Regional Pay Comparisons

[CLECA]

Like I said, "if those numbers are correct".

"Over" 200+25+60/70=285+ to 295+. Quite a bit more than 245. If the numbers provided are wrong, I retract my statement.

THE ORIGINAL QUESTION OF LARGEST FLEET EAGLE VS XJT WAS FOR EMBs. HAVING SAID THAT CRJ's AND PROPS ARE NOT EMB'S. SO YES XJET HAS THE LARGEST EMBRAER FLEET AND EAGLE HAS A LARGER OVERALL FLEET THAN XJT WHEN YOU COUNT THE PROPS ETC.

One question though, doesn't ExpressJet operate EMB 140/145's?

yeah....largest operator of them in the US...they have 252 of them at present time

 

[NoJoy]

Another financial factor is how long it takes to upgrade in any given equipment. Say 2-4 years vs. 5-10. This is a great website by the way.

 

[ironwedge]

Another financial factor is how long it takes to upgrade in any given equipment. Say 2-4 years vs. 5-10. This is a great website by the way.

Although the pay comparison charts don't reflect that - each airline's pay chart gives the jr. capt. I guess they couldn't find a way to display upgrade time in a meaningful way. Also I read on the APC forum that the charts were only for comparing hourly pay. They admitted that there were other factors that contribute to overall compensation like: medical/dental, 401K, A Plan, B Plan, options, etc. It was stated that for a pilot, hourly rate was the stongest factor in determining W2 earnings potential. For that reason, the charts should be taken with a grain of salt.

I do think it's a great tool for pilot groups. Unless the rank and file knows where they stand in relation to the industry, it's hard to find a effective position at the bargaining table.

 

[detwilers]

Also I read on the APC forum that the charts were only for comparing hourly pay. They admitted that there were other factors that contribute to overall compensation like: medical/dental, 401K, A Plan, B Plan, options, etc. It was stated that for a pilot, hourly rate was the stongest factor in determining W2 earnings potential. For that reason, the charts should be taken with a grain of salt.

I do think it's a great tool for pilot groups. Unless the rank and file knows where they stand in relation to the industry, it's hard to find a effective position at the bargaining table.

I just started at XJT and I already am noticing huge differences in pay from when I was at independence air (besides the fact I am at 1st year pay again). The 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th year pay (what I was at when I left iair) are very close if not the same hourly pay rates as XJT. But on average at iair I was paid for 93 hours my last year there (actually flew about 35 hr a month) AND I was on reserve the entire time. At XJT I have not been able to make more than the 75 min guarantee yet. Also when I was able to hold a hard line at iair I was able to make 100 + hours easily. (Anything over 98 hours was at 200% pay). There was a time when everyone was making 120 hours a month at one point pre 9-11. I knew of a captain who actually was able to make more than 150 hours one month.


The point is I think a better, more meaningful, number would be the total pilot payroll divided by the number of active pilots to get a more accurate number of how "much" a pilot makes which would include soft pay and benefits. I would think one should be able to get those numbers from a 10K or the annual report from publicly traded companies. One day if I have the time I may take that project up.

 

[rstev1955]

I knew of a captain who actually was able to make more than 150 hours one month.

I know there are creative ways to increase your line value without actually flying, but 50 hours more????? I bet the FAA would love to ask him how he flew more than FARs allow in a 30-day period.

and for what it is worth...ExpressJet is the largest operator of regional JETS in the world. They have never claimed anything else.

 

[ArcticFlier]

I know there are creative ways to increase your line value without actually flying, but 50 hours more????? I bet the FAA would love to ask him how he flew more than FARs allow in a 30-day period.

and for what it is worth...ExpressJet is the largest operator of regional JETS in the world. They have never claimed anything else.

It's the difference between credit time versus block time.


AF

 

[detwilers]

I know there are creative ways to increase your line value without actually flying, but 50 hours more????? I bet the FAA would love to ask him how he flew more than FARs allow in a 30-day period.

and for what it is worth...ExpressJet is the largest operator of regional JETS in the world. They have never claimed anything else.

Well, He didn't, I didn't, and no one else flew more than 100 hours in the month. That is the point of my post. Hourly rate alone is not the best way to determine total compensation. It depends on all the fine print in your contract. In the captains case, scheduling was VERY desperate this particular month. Rather than cancel flights you could negotiate with them. e.g. Checking in for a four day trip you get a call from scheduling. Scheduling - "We REALLY need you to deadhead to LGA to do this trip instead". CA - "Sure but I want it above guarantee and at 150%." Scheduling - "Let me check on that" short hold, "OK we ca do it".

Captain does this a couple of times throughout the month and makes 150 hours while actually flying 98 hours. This was not a normal situation and only went on for about a year but for the most part you could get paid for 105 hours if you wanted to work a lot and at the end of the month after you tally it up have flown only 90 hours. This would happen because of above guarantee flying, over-blocking, and any canceled flights during the month would widen the gap between actual hours flown and hours paid.

 

[Nova]

This was not a normal situation and only went on for about a year...

So what's your point for brining it up? We had 150% for open time pickup for a few months back in 2000 and a lot of us were banking 100+ hours for minimal work but such abnormal situations don't make for good comparisons. There are a few clauses in the current XJet contract that permit pilots to make similar overs as well. Unforunately most don't help those on reserve but that's life.

This would happen because of above guarantee flying, over-blocking, and any canceled flights during the month would widen the gap between actual hours flown and hours paid.

And this is unique to Independance? I think most airlines have similar contract language that produces similar results.

I think this tells everything here....

I just started at XJT....

Most of the contract language that generates such extra pay don't pan out for the reserve pilots for the most part. Now with CLE being so short on FO's I'm sure a few of them will be making some extra $$ but they'll be flying quite a bit to get it.

You're right, hourly compensation doesn't paint a full picture of final year end earnings but what are you (or should you) base your lifestyle on? Minimum pay or hypothetical future earnings?

 

[DetoXJ]

YTD Block = 420
YTD Credit = 672

Thru June.

 

[detwilers]

So what's your point for brining it up? We had 150% for open time pickup for a few months back in 2000 and a lot of us were banking 100+ hours for minimal work but such abnormal situations don't make for good comparisons. There are a few clauses in the current XJet contract that permit pilots to make similar overs as well. Unforunately most don't help those on reserve but that's life.

Most of the contract language that generates such extra pay don't pan out for the reserve pilots for the most part. Now with CLE being so short on FO's I'm sure a few of them will be making some extra $$ but they'll be flying quite a bit to get it.

My point was that I was able to get paid for 95 hours a month on reserve with only 35 hours of block. Now I am only able to make 75 hours of pay with the 40 hours of block a month. Yes I realize there are big differences in reserve pay. You think, oh no big deal, you are only on reserve for a couple of months. Well I was on reserve for 3 years. I bid reserve for quality of life reasons. I was hoping to do that here at XJT too. But If I do I will never make as much as I once did even though the hourly rates are similar. I keep a monthly tab on my earnings (credit hours), perdeim, days off, block hours in an excel worksheet. I have been for 4 years now and all I can say is that my bottom line is being affected negatively. It appears, as far as I can tell, that I will have to work slightly more to get paid the same even if I bid a hard line.

You're right, hourly compensation doesn't paint a full picture of final year end earnings but what are you (or should you) base your lifestyle on? Minimum pay or hypothetical future earnings?

No like I said, a truer picture of how much you "make" would be how much money you cost your company at the end of the year. The pilot payroll budget for your company divided by the number of pilots should give you a number that not only includes your W2 earnings but also would include all the soft pay that is a result of other benefits. (e.g. medical benefits, taxes, insurance, contractual reimbursements like uniform allowance, dry cleaning allowance, headset allowance, on-time bonuses, lost bags bonuses, completion factor bonuses, profit sharing, retirement matching, etc)

Like someone stated earlier, take max captain hourly pay with a grain a salt. Many other factors affect total compensation. CHQ ca and a XJT ca hourly pay rates are not that different percentage wise. But FO pay is VERY different. Plus all the soft-pay differences might show that an XJT "pilot" (CA/FO average) would make a certain percentage more per year than a CHQ "pilot". I am curious how the difference in the percentage of hourly pay compares to the percentage of their pilot payroll budgets. I bet XJT pilots cost a lot more than an average CHQ pilot. FO pay is MUCH higher and the benefits at XJT are very good. I am not sure how other soft-pay compare but that is what this number would show. XJT would have a gap over CHQ, Comair would have a gap over indy and indy might have a gap over XJT. I would love to see how they all compare and how that all compares to hourly pay rates to see the differences.

 

[detwilers]

YTD Block = 420
YTD Credit = 672

Thru June.

2004 Numbers

Credit = 1052 hours
Block = 318 hours

 

[rstev1955]

My point was that I was able to get paid for 95 hours a month on reserve with only 35 hours of block.

I am really curious how you could do that over there (not trying to bash you, just curious). Did you have a min guarantee on reserve? If so, can you post where those other 65 hours came from, especially any hours that were over min guarantee without flying more than min guarantee? I have not seen any contract that allows that yet.

Thanks.

 

[jtf]

It probably depends on the amount of pay per day used on reserve. If you get 5 hours if they use you or keep you out of base no matter if you are deadheading or only fly one leg it will add up quick without doing much in the way of flying. To beat guarentee that much without flying much probably required a bunch of days on airport/ ready/ hot reserve that pay at least 5 hours whether or not you fly. There are a lot of regionals that have extra pay for airport reserve and there are always some reserve pilots who will take advantage of the situation to get the most pay possible by volunteering for lots of airport reserve. In theory a reserve pilot with 10 days off in a 31 day month could make 105 hours of pay without getting in the airplane if they sat airport reserve all their reserve days and were never used.

 

[detwilers]

I am really curious how you could do that over there (not trying to bash you, just curious). Did you have a min guarantee on reserve? If so, can you post where those other 65 hours came from, especially any hours that were over min guarantee without flying more than min guarantee? I have not seen any contract that allows that yet.

Thanks.

Happy to share:

The normal guarantee was 75 hours. Last year I was able to average 90 hours a month (I had 6 weeks off for the birth of my baby of which 3 weeks was not paid) Off course there is all the paid time off as well (Vacation 2 weeks stretched into 4 weeks, Sick time, etc) Average days off a month was 19. That includes days on reserve that I was not used but was able to stay home.

There where 2 main reasons why your guarantee would end up in the 90+ hour range. Indy had what was called a reserve bump and airport standby was paid at 4:45 above guarantee.

1. Reserve Bump – Any flying over 3:45 for the day when on reserve bumps your guarantee up to 80 hours max. (e.g. Get a one day trip worth 5:45 credit when on reserve (5:45 – 3:45 = 2 hours) your new guarantee is now 77 hours)

2. Airport standby paid at 4:45 ABOVE guarantee (e.g. If you were assigned airport standby you where deducted 3:45 from TOWARD guarantee and paid 4:45 ABOVE guarantee). In this case if you where assigned airport standby 3 times in one month your new TOWARD guarantee would be lowered or adjusted to 63.75 (3.75 x 3days = 11.25 – 75 = 63.75). You would be able to bump that 63.75 up to 80 hours if you were assigned any trips with credit higher than 3.75 for the day using the reserve bump explained above (To do this you need to be assigned trips with more than 3.75 of credit per day for up to 16.25 hours to bump the 63.75 up to 80 hours). I found it took about 9-11 days of flying a month to get your TOWARD guarantee back to the 80 hour mark. Then when you add in the ABOVE guarantee of the 3 airport standby assignments of 4.75 x 3 to the 80 you would end up with 94.25 hours for the month. Now this is just an example of an average month. Some months you could do worse and sometimes better.

All this required flying 9 to 11 productive days a month plus 3 airport standbys a month; that is it. easy pleasy lemon squeezy

 

[Yank McCobb]

Holy Crap!! What did he just say?!?

 

[tattoo13]

We are the lowest paid...HOWEVER we take pride in the fact that we didnt bend for a BULL SH!T, BRING EVERYONE ELSE DOWN, FKIN CONTRACT like some other pilot group did (you know who you are). We have been fighting for 5+ years and will continue.

 

[rstev1955]

All this required flying 9 to 11 productive days a month plus 3 airport standbys a month; that is it. easy pleasy lemon squeezy

Okay....call me a skeptic. Call me whatever you want. I don't believe there is any contract that will allow a reserve pilot to get 95 hours in a month and only fly 35 hours, regardless of ASB, or "bump."

You say you had 19 days off (that you were not used), and 3 ASB days. That means you flew 8 days, and got 35 hours. That averages to 4.375 hours each day. According to your math, that would increase min guarantee to 8 * 0.625 = 5 hours. That would make 80 hours (if in fact your contract allows this when you havent even met min guarantee yet......which I bet it doesnt). According to what you said, the 3 ASB days lower your min guarantee by 3.75 each ( I already calculated your 35 hours of flying....so you cant fly on ASB), so that brings it back down to 68.75. Again....this is only if you can go above min guarantee without flying above min guarantee, which I bet you can't.

Do you have a pdf of your contract? I would love to see the section on pay, especially for reserves. Care to post it, or cut and paste it?

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Okay....call me a skeptic. Call me whatever you want. I don't believe there is any contract that will allow a reserve pilot to get 95 hours in a month and only fly 35 hours, regardless of ASB, or "bump."

You say you had 19 days off (that you were not used), and 3 ASB days. That means you flew 8 days, and got 35 hours. That averages to 4.375 hours each day. According to your math, that would increase min guarantee to 8 * 0.625 = 5 hours. That would make 80 hours (if in fact your contract allows this when you havent even met min guarantee yet......which I bet it doesnt). According to what you said, the 3 ASB days lower your min guarantee by 3.75 each ( I already calculated your 35 hours of flying....so you cant fly on ASB), so that brings it back down to 68.75. Again....this is only if you can go above min guarantee without flying above min guarantee, which I bet you can't.

Do you have a pdf of your contract? I would love to see the section on pay, especially for reserves. Care to post it, or cut and paste it?

ACA Section 4.A.1

A. Reserve Line holders Bid Period Guarantee



1. All reserve line holders shall be paid credited flight time at the applicable rates with a minimum guarantee of seventy-five hours (75:00) per bid period. A pilot who has the credited flight time, less than seventy-five (75) credited flight hours for the bid period will be paid Actual Block or Scheduled Block, the greater for each day of assigned flying up to a maximum of eighty hours (80:00) for the Bid Period.



If a reserve pilot actually flies more than eighty hours (80:00) during a bid period he will be compensated at a rate of three point seven five (3.75) hours, or scheduled/actual block whichever is greater, at his current rate of pay for each day of scheduled reserve after reaching eighty (80) credited flight hours.



Pilots assigned to ready reserve will be credited with a minimum daily guarantee of 3.75 hours. The ready reserve daily guarantee (3.75 hours) will be deducted from the pilot's monthly guarantee. The pilot will be credited with the greater of 3.75 hours, assigned flight hours, or actual block hours, above guarantee for the day. The pilots adjusted monthly guarantee will be increased to a maximum of 80 hours for all credited, assigned or actual flight hours in excess of 3.75 hours on any regular reserve day (not to include ready reserve assignments). A pilot with more than 80 hours of assigned or actual flight time, towards guarantee, will receive the sum of all credited hours for the month in addition to all hours credited above guarantee.



2. A reserve line holder who is unavailable for duty for part of the bid period will have his bid period guarantee prorated at the rate of three hours and forty-five minutes (3:45) for each reserve day missed.

 

[rstev1955]

Thanks BluDevAv8r. I knew I could count on you to post their contract.


And, just like I presumed, there is no way a reserve pilot can fly 35 hours and be credited for 96. I don't know of ANY contract that allows a reserve pilot to be paid more than guarantee if they dont at least fly guarantee.

 

[detwilers]

Okay....call me a skeptic. Call me whatever you want. I don't believe there is any contract that will allow a reserve pilot to get 95 hours in a month and only fly 35 hours, regardless of ASB, or "bump."

You say you had 19 days off (that you were not used), and 3 ASB days. That means you flew 8 days, and got 35 hours. That averages to 4.375 hours each day. According to your math, that would increase min guarantee to 8 * 0.625 = 5 hours. That would make 80 hours (if in fact your contract allows this when you havent even met min guarantee yet......which I bet it doesnt). According to what you said, the 3 ASB days lower your min guarantee by 3.75 each ( I already calculated your 35 hours of flying....so you cant fly on ASB), so that brings it back down to 68.75. Again....this is only if you can go above min guarantee without flying above min guarantee, which I bet you can't.

Well you can! I don’t know how many other airlines you have flown for but there are still many other good contracts out there especially outside of the regionals. ExpressJet, for the most part, has a very good contract. I just wish the reserve section was better. I think they have neglected that section because the mentality here is you are only on reserve for 2 months and we have bigger fish to fry (MCD issue).



As far as the ACA reserve section above, there was a TA that amended that section slightly early in 2004. For the most part the only difference that matters in this case is that fact that airport standby pay went up to 4:45 from the 3:45 in the section above.



As far as the rest I will attempt to explain. I flew 431.6 hours last year. That is were I come up with the average of 35 hours flown a month. I don’t know why I said 318 in one of my previous post. I think I got it from the 12 month look back feature from my electronic logbook which would make sense because of training at XJT. I just took a look at my excel file for 2004 and I flew 431.6 hours in ‘04. ANYWAY, like I said I had a few periods where I had time off. So 2004 was a little skewed compared to previous years. I was on FMLA for 6 weeks, Vacation for 4 weeks and sick for 3 separate 1 week periods (These were all paid time off except for a short part of the FMLA, the rest of FMLA was paid out of my sick bank). That adds up to 3 months off, paid for all intents and purposes. If you divide the 431.6 by the 9 months that I was flying in the year then you get an average of 48 hours a month. SO on average the months I was flying I was actually flying 48 hours. Here are a couple of months, copy and pasted, from my records that were not affected by FMLA, vacation, or sick time. Remember for days off, I count actual days off plus the days on duty when I did not work.

May
Pay – Hours 93.3
Pay – Dollars 3401
Per Diem – Hours 141.9
Per Diem – Dollars 241
Total Pay – Dollars 3642
Block Time – Hours 40.9
Days off – 18

July
Pay – Hours 92.2
Pay – Dollars 3263
Per Diem – Hours 126.5
Per Diem – Dollars 202
Total Pay – Dollars 3465
Block Time – Hours 31.8
Days off – 19

June – 2 weeks of vacation in the first part of the month
Pay – Hours 80.7
Pay – Dollars 2946
Per Diem – Hours 68.6
Per Diem – Dollars 116
Total Pay – Dollars 3062
Block Time – Hours 24.2
Days off – 21

These are the numbers plain and simple. I knew a few FO’s that put themselves on call me first while on reserve. These guys where able to do much better in the pay area than me! For me though time at home with my wife who was on bed rest for the last 5 months of pregnancy and the birth of my daughter was more important and hence my pay was not quite as good as others.