed.

I think you guys are living in a land called wishfull thinking.

 

[Bart Simpson]

Stupid Bump
BlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBla
Stop your f*ckin whining and get over it. What is anyone gonna do about the Status Quo? Go on Flightinfo and bitch and whine like lil schoolgirls. Just shut the f*ck up.
BlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBla

 

[chperplt]

Stop your f*ckin whining and get over it. What is anyone gonna do about the Status Quo? Go on Flightinfo and bitch and whine like lil schoolgirls. Just shut the f*ck up.

Got to love the high school drop outs on this board.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Way to tell him, FDJ2.

I seriously doubt CHQ got this deal and other DL RFPs for the sole reason of pilot pay. What about the quality of the product? Compare Comair's performance when they had MCO to Chautauqua's now. Even their own gate agents will admit it down there in FL. Particularly when we fly into FLL.

your so full of shi t

 

[SYXDude]

What where did you get this information that "you know"? Was it from another pilot??

I find it difficult to believe that any company on the brink of a BK filing would agree to pay for ALL of your training costs and salaries prior to a deal being signed.

I think you guys are living in a land called wishfull thinking.

You're entitled to your opinion and no matter what I say or what sources are provided, you'll still be skeptical.

So, on that note Chperplt, I wish you and your family a happy Holiday and best wishes for 2005.

 

[chperplt]

SYXDude,

I'm just trying to understand why Delta would do something like that. It doesn't make business sense, especially with the situation they are in.

I'm not trying to stir the pot.

Happy holidays to you too

 

[flyer172r]

SYXDude,

I'm just trying to understand why Delta would do something like that. It doesn't make business sense, especially with the situation they are in.

I'm not trying to stir the pot.

Happy holidays to you too

I guess Delta saw something in CHQ's cost structure that appealed to them more than ASA or CMR's. Apparently saving the few bucks meant more to them than loyalty to their subsidiaries. Although I guess loyalty is a four-letter word when it comes to the airline business.

Happy holidays to all, I'll say this now since hopefully we have better things to do than post on flightinfo. May the new year bring us plentiful jobs for good wages, and may we support each other instead of bashing each other over mgmt's decisions.

 

[suupah]

A 2nd year CMR 50 FO makes more than any CHQ 170 FO regardless of longevity. Any 50 seat Capt at CMR makes more than his peer on the 170 at CHQ. I don't care how 'efficient' we at CMR think we are, it's only a matter of time. I don't believe it's possible to compete when we are getting lowballed this much. Good luck ASA. We need you guys to hit a home run or we are all screwed. Nice job CHQ. I used to defend you guys because your 50 seat rates are somewhat in the ballpark and you did get improvement in most of your contract, but this is nuts. $66 @ hour for a 5 year 70 seat Capt?!? YGTBSM! Even Mesa pays more than that.

actually mesa pays less

 

[chperplt]

Flyer172R

SYXDude and I were not talking about CHQ.

 

[jumppilot]

I guess Delta saw something in CHQ's cost structure that appealed to them more than ASA or CMR's. Apparently saving the few bucks meant more to them than loyalty to their subsidiaries. Although I guess loyalty is a four-letter word when it comes to the airline business.

Happy holidays to all, I'll say this now since hopefully we have better things to do than post on flightinfo. May the new year bring us plentiful jobs for good wages, and may we support each other instead of bashing each other over mgmt's decisions.

I think you guys are missing the point.

CHQ operates the 170, Comair and ASA operate the 700. The 170 looks like a mini airbus on the inside, which offers much greater comfort than the CRJ700.

Not trying to stir the pot or add fuel to the flame, but from a customer standpoint, the 170 offers superior service, even if CHQ's cost structure is a little higher (according to one poster).

Bottom line: 170 offers the comfort passengers demand and in turn they will offer repeat business.

Now, if ASA or Comair gets an aircraft which can go from CVG-Tokyo in 20 minutes, any discomfort will be tolerated. Get the point?

 

[zeroline]

I wouldnt start worrying just yet

chperpltQuote:
From what I know


What where did you get this information that "you know"? Was it from another pilot??

I find it difficult to believe that any company on the brink of a BK filing would agree to pay for ALL of your training costs and salaries prior to a deal being signed.

I think you guys are living in a land called wishfull thinking.

I heard from DO and fleet supervisor that delta is paying the salaries for all of the 40+ extra CA and FO's on the 328's. I dont see why people are saying skyways deal is over because of this. If Delta cant sell off the 328 leases, they will have to utilize them somehow, which is probably why they are paying all of the extra skway pilots salaries.

Secondly, think about the load factors on the 328's when ACA was flying them. If there was a route that was truly demanding of alot more than 32 seats, they probably would have had comair cover it at the time. They will probably be using the 70 seaters on different routes than what used to very recently be covered by 32 seats (unless demand has changed recently or they are reducing the frequency.) Its not over yet.

Merry x-mas to all

 

[surplus1]

I can't figure out why anyone is shocked by this. Did you think the company asked for the changes in definition of a 70 seater which would allow the E-170 just for grins? Did you really think they would add another fleet type at ASA and or CMR, even if you are cheaper than CHQ? Did you think they would add to our debt to add the E-170 when CHQ or someone like them could do it and the debt is theirs not Delta's? Did you think Delta would not continue to add to the DCI arsenal to spread the flying and minimize the risk of a strike? Did you think something like this would not happen while ASA was in contract talks?

Anyone who is surprised by this move is either a fool or just doesn't pay attention to whats going on.

Let me add to the ASA and CMR guys, if you think it will end with 16 E-170s at CHQ, you are kidding yourself. And for the Delta guys, if you think it will end with the E-170, you are also kidding yourself.

Michael,

You and I often have differences of opinion but I have to tell you that this time you've hit the nail squarely on the head, including your last sentence.

Decisions made many years ago have come back to roost. The crystal ball I got for Christmas back in '93 is finally proving it's worth. Too bad nobody listened back then, especially the powers at ALPA, Int'l.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

???. Do you care to explain that? An ALPA approval of the PID would have accomplished nothing since DAL was under no obligation to integrate seniority lists. A PID without a merger is about as useful as tits on a bull.

IF ALPA had approved the merger and DAL allowed it, NONE of the mainline guys and gals on furlough now would have been furloughed. It would have been the last 1000+ hired. Those who have been hired at ASA/CMR since 9/11

 

[michael707767]

Michael,

You and I often have differences of opinion but I have to tell you that this time you've hit the nail squarely on the head, including your last sentence.

Thanks. I think we may disagree on reasons for it, but long term I think it's inevitable that many MECs (not just DALPA) start to cave more on scope.
Michael

 

[Lolikoka]

Lumps of Coal for the decision makers

I haven't been on here for a couple of days - this sure dampened my Christmas spirit. I sense some of the mainline guys are happy - or at least somewhat satisfied with this news. Bottom line - this isn't good news for them either. The more the flying gets divided up at all levels, the worse it is for all or us. Especially with a mainline replacement plane like these new E-170's and 190's.

For all of you who gleefully say the regionals a few years ago were undercutting the mainline pilots - hold your horses. As was pointed out elsewhere in here, we never flew comparably sized planes.

Someone brought up decertifying ALPA at ASA. Many of the mainline guys would love to get us out of ALPA. I'm not ready to give them that victory - I want ALPA to stop the carnage in this industry by militantly demanding and acting to force companies to unify pilot contracts. The only way this will happen is with a national SOS.

Gotta go before I have an aneurysm.

Merry Christmas; Happy New Year; pass me a strike ballot.

 

[flyer172r]

Flyer172R

SYXDude and I were not talking about CHQ.

Woops, sorry. I guess that's what happens when two topics are discussed on one thread.