Regional Pilots Kill 228 People by Pulling up After Stall Warning

[Amish RakeFight]

How does that work out when you have a blocked pitot tube? Perhaps the pilots were getting an increasing speed (performance) indication with an ever increasing altitude and pitch attitude. That sure would be confusing when you're flying at night, in severe turbulence at 4 am in you home time zone.

The whole point of pitch and power is that airspeed (blocked pitot) is out of the equation. They lost this parameter. Therefore, reliance on increasing airspeed indication is moot.

Pitch and power will equal performance (safe airspeed).

The backup gyro and thrust settings might have paid dividends.

 

[777forever]

The whole point of pitch and power is that airspeed (blocked pitot) is out of the equation. They lost this parameter. Therefore, reliance on increasing airspeed indication is moot.

Pitch and power will equal performance (safe airspeed).

The backup gyro and thrust settings might have paid dividends.

As far as I've heard airspeed was the only thing erroneous or missing. Strange for a professional pilot to be staring at 40 degrees nose up and still pulling back on the stick

 

[suupah]

We cannot yet determine from the evidence that has presented that the crew responded incorrectly. However, it does point out that there is too much reliance upon automated systems that not only aren't 100% reliable, but create a dangerous loss of basic airmanship skills that isn't being compensated for by increasing training requirements for basic instrument skills and airmanship. Unfortunately, not enough people have died yet for things to change...

The new requirements should require that all pilots have to have "hand flown the beech" 1900 where pilots are born and aviators made. Write your senators!!

 

[Amish RakeFight]

The new requirements should require that all pilots have to have "hand flown the beech" 1900 where pilots are born and aviators made. Write your senators!!

That'll be a lot harder, now that GIA is no longer selling the right seat.

 

[hockeypilot44]

In an Airbus, the thrust levers do not move. I could see how this could happen. About 2 years ago, a Northwest A330 had a similar problem. The thrust rolled back and the airspeed indications dropped to 0. The pilots recognized what was going on quickly, turned off the autothrottles, and set the thrust to pretty close to normal settings. A few minutes later, the airspeed indications came back and they were right on speed. The NWA crew was extremely confused as to what was going on, but they kept the aircraft under control. If the pitot tube was blocked, the airspeed indicator probably started acting like an altimeter (private pilot stuff). The guy starts pulling back, the airspeed goes up, he pulls back more, aircraft stalls. Bad piloting might have been part of the problem, but an unusual acting aircraft started the whole thing.

To the naive regional poster who started this post, karma's a bitch. I hope it never comes back to bite you. I truly mean that.

 

[Capi_Cafre']

...Strange for a professional pilot to be staring at 40 degrees nose up and still pulling back on the stick

There's a big difference between 40 degrees AOA and 40 degrees nose up.

 

[JJET44]

If you were to stay on topic you would note that this AF pilot had 3500 hrs..The question is why did he increase pitch when he was at such a low speed. I think you would note that investigators will ask is it poor training or did he not recognize the situation as a low speed stall for some reason.

Think about it!
It's not how much time he had at the time of the crash but how much he had when hired. If he was hired with only 250 hours TT, most of his time is in cruise, crossing the pond, on autopilot, eating French Toast, and French Fries. How long do you think it takes for a international pilot to accumulate 3250 hours? Four years maybe!?!?
IMHO he was more dangerous as time goes on than when he was first hired.

This is assuming he was hired with the absolute minimums.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Think about it!
It's not how much time he had at the time of the crash but how much he had when hired. If he was hired with only 250 hours TT, most of his time is in cruise, crossing the pond, on autopilot, eating French Toast, and French Fries. How long do you think it takes for a international pilot to accumulate 3250 hours? Four years maybe!?!?
IMHO he was more dangerous as time goes on than when he was first hired.

This is assuming he was hired with the absolute minimums.

BINGO!...Airline flying, especially long range airline flying is very mundane and routine. Experience is important...especially teaching, and cargo/charter/multiple cycle short range PIC flying.....Ab Initio straight to a international long range carrier ain't worth squat.

The bigger question is how did they end up in this storm in the first place. Did they know it was there? If not, why not? If they knew it was there, why did they fly into it.

 

[wmuflyguy]

BINGO!...Airline flying, especially long range airline flying is very mundane and routine. Experience is important...especially teaching, and cargo/charter/multiple cycle short range PIC flying.....Ab Initio straight to a international long range carrier ain't worth squat.

The bigger question is how did they end up in this storm in the first place. Did they know it was there? If not, why not? If they knew it was there, why did they fly into it.

From the report, they briefed the cabin and each other about wx ahead and started a deviation.

 

[JoeMerchant]

From the report, they briefed the cabin and each other about wx ahead and started a deviation.

Yes, but they still ended up penetrating a very large cell...How?

Briefing doesn't mean crap...I want to know how they ended up in this cell.

 

[777forever]

There's a big difference between 40 degrees AOA and 40 degrees nose up.

My bad. Staring at 16 degrees nose up

 

[Axel]

There's a big difference between 40 degrees AOA and 40 degrees nose up.

Yup. AOA was 40-ish with the pitch attitude around 15 all the way to the water

The airplane was close to the edge of its envelope when the event began. An airspeed indication discrepancy precipitated the event and the airspeed indicators are now indicating a ridiculously low value with no accompanying stall warning. TOGA thrust and 15deg pitch and the airplane is falling out of the sky in the middle of the night, over the middle of the ocean, in the middle of the weather.

That would have overwhelmed a lot of pilots.

 

[dojetdriver]

Strange for a professional pilot to be staring at 40 degrees nose up and still pulling back on the stick

It's not the first time it's happened you know.......

Yup. AOA was 40-ish with the pitch attitude around 15 all the way to the water

The airplane was close to the edge of its envelope when the event began. An airspeed indication discrepancy precipitated the event and the airspeed indicators are now indicating a ridiculously low value with no accompanying stall warning. TOGA thrust and 15deg pitch and the airplane is falling out of the sky in the middle of the night, over the middle of the ocean, in the middle of the weather.

That would have overwhelmed a lot of pilots.

Yep, the failures were pretty fast and furious;

02:10Z:
Autothrust off
Autopilot off
FBW alternate law
Rudder Travel Limiter Fault
TCAS fault
Flight Envelope Computation warning

02:11Z:
Failure of all three ADIRUs
Failure of gyros of ISIS (attitude information lost)

02:12Z:
ADIRUs Air Data disagree

02:13Z:
Flight Management, Guidance and Envelope Computer fault
PRIM 1 fault
SEC 1 fault
02:14Z:
Cabin Pressure Controller fault (cabin vertical speed)

 

[filejw]

Think about it!
It's not how much time he had at the time of the crash but how much he had when hired. If he was hired with only 250 hours TT, most of his time is in cruise, crossing the pond, on autopilot, eating French Toast, and French Fries. How long do you think it takes for a international pilot to accumulate 3250 hours? Four years maybe!?!?
IMHO he was more dangerous as time goes on than when he was first hired.

This is assuming he was hired with the absolute minimums.

Not really, AF is like any other legacy. He most likely started in the rt seat on a 320 or something like it on inter European routes with very short sectors

 

[Baronman]

Actually, it should be more important to monitor the pilots from foreign countries that fly into the US. It is very common to have 250 hour FOs at carriers in India and Mexico. If we have to hire pilots with X number of hours, we should also have some system that monitor the quality of pilots and mx from foreign carriers that fly into here. We may be safer with better pilots, but without cabotage protections, we will be a a severe financial disadvantage to foreign carriers with code sharing or other rights to carry US passengers. I think it is important to have some better limits on 121 pilots, but we need to look at the overall picture of what could happen if we do not put other safeguards into effect.

Eric Pogo

Please...gimme a break. If you think XJT pilots are anything special, shall we go over old ASAP and FOQA data?

 

[Axel]

It's not the first time it's happened you know...

http://dms.ntsb.gov/aviation/AccidentReports/joimdo45pyrqzo2eb5bp3abh/F05282011120000.pdf

Stall warning inop. Tried to hold the nose up at full thrust as they fell all the way out of the sky.

 

[LHRCrewDog]

Baronman and Filejw:

My whole post was about 777forevers comment (most likely sarcastic) that all 121 FOs need 10000 hours. I guess I should have put that in quotes for you veterans here on FI.

When I first read the last sentence in the OP, I thought this thread was going a different direction.

 

[Captain Morgan]

In an Airbus, the thrust levers do not move. I could see how this could happen. About 2 years ago, a Northwest A330 had a similar problem. The thrust rolled back and the airspeed indications dropped to 0. The pilots recognized what was going on quickly, turned off the autothrottles, and set the thrust to pretty close to normal settings. A few minutes later, the airspeed indications came back and they were right on speed. The NWA crew was extremely confused as to what was going on, but they kept the aircraft under control. If the pitot tube was blocked, the airspeed indicator probably started acting like an altimeter (private pilot stuff). The guy starts pulling back, the airspeed goes up, he pulls back more, aircraft stalls. Bad piloting might have been part of the problem, but an unusual acting aircraft started the whole thing.

To the naive regional poster who started this post, karma's a bitch. I hope it never comes back to bite you. I truly mean that.

True stuff! If you had an Unreliable Airspeed condition, the aircraft doesn't know where it is or what it's doing. The pilot must recognize the problem first. If they don't know what's going on, they can't take the appropriate action. To compound things, the conditions they were in weren't helpful either. Before we throw them under the bus, we should wait to figure out all the details.

 

[wmuflyguy]

Briefing doesn't mean crap...I want to know how they ended up in this cell.

Use that experience of yours and think of the likely scenario's. I can think of a number of plausible ones.

We will never know exactly how they ended up in it.

 

[jonjuan]

Use that experience of yours and think of the likely scenario's. I can think of a number of plausible ones.

We will never know exactly how they ended up in it.

The Nova episode on AF447 hypothesizes why they may have flown into the storm.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/space/crash-flight-447.html