Regional Pay Comparisons

[detwilers]

YTD Block = 420
YTD Credit = 672

Thru June.

2004 Numbers

Credit = 1052 hours
Block = 318 hours

 

[rstev1955]

My point was that I was able to get paid for 95 hours a month on reserve with only 35 hours of block.

I am really curious how you could do that over there (not trying to bash you, just curious). Did you have a min guarantee on reserve? If so, can you post where those other 65 hours came from, especially any hours that were over min guarantee without flying more than min guarantee? I have not seen any contract that allows that yet.

Thanks.

 

[jtf]

It probably depends on the amount of pay per day used on reserve. If you get 5 hours if they use you or keep you out of base no matter if you are deadheading or only fly one leg it will add up quick without doing much in the way of flying. To beat guarentee that much without flying much probably required a bunch of days on airport/ ready/ hot reserve that pay at least 5 hours whether or not you fly. There are a lot of regionals that have extra pay for airport reserve and there are always some reserve pilots who will take advantage of the situation to get the most pay possible by volunteering for lots of airport reserve. In theory a reserve pilot with 10 days off in a 31 day month could make 105 hours of pay without getting in the airplane if they sat airport reserve all their reserve days and were never used.

 

[detwilers]

I am really curious how you could do that over there (not trying to bash you, just curious). Did you have a min guarantee on reserve? If so, can you post where those other 65 hours came from, especially any hours that were over min guarantee without flying more than min guarantee? I have not seen any contract that allows that yet.

Thanks.

Happy to share:

The normal guarantee was 75 hours. Last year I was able to average 90 hours a month (I had 6 weeks off for the birth of my baby of which 3 weeks was not paid) Off course there is all the paid time off as well (Vacation 2 weeks stretched into 4 weeks, Sick time, etc) Average days off a month was 19. That includes days on reserve that I was not used but was able to stay home.

There where 2 main reasons why your guarantee would end up in the 90+ hour range. Indy had what was called a reserve bump and airport standby was paid at 4:45 above guarantee.

1. Reserve Bump – Any flying over 3:45 for the day when on reserve bumps your guarantee up to 80 hours max. (e.g. Get a one day trip worth 5:45 credit when on reserve (5:45 – 3:45 = 2 hours) your new guarantee is now 77 hours)

2. Airport standby paid at 4:45 ABOVE guarantee (e.g. If you were assigned airport standby you where deducted 3:45 from TOWARD guarantee and paid 4:45 ABOVE guarantee). In this case if you where assigned airport standby 3 times in one month your new TOWARD guarantee would be lowered or adjusted to 63.75 (3.75 x 3days = 11.25 – 75 = 63.75). You would be able to bump that 63.75 up to 80 hours if you were assigned any trips with credit higher than 3.75 for the day using the reserve bump explained above (To do this you need to be assigned trips with more than 3.75 of credit per day for up to 16.25 hours to bump the 63.75 up to 80 hours). I found it took about 9-11 days of flying a month to get your TOWARD guarantee back to the 80 hour mark. Then when you add in the ABOVE guarantee of the 3 airport standby assignments of 4.75 x 3 to the 80 you would end up with 94.25 hours for the month. Now this is just an example of an average month. Some months you could do worse and sometimes better.

All this required flying 9 to 11 productive days a month plus 3 airport standbys a month; that is it. easy pleasy lemon squeezy

 

[Yank McCobb]

Holy Crap!! What did he just say?!?

 

[tattoo13]

We are the lowest paid...HOWEVER we take pride in the fact that we didnt bend for a BULL SH!T, BRING EVERYONE ELSE DOWN, FKIN CONTRACT like some other pilot group did (you know who you are). We have been fighting for 5+ years and will continue.

 

[rstev1955]

All this required flying 9 to 11 productive days a month plus 3 airport standbys a month; that is it. easy pleasy lemon squeezy

Okay....call me a skeptic. Call me whatever you want. I don't believe there is any contract that will allow a reserve pilot to get 95 hours in a month and only fly 35 hours, regardless of ASB, or "bump."

You say you had 19 days off (that you were not used), and 3 ASB days. That means you flew 8 days, and got 35 hours. That averages to 4.375 hours each day. According to your math, that would increase min guarantee to 8 * 0.625 = 5 hours. That would make 80 hours (if in fact your contract allows this when you havent even met min guarantee yet......which I bet it doesnt). According to what you said, the 3 ASB days lower your min guarantee by 3.75 each ( I already calculated your 35 hours of flying....so you cant fly on ASB), so that brings it back down to 68.75. Again....this is only if you can go above min guarantee without flying above min guarantee, which I bet you can't.

Do you have a pdf of your contract? I would love to see the section on pay, especially for reserves. Care to post it, or cut and paste it?

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Okay....call me a skeptic. Call me whatever you want. I don't believe there is any contract that will allow a reserve pilot to get 95 hours in a month and only fly 35 hours, regardless of ASB, or "bump."

You say you had 19 days off (that you were not used), and 3 ASB days. That means you flew 8 days, and got 35 hours. That averages to 4.375 hours each day. According to your math, that would increase min guarantee to 8 * 0.625 = 5 hours. That would make 80 hours (if in fact your contract allows this when you havent even met min guarantee yet......which I bet it doesnt). According to what you said, the 3 ASB days lower your min guarantee by 3.75 each ( I already calculated your 35 hours of flying....so you cant fly on ASB), so that brings it back down to 68.75. Again....this is only if you can go above min guarantee without flying above min guarantee, which I bet you can't.

Do you have a pdf of your contract? I would love to see the section on pay, especially for reserves. Care to post it, or cut and paste it?

ACA Section 4.A.1

A. Reserve Line holders Bid Period Guarantee



1. All reserve line holders shall be paid credited flight time at the applicable rates with a minimum guarantee of seventy-five hours (75:00) per bid period. A pilot who has the credited flight time, less than seventy-five (75) credited flight hours for the bid period will be paid Actual Block or Scheduled Block, the greater for each day of assigned flying up to a maximum of eighty hours (80:00) for the Bid Period.



If a reserve pilot actually flies more than eighty hours (80:00) during a bid period he will be compensated at a rate of three point seven five (3.75) hours, or scheduled/actual block whichever is greater, at his current rate of pay for each day of scheduled reserve after reaching eighty (80) credited flight hours.



Pilots assigned to ready reserve will be credited with a minimum daily guarantee of 3.75 hours. The ready reserve daily guarantee (3.75 hours) will be deducted from the pilot's monthly guarantee. The pilot will be credited with the greater of 3.75 hours, assigned flight hours, or actual block hours, above guarantee for the day. The pilots adjusted monthly guarantee will be increased to a maximum of 80 hours for all credited, assigned or actual flight hours in excess of 3.75 hours on any regular reserve day (not to include ready reserve assignments). A pilot with more than 80 hours of assigned or actual flight time, towards guarantee, will receive the sum of all credited hours for the month in addition to all hours credited above guarantee.



2. A reserve line holder who is unavailable for duty for part of the bid period will have his bid period guarantee prorated at the rate of three hours and forty-five minutes (3:45) for each reserve day missed.

 

[rstev1955]

Thanks BluDevAv8r. I knew I could count on you to post their contract.


And, just like I presumed, there is no way a reserve pilot can fly 35 hours and be credited for 96. I don't know of ANY contract that allows a reserve pilot to be paid more than guarantee if they dont at least fly guarantee.

 

[detwilers]

Okay....call me a skeptic. Call me whatever you want. I don't believe there is any contract that will allow a reserve pilot to get 95 hours in a month and only fly 35 hours, regardless of ASB, or "bump."

You say you had 19 days off (that you were not used), and 3 ASB days. That means you flew 8 days, and got 35 hours. That averages to 4.375 hours each day. According to your math, that would increase min guarantee to 8 * 0.625 = 5 hours. That would make 80 hours (if in fact your contract allows this when you havent even met min guarantee yet......which I bet it doesnt). According to what you said, the 3 ASB days lower your min guarantee by 3.75 each ( I already calculated your 35 hours of flying....so you cant fly on ASB), so that brings it back down to 68.75. Again....this is only if you can go above min guarantee without flying above min guarantee, which I bet you can't.

Well you can! I don’t know how many other airlines you have flown for but there are still many other good contracts out there especially outside of the regionals. ExpressJet, for the most part, has a very good contract. I just wish the reserve section was better. I think they have neglected that section because the mentality here is you are only on reserve for 2 months and we have bigger fish to fry (MCD issue).



As far as the ACA reserve section above, there was a TA that amended that section slightly early in 2004. For the most part the only difference that matters in this case is that fact that airport standby pay went up to 4:45 from the 3:45 in the section above.



As far as the rest I will attempt to explain. I flew 431.6 hours last year. That is were I come up with the average of 35 hours flown a month. I don’t know why I said 318 in one of my previous post. I think I got it from the 12 month look back feature from my electronic logbook which would make sense because of training at XJT. I just took a look at my excel file for 2004 and I flew 431.6 hours in ‘04. ANYWAY, like I said I had a few periods where I had time off. So 2004 was a little skewed compared to previous years. I was on FMLA for 6 weeks, Vacation for 4 weeks and sick for 3 separate 1 week periods (These were all paid time off except for a short part of the FMLA, the rest of FMLA was paid out of my sick bank). That adds up to 3 months off, paid for all intents and purposes. If you divide the 431.6 by the 9 months that I was flying in the year then you get an average of 48 hours a month. SO on average the months I was flying I was actually flying 48 hours. Here are a couple of months, copy and pasted, from my records that were not affected by FMLA, vacation, or sick time. Remember for days off, I count actual days off plus the days on duty when I did not work.

May
Pay – Hours 93.3
Pay – Dollars 3401
Per Diem – Hours 141.9
Per Diem – Dollars 241
Total Pay – Dollars 3642
Block Time – Hours 40.9
Days off – 18

July
Pay – Hours 92.2
Pay – Dollars 3263
Per Diem – Hours 126.5
Per Diem – Dollars 202
Total Pay – Dollars 3465
Block Time – Hours 31.8
Days off – 19

June – 2 weeks of vacation in the first part of the month
Pay – Hours 80.7
Pay – Dollars 2946
Per Diem – Hours 68.6
Per Diem – Dollars 116
Total Pay – Dollars 3062
Block Time – Hours 24.2
Days off – 21

These are the numbers plain and simple. I knew a few FO’s that put themselves on call me first while on reserve. These guys where able to do much better in the pay area than me! For me though time at home with my wife who was on bed rest for the last 5 months of pregnancy and the birth of my daughter was more important and hence my pay was not quite as good as others.

 

[detwilers]

ACA Section 4.A.1

A. Reserve Line holders Bid Period Guarantee


The pilots adjusted monthly guarantee will be increased to a maximum of 80 hours for all credited, assigned or actual flight hours in excess of 3.75 hours on any regular reserve day (not to include ready reserve assignments). A pilot with more than 80 hours of assigned or actual flight time, towards guarantee, will receive the sum of all credited hours for the month in addition to all hours credited above guarantee.

This is the magic section in the contract. Read is carefully. You have to remember that once you were able to get your TOWARD guarantee back up to 80 hours you still have to add in the ABOVE guarantee stuff. Most of the ABOVE guarantee stuff was airport standby but there were many ways to get ABOVE guarantee. For one if you picked up a trip or reserve day on a day off then that day was ABOVE guarantee.


So… when you added the ABOVE to the TOWARD of 80 hours, I usually ended up in the low 90 hours while some actually where in the high 90's.


One more thing to add. We were able to trade reserve day with ourselves. When you traded a reserve day to a day off the new reserve day is now paid ABOVE guarantee because it was originally a day off. You could do a couple of trades in the month if you did not get airport standby and this would have the same affect.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Well you can! I don’t know how many other airlines you have flown for but there are still many other good contracts out there especially outside of the regionals. ExpressJet, for the most part, has a very good contract. I just wish the reserve section was better. I think they have neglected that section because the mentality here is you are only on reserve for 2 months and we have bigger fish to fry (MCD issue).

SayAgain,

Just to clarify - We spent over a year on the scheduling section of the contract and the reserve portion of the scheduling section was the very first area to be tackled in that section. A LOT of negotiating capital was spent on the reserve section since Contract 97's reserve section pretty much sucked and allowed the company to do whatever they pleased with a reserve. Below I've pasted the highlights of the reserve section in a bullet pointed format. This is taken directly from the contract road show materials that we used to explain the new contract. By looking at the bullet points you can see the new additions to the reserve section and can somewhat glean how bad we had it before. If you want a copy of our old contract to compare, PM me. Seriously, I cannot stress how huge some of these improvements were. As to the MCD issue, that was one of these last things negotiated and the reserve section was done well in advance of that provision.

-Neal


Reserves



· 12 days off in a 31-day bid period and 11 days off in a 30-day bid period.



· Reserves will no longer have days off pro-rated in a vacation month.



· Reserve call-out system significantly improved – new system is consistent, easy to follow, and predictable.



· 12-hour Long-Call/ 2-hour Short-Call reserve call out system.



· Long-Call pilots have 2 hours to respond to Scheduling’s initial phone call.



· Will Fly/No Preference system for reserves for both long call and short call pilots.



· Pilots will have access to reserve availability screen in CCS (CMRAV).



· Except for training or consolidation of skills and knowledge, assignments to reserves will not be made more than 48 hours prior to the report time of the trip.



· Open time order of assignment improved and clarified with provisions for “green” pilots to get off “high minimums” as fast as possible.



· Reserve pilot has option of checking CCS for release at end of trip instead of calling Crew Scheduling.



· Upon completion of a trip, reserve pilot can be reassigned or released to domicile rest/days off but cannot be put back on phone availability.



· Airport Standby (ASB)

• • On last day of reserve, pilots cannot be assigned ASB after 1300.

• • If a pilot completes a flight assignment and is then assigned ASB, he will be credited for each event separately.

• • Company may not move a reserve pilot’s day off for purposes of assigning ASB.

• • Company may not Junior Man a reserve pilot for ASB.

• • Credit value of ASB increased from 3.75 hours to 4.0 hours.

· Volunteer list for out-of-domicile reserve.



· A reserve whose day off is rolled will have his day off restored and be paid 150% for the rolled day.

 

[detwilers]

Neal: thanks for the info. I was ignorant of the fact. I do know that reserve has come a LONG was in the past few years at most of the regionals. Mainly due the Witlow rest rules, Al Gores advent of the internet, and lot of hard work from the unions. I really do appreciate all the hard work to union does, plain and simple.

With that said what do you think the chance of getting rid of first in first out and going to strictly seniority for the reserve order and the ability to trade/pickup reserve days. It seems the latter would help all parties and should not take any negotiating capital? Unless of course there is the computer programming problem.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Neal: thanks for the info. I was ignorant of the fact. I do know that reserve has come a LONG was in the past few years at most of the regionals. Mainly due the Witlow rest rules, Al Gores advent of the internet, and lot of hard work from the unions. I really do appreciate all the hard work to union does, plain and simple.

Whitlow was a big improvement but not nearly the improvement that was needed and so the lion's share of the needed improvements must come through the bargaining process.

With that said what do you think the chance of getting rid of first in first out and going to strictly seniority for the reserve order and the ability to trade/pickup reserve days. It seems the latter would help all parties and should not take any negotiating capital? Unless of course there is the computer programming problem.

I'm not sure if you are on reserve at XJT but if you think we have a FIFO system, I think you need to reread our reserve call-out section. We have no mention anywhere in our entire contract of FIFO. It is based on a leveling system for the no-preferences and seniority for the will-fly's. Below is the appropriate section (Section 21.I.6). The formatting might be messed up so go to the actual contract for a better version.

1. Reserve Pilot Categories and Assignments

a. A reserve pilot will be placed into a category (“bucket”) each day according to the number of available reserve days that are remaining in his current block of reserve days.

b. A reserve pilot with 5 or more reserve days available in a block will be placed into the 4-day bucket.

c. A reserve pilot may select will fly for a block of reserve days by notifying Crew Scheduling at least 48 hours before the first day of the reserve block.

d. If a pilot does not select will-fly, he will be considered no-preference.

e. Airport standby may be assigned to any reserve pilot available. However, airport standby will be assigned to a will-fly pilot before it is assigned to a no-preference pilot who has the same number of reserve days available.

f. Assignments to reserve pilots will be made in the following order:

Long-call/will-fly in seniority order in the bucket that contains the same number of reserve days available as the days of the assignment.

Long-call/will-fly in seniority order in a bucket that contains 1 more day of reserve availability than the assignment requires. The Company may also give an assignment to a long-call/will-fly pilot in seniority order in a bucket that contains more than 1 additional day of reserve availability.

Long-call/no-preference in reverse order of line value, lowest credit hours first, in the bucket that contains the same number of reserve days as the days in the assignment. If more than 1 pilot has the same line value, they will be assigned in reverse seniority order.

Long-call/no-preference in reverse order of line value, lowest credit hours first, in a bucket that contains 1 more day of reserve availability than the assignment requires. If more than 1 pilot has the same line value, they will be assigned in reverse seniority order. The Company may give an assignment to a long-call/no-preference pilot in a bucket that contains more than 1 additional day of reserve availability.

Short-call/will-fly in seniority order within the bucket that contains the same number of reserve days as the days in the assignment and within the same phone availability period selected to cover the assignment.

Short-call/will-fly in seniority order in a bucket that contains 1 more day of reserve availability than the assignment requires and within the same phone availability period selected to cover the assignment. The Company may also give an assignment to a short-call/will-fly pilot in seniority order in a bucket that contains more than 1 additional day of reserve availability and within the same phone availability period selected to cover the assignment.

Short-call/no-preference in reverse order of line value, lowest credit hours first, in the bucket that contains the same number of reserve days available as the days in the assignment and within the same phone availability period selected to cover the assignment. If more than one pilot has the same line value, they will be assigned in reverse seniority order.

Short-call/no-preference in reverse order of line value, lowest credit hours first, in a bucket that contains 1 more day of reserve availability than the assignment requires and within the same phone availability period selected to cover the assignment. If more than 1 pilot has the same line value, they will be assigned in reverse seniority order. The Company may give an assignment to a short-call/no-preference pilot in a bucket that contains more than 1 additional day of reserve availability and within the same phone availability period selected to cover the assignment.

Any remaining available reserve pilot.

g. Notwithstanding I.6.f., above, a reserve pilot who has a line value of 52 or more credit hours in a bid period will be bypassed until all other available reserve pilots have a line value of at least 52 credit hours. If all available reserve pilots have a line value of at least 52 credit hours, assignments to reserve pilots will be made in the order set forth in I.6.f., above. The Company and the Association may agree to modify the credit hour value in this paragraph.

 

[detwilers]

Neal: Yes I am on reserve here. I was planning on bidding reserve for the foreseeable future too. I have read the contract. The words "first in first out" that I am referring to come from CCS. At the top of the page under reserve availability...

CMRSVE CREW MANAGEMENT SYSTEM T2272100
COEX RESERVE AVAILABILITY REPORT PAGE: 04
SEQ BY: FIRST IN FIRST OUT

So sorry if I used the wrong term. Let me rephrase then... What is the chance of going away from the "leveling system" and going to strictly seniority for the no preference guys? Is there a benefit to the company to have the leveling system over seniority order?

I must say goodbye my wife is mad that I am not pulling my weight with the chores. I have been ordered to turn off the computer for the day and so back to work I go.