Regional Pilots Kill 228 People by Pulling up After Stall Warning

[777forever]

(CNN) -- Pilots of the Air France flight that crashed in 2009 and plummeted 38,000 ft in just three minutes and 30 seconds, lost vital speed data, France's Bureau of Investigation and Analysis (BEA) said Friday.
Pilots on the aircraft got conflicting air speeds in the minutes leading up to the crash, the interim reports states. The aircraft climbed to 38,000 ft when "the stall warning was triggered and the airplane stalled," the report says.
Aviation experts are asking why the pilots responded to the stall by pulling the nose up instead of pushing it down to recover.

Congress has to act on this now! 10,000 hrs to be a 121 FO. Anyone with less than 15,000 hrs is on the low time pilot observation program!

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Pitch and power never fails...

 

[LHRCrewDog]

Actually, it should be more important to monitor the pilots from foreign countries that fly into the US. It is very common to have 250 hour FOs at carriers in India and Mexico. If we have to hire pilots with X number of hours, we should also have some system that monitor the quality of pilots and mx from foreign carriers that fly into here. We may be safer with better pilots, but without cabotage protections, we will be a a severe financial disadvantage to foreign carriers with code sharing or other rights to carry US passengers. I think it is important to have some better limits on 121 pilots, but we need to look at the overall picture of what could happen if we do not put other safeguards into effect.

Eric Pogo

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Actually, it should be more important to monitor the pilots from foreign countries that fly into the US. It is very common to have 250 hour FOs at carriers in India and Mexico. If we have to hire pilots with X number of hours, we should also have some system that monitor the quality of pilots and mx from foreign carriers that fly into here. We may be safer with better pilots, but without cabotage protections, we will be a a severe financial disadvantage to foreign carriers with code sharing or other rights to carry US passengers. I think it is important to have some better limits on 121 pilots, but we need to look at the overall picture of what could happen if we do not put other safeguards into effect.

Eric Pogo

Several Indian pilots were shown to have had forged flight times, as well.

There was even an incident where the CA left and the FO inadvertantly put the plane into a dive and couldnt recover. CA initally had trouble getting into the flightdeck before recovering.

Scary stuff.

 

[ex j-41]

Congress has to act on this now! 10,000 hrs to be a 121 FO. Anyone with less than 15,000 hrs is on the low time pilot observation program!

No, all pilots must have graduated from one of the harvards of flight training. If you didn't go to Riddle or Purdue then you can't fly at an airline. Safety First!












Sarcasm.....

 

[Kaman]

We cannot yet determine from the evidence that has presented that the crew responded incorrectly. However, it does point out that there is too much reliance upon automated systems that not only aren't 100% reliable, but create a dangerous loss of basic airmanship skills that isn't being compensated for by increasing training requirements for basic instrument skills and airmanship. Unfortunately, not enough people have died yet for things to change...

 

[LJ45]

Pitch and power never fails...

Bingo! basic stick and rudder skills need to be taught from Day 1 to the last day.

 

[filejw]

Actually, it should be more important to monitor the pilots from foreign countries that fly into the US. It is very common to have 250 hour FOs at carriers in India and Mexico. If we have to hire pilots with X number of hours, we should also have some system that monitor the quality of pilots and mx from foreign carriers that fly into here. We may be safer with better pilots, but without cabotage protections, we will be a a severe financial disadvantage to foreign carriers with code sharing or other rights to carry US passengers. I think it is important to have some better limits on 121 pilots, but we need to look at the overall picture of what could happen if we do not put other safeguards into effect.

Eric Pogo

If you were to stay on topic you would note that this AF pilot had 3500 hrs..The question is why did he increase pitch when he was at such a low speed. I think you would note that investigators will ask is it poor training or did he not recognize the situation as a low speed stall for some reason.

 

[Kaman]

If you were to stay on topic you would note that this AF pilot had 3500 hrs..The question is why did he increase pitch when he was at such a low speed. I think you would note that investigators will ask is it poor training or did he not recognize the situation as a low speed stall for some reason.

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the pilots lost situational awareness to due ambiguous data being displayed on their airspeed tapes. We won't really know why that happened (if ever) until all the data has been gathered, reduced and presented in a report. We can speculate all-day long about different theories, but the simplest is more often than not correct. It is baffling to me that they wouldn't revert to their standby instruments and use basic attitude instrument flying skills to maintain level flight at a safe airspeed and then figuring out a way to navigate and then communicate...

 

[Kaman]

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/learmount/2011/05/air_france_447_the_facts_and_w.html

 

[The Drizzle]

and had a vertical speed of 10,912ft/min.

ouch.

 

[SLUF4]

it's a little different sitting here thinking about it with all the time in the world than when its actually happening at night in IMC with all sorts of bells and whistles going off and getting incorrect data from your instruments

 

[dougdrvr]

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/learmount/2011/05/air_france_447_the_facts_and_w.html

The companion piece is also fascinating

http://www.flightglobal.com/article...ous-flaws-in-pilot-training-for-handling.html

 

[filejw]

it's a little different sitting here thinking about it with all the time in the world than when its actually happening at night in IMC with all sorts of bells and whistles going off and getting incorrect data from your instruments

More than one 121 carrier has been using a very similar scenario to this in recurrent trying to replicate this event. Two of my friends from different AB operations described it as unsettling as it happened quickly and was very confusing.

 

[Kaman]

it's a little different sitting here thinking about it with all the time in the world than when its actually happening at night in IMC with all sorts of bells and whistles going off and getting incorrect data from your instruments[/QUOTE

Agreed, and I don't think anyone is trying disparage the names of the pilots involved in this accident. Clearly, something is beginning raise it's ugly head in the flying business and how pilots are being trained.

 

[IBNAV8R]

Too much book and legal [stuff], and not enough "pilot [stuff]"

Did we REALLY think we were getting better pilots by dumbing down the PTS - stalls, spins, MCA, etc.? How about that whole FAA mandate about maintaining altitude during the (immanent) stall recovery?

 

[CesnaCaptn]

Pitch and power never fails...

How does that work out when you have a blocked pitot tube? Perhaps the pilots were getting an increasing speed (performance) indication with an ever increasing altitude and pitch attitude. That sure would be confusing when you're flying at night, in severe turbulence at 4 am in you home time zone.

 

[dougdrvr]

How does that work out when you have a blocked pitot tube? Perhaps the pilots were getting an increasing speed (performance) indication with an ever increasing altitude and pitch attitude. That sure would be confusing when you're flying at night, in severe turbulence at 4 am in you home time zone.

He said "pitch and power", nothing about airspeed. Sometimes you just have to know what's impossible and what's not. You can go all the way back to the Northwest Orient 727 that crashed, many moons ago, due to the pitot heat never being turned on. (which resulted in mandatory pitot heat OFF/FAIL lights)

From what I've gathered so far, no one has mentioned the indication of severe turbulence, which would certainly show up in the G trace of the DFDR.

 

[OurMoney1]

Isnt it true that Airbus pilots dont train for stalls only slow speed awareness? Anyone? Seriously?

 

[damnflyboy]

Congress has to act on this now! 10,000 hrs to be a 121 FO. Anyone with less than 15,000 hrs is on the low time pilot observation program!

Bravo. Love the thread title.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

How does that work out when you have a blocked pitot tube? Perhaps the pilots were getting an increasing speed (performance) indication with an ever increasing altitude and pitch attitude. That sure would be confusing when you're flying at night, in severe turbulence at 4 am in you home time zone.

The whole point of pitch and power is that airspeed (blocked pitot) is out of the equation. They lost this parameter. Therefore, reliance on increasing airspeed indication is moot.

Pitch and power will equal performance (safe airspeed).

The backup gyro and thrust settings might have paid dividends.

 

[777forever]

The whole point of pitch and power is that airspeed (blocked pitot) is out of the equation. They lost this parameter. Therefore, reliance on increasing airspeed indication is moot.

Pitch and power will equal performance (safe airspeed).

The backup gyro and thrust settings might have paid dividends.

As far as I've heard airspeed was the only thing erroneous or missing. Strange for a professional pilot to be staring at 40 degrees nose up and still pulling back on the stick

 

[suupah]

We cannot yet determine from the evidence that has presented that the crew responded incorrectly. However, it does point out that there is too much reliance upon automated systems that not only aren't 100% reliable, but create a dangerous loss of basic airmanship skills that isn't being compensated for by increasing training requirements for basic instrument skills and airmanship. Unfortunately, not enough people have died yet for things to change...

The new requirements should require that all pilots have to have "hand flown the beech" 1900 where pilots are born and aviators made. Write your senators!!

 

[Amish RakeFight]

The new requirements should require that all pilots have to have "hand flown the beech" 1900 where pilots are born and aviators made. Write your senators!!

That'll be a lot harder, now that GIA is no longer selling the right seat.

 

[hockeypilot44]

In an Airbus, the thrust levers do not move. I could see how this could happen. About 2 years ago, a Northwest A330 had a similar problem. The thrust rolled back and the airspeed indications dropped to 0. The pilots recognized what was going on quickly, turned off the autothrottles, and set the thrust to pretty close to normal settings. A few minutes later, the airspeed indications came back and they were right on speed. The NWA crew was extremely confused as to what was going on, but they kept the aircraft under control. If the pitot tube was blocked, the airspeed indicator probably started acting like an altimeter (private pilot stuff). The guy starts pulling back, the airspeed goes up, he pulls back more, aircraft stalls. Bad piloting might have been part of the problem, but an unusual acting aircraft started the whole thing.

To the naive regional poster who started this post, karma's a bitch. I hope it never comes back to bite you. I truly mean that.

 

[Capi_Cafre']

...Strange for a professional pilot to be staring at 40 degrees nose up and still pulling back on the stick

There's a big difference between 40 degrees AOA and 40 degrees nose up.

 

[JJET44]

If you were to stay on topic you would note that this AF pilot had 3500 hrs..The question is why did he increase pitch when he was at such a low speed. I think you would note that investigators will ask is it poor training or did he not recognize the situation as a low speed stall for some reason.

Think about it!
It's not how much time he had at the time of the crash but how much he had when hired. If he was hired with only 250 hours TT, most of his time is in cruise, crossing the pond, on autopilot, eating French Toast, and French Fries. How long do you think it takes for a international pilot to accumulate 3250 hours? Four years maybe!?!?
IMHO he was more dangerous as time goes on than when he was first hired.

This is assuming he was hired with the absolute minimums.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Think about it!
It's not how much time he had at the time of the crash but how much he had when hired. If he was hired with only 250 hours TT, most of his time is in cruise, crossing the pond, on autopilot, eating French Toast, and French Fries. How long do you think it takes for a international pilot to accumulate 3250 hours? Four years maybe!?!?
IMHO he was more dangerous as time goes on than when he was first hired.

This is assuming he was hired with the absolute minimums.

BINGO!...Airline flying, especially long range airline flying is very mundane and routine. Experience is important...especially teaching, and cargo/charter/multiple cycle short range PIC flying.....Ab Initio straight to a international long range carrier ain't worth squat.

The bigger question is how did they end up in this storm in the first place. Did they know it was there? If not, why not? If they knew it was there, why did they fly into it.

 

[wmuflyguy]

BINGO!...Airline flying, especially long range airline flying is very mundane and routine. Experience is important...especially teaching, and cargo/charter/multiple cycle short range PIC flying.....Ab Initio straight to a international long range carrier ain't worth squat.

The bigger question is how did they end up in this storm in the first place. Did they know it was there? If not, why not? If they knew it was there, why did they fly into it.

From the report, they briefed the cabin and each other about wx ahead and started a deviation.

 

[JoeMerchant]

From the report, they briefed the cabin and each other about wx ahead and started a deviation.

Yes, but they still ended up penetrating a very large cell...How?

Briefing doesn't mean crap...I want to know how they ended up in this cell.