Regional Airline future

[Kaman]

A national seniority list is a noble idea, but one that has absolutely ZERO chance of happening in real life.....EVER.

The reason why is threefold:

1. Pilots, as a whole, are notoriously selfish and greedy. There is absolutely no way you will EVER see most pilots vote on something for the greater good of the industry if it stands to jeopardize their position one iota. This simply WILL NOT HAPPEN. You want proof? Check out a few of the posts on this very thread. General Lee is one shining example of airline pilot greed. He's got his, and could give a flying rat's a$$ if you live or die.

There are many senior guys and junior guys alike that love to preach and chest thump, but when it comes time to actually DO something, like vote on a small paycut or something like that to improve the QOL of reserves, they won't do it. There are tons of handy dandy excuses like "well you should get it for nothing", or "we shouldn't have to take a pay cut for anything", or any number of other ridiculous examples. It's all bull$hit. There is one simple fact that you cannot ignore: PILOTS ARE SELFISH BY NATURE. Most of us are strong type A personalities. Basically, we're right and everybody else is wrong. Selfish by nature. I'm not preaching from a soapbox here, I'm the exact same damn way. The only difference between myself and other guys is that I don't try to lie about it.

I live on min guarantee, very well I might add. Every day at my airline I hear someone bitching about how there is no open time to pick up. I could give a crap. Learn to live with less, dude, otherwise, I'm not your fcking therapist. I don't care about your problems unless you pay me $500 bucks an hour plus the cost of whining Kleenex.

I may be selfish, but I don't give a crap. I see it every damn day, and I guess it's turned me into a misanthrope. I care about myself and my family. I love my wife and my little girl more than life itself, and there isn't a soul on this planet I wouldn't crush under the heel of my boot if it meant bettering their life. That's the truth, whether you like it or not. I would assume not, because most people prefer bull$hit validation.

2. Management will NEVER ALLOW IT. Think about this for a second: What does management have to gain from allowing a national seniority list? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. In fact, they stand to lose more than you are probably considering. Right now, thanks to the seniority system, (which, in my opinion, is the most detrimental career killing tool that management has to use against pilots), management never has to worry about losing people to the competition. EVER. Once you become invested in an airline, any airline, for a certain amount of time, it becomes a losing proposition for you to leave, no matter how many $hit sandwiches management feeds you. Hell, you have mid seniority regional captains that wouldn't go to Delta tomorrow if you offered them a job simply because the math doesn't add up. There are more variables than I can name, but in the rest of the real world, making a move like that would be an absolute no brainer! But not with the seniority system. With the seniority system, you have to start as an FO, on the bottom, in the junior base, on reserve, on first year pay no matter how qualified or how experienced you are. I could be typed in every single aircraft on Delta's certificate, with over 3,000 PIC in each type, and also have 100 moon landings and a space shuttle type, (unrealistic I know, but grant me it for the sake of the example), and I'm still dead last on the list in the right seat sitting reserve in a $hitty base for first year pay. The rest of the real world marketplace doesn't work like that, which is why there is significantly higher starting pay, better benefits, etc. for doctors, engineers, and other educated professionals similar to us. The seniority system is a KILLER. It has cost pilots so much over the years, even though most swear by it and have absolutely no clue of the reality of how much it has hurt us.

For a guy making six figures living in base getting 16-17 days a month off and 4 weeks of vacation, starting over isn't necessarily that attractive a proposition. Management knows this, and uses it to a HUGE advantage. If there were a national seniority list, American would be out of business in a year or less, because they would lose so many pilots they would NEVER be able to keep up. Management would lose the ability to impose cuts on pilots because their workforce would just give them the finger and go somewhere else. Right now, we do not have the ability to do that, which is a HUGE advantage for managment. When I flew corporate/charter. If someone started treating me like $hit, I would take my $30K type rating and tell them to bite my a$$. I'd soon have a job somewhere else, for equal or better pay and benefits. Essentially, companies are FORCED to treat people at the very least OK, because if they don't, they're shelling out $20-$40K type ratings on a regular basis, and that gets expensive. In the airlines, this is nonexistent, and it is a HUGE detremint to pilots.

3. There will never be true unity in the airline industry, much less over this issue. I wouldn't want it because of my greed, either. I'm still relatively young and can afford to make a move. If I have old guys coming in on top of the all the time, how in the hell am I supposed to ever advance my career? Screw them. I want mine.

It's harsh, but it's the truth. The truth hurts most of the time. Quite simply, you will NEVER, EVER, IN A MILLION YEARS get airline pilots together as a cohesive group that wants the best for everyone. IT'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN. Hell, look at this message board. Look at USAir/America West. Look at JetBlue. Hell, look at the Delta TA vote and the fighting over it. We can't even get pilots to agree with each other AT THE SAME AIRLINE. You really think all pilots industry wide are going to be singing kumbaya any time soon?

I didn't think so.

The truth hurts, folks, but there it is. Enjoy.

Damn, I feel sexually aroused after that tirade...Good job, now go have a few adult beverages and take a nice healthy dump and you will feel better in the morning...

 

[bri5150]

I think a national pay rate and work rules are needed more than a national seniority list. If you fly a crj-200 and have x amount of years of longevity then you make the same whether you are at Delta, Pinnacle, or Great Lakes. You will still have the issue of more senior carriers, but a lot of the problems of undercutting would be solved. Of course, all carriers would have to be unionized by the same union I guess. Oh well.

 

[cldsfr79]

Yes, the seniority system is broken, and is probably the one main reason I may never leave my cushy fractional job, but a national seniority list is not the answer.

It will only really benefit those already on top (captains). Think about it, your at "x" airline, your competitor "y" is struggling (shrinking/bankrupt) so "x" moves in for the kill and starts expanding. You're an FO with "x" and now you get to upgrade or at least move to a better plane/base/schedule. Now if it was a national seniority list, movement within ranks would stall out. What would happen is that pilots from "y" would just change uniforms and work for "x". Sorry about your upgrade mr. "X" FO, better luck next time.

Our world is like a simmering pot of water, lots of movement. A single seniority list would possibly change a simmering pot to a stagnant pond. Anyone at the bottom will never get any oxygen.

Second example. Pilot "Bob" is one of those 10% of pilots who really shouldn't be in this career. AA, UA, Delta, and everyone else wouldn't even touch him. He failed test, sim rides, and didn't have the background, skill or knowledge for the job but he got a job flying cargo for a fly-by-night, duck tape operator. He happens to now be part of single seniority list. Now he wearing an AA uniform, a place that didn't want him near their planes.

Just my 2 cents.

Here's a CRAZY idea: How about you pay pilots all the same? Isn't "seat" pay the real problem with this industry? We are all professionals, all trained the same way, why the huge gap in seat pay (sometimes a 60% difference)? Why? Because the PIC signs the book and is responsible for the plane? I laugh at that. I'm a PIC too and my partner is just as responsible for that plane if something happens as I am. Equal pay is fair. Maybe even allow guys to "swap" seats day to day. Everyone can be captain trained and qualified. Sounds scary doesn't it? Captain-captain flying already occurs at some fractionals. Works fine.

 

[JustaNumber]

Nah, I don't like the idea of equal seat pay and sharing. Imagine someone with 20 years experience on an airplane, having to sit right seat to a new hire. The new hire will be (or at least should be) constantly deferring to the experienced guy's judgement. So it doesn't work to give the new guy the last word in a dispute over the correct course of action, which is essentially the main role of a captain. It would be confusing and dangerous.

 

[ex j-41]

I think all CRJ's/ERJ's should pay the same with all companies. Maybe have only 5 year scale as well. If every company that flew 737's had the same pay scale then management couldn't say labor is the problem. Same retirements etc....

 

[Kaman]

I originally posted this because the only way to bring change about is to "stir the hornets nest" and not that my ideas are the solution. Perhaps the battle of fair compensation is what this really boils down to. Personally, I think that the "Genie" that got out of the bottle in the early 90s might be very difficult to get back in there again.
There is much debate over whether deregulation has been a good or bad thing for the airline industry. Even though it has had a negative impact upon the airline pilot profession, deregulation has been a positive overall for the consumer and the marketplace, which should really dictate what companies thrive and which ones fail in a free-market society. The government should only have limited power to manipulate the marketplace or drive pricing.
Scope is where the battle really should be fought, and in my view the only place where some measure of victory can take place for labor (specifically pilots). When the CRJ came on the scene in 1992, and the various codeshare agreements and contracting schemes, ALPA really let the ship sail without us on that, and didn't use enough foresight to see that overall it was going to kill mainline jobs.
Now, 20 years later...regional airlines that were once just operating smaller turboprops with only interline/marketing agreements have become CPAs/ASAs that place all the advantage with the mainline who can put up their flying for competitive bid. This places the burden of cost on the regional partner and minimizes the mainline's risk and gets them their lift into hubs FAR cheaper than flying a large fleet of 737/DC-9s like they all once did.
SCOPE is where a firm stand has to be made...The more flying the better at the mainline, BUT what happens in the meantime? Another ugly period in our profession with an even more uncertain future as consolidation trickles down to the regional sector, pilots that counted on a "career" at a regional suddenly facing loss of jobs, reduced benefits, less favorable work rules. Very troubling times in which we live...

 

[General Lee]

The inherent problem with the American pilot profession is that it has nothing to do with experience or skill. We end up with highly qualified pilots in dead-end jobs, or no job at all. Pilots at Fedex and Southwest who make the most money, but when they were hired were often the least desirable. And pilots like General Lee, who hit the lotto jackpot and flaunt it with their sense of superiority and entitlement.

Say what? Superiority and entitlement? Really? I believe there shouldn't be a National seniority list because nobody forces you to go to a job. If you only want to fly for one particular airline, then only apply there. It's that simple. As far as my views in this industry and what will happen to the regionals, I think their numbers will decrease, but there will still be RJs flying due to their relative cheapness compared to overall costs at the Majors, and that includes every job, ramp to pilot to upper management. I think there will be lots of upcoming retirements that will help move pilots up to the Majors if they want to go, but those remaining will see their choices wane. The likes of Gojets and their cheaper costs will become the "model" Major CEOs like, and they will be awarded more feed if they become the cheapest.

This last decade has been very tough on this industry. First 9-11, then BKs, then age 65. Unbelievable stagnation for everyone except Regional pilots, who enjoyed growth until passengers discovered they were uncomfortable on longer stages, and CEOs discovered they were very inefficient with higher oil prices. It was bound to happen, and that isn't an example of superiority, rather just fact. If you want to get out of the regionals, stay out of trouble and apply as the retirements increase. If you don't, your regional may end up looking like Gojets in a year or two.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[CapnVegetto]

Nah, I don't like the idea of equal seat pay and sharing. Imagine someone with 20 years experience on an airplane, having to sit right seat to a new hire. The new hire will be (or at least should be) constantly deferring to the experienced guy's judgement. So it doesn't work to give the new guy the last word in a dispute over the correct course of action, which is essentially the main role of a captain. It would be confusing and dangerous.

It's been that way for years in the corporate world. None of this "I'm the Captain" bull$hit. You both make a decision and agree with it before anything happens. If you can't work it out as professionals then you have bigger problems then what seat you sit in.

I once ran into a couple of guys in TEB flying a Global Express, back when I was brand new and didn't know any better. I asked them which one was the captain. They looked at each other and laughed. One of them said this:

"Dude, at the beginning of a trip, we flip a coin. Whoever loses is the captain."

 

[JustaNumber]

CapnVegetto,
That's amusing, and very interesting. I could see it working with most crewmember pairings, but not all. Has there never been a case where two type-A a-holes fly together (don't kid yourself, every airline has about 5-10%), where one has significantly more experience than the other? I'd rather the a-hole with the experience wins that battle of wills.

On the topic of letting the free market determine compensation, I think scope works in the opposite direction, causing misallocation of resources not necessarily justified by demand, and a further artificial distortion of compensation levels for everyone.

I think a better solution would involve getting the government to do one of the things it was originally designed to do--preventing fraud and deception in transactions. Why is it that I am PROHIBITED from saying the name of my company in my PAs? I should be REQUIRED to say it. The mainline carriers have been so successful in creating a "seamless travel experience", that I guarantee you that the majority of pax think they're still flying on mainline, with mainline pilots. When a Colgan flight crashes due to inexperienced, fatigued pilots, every passenger in the country says, "whew, good thing I only buy my tickets from name-brand airlines on Travelocity!"

The day passengers have to actually click on the Colgan name to purchase a ride on a Colgan airplane is the day the free market will begin to adequately compensate regional pilots.

 

[pilotyip]

The inherent problem with the American pilot profession is that it has nothing to do with experience or skill. We end up with highly qualified pilots in dead-end jobs, or no job at all. Pilots at Fedex and Southwest who make the most money, but when they were hired were often the least desirable. And pilots like General Lee, who hit the lotto jackpot and flaunt it with their sense of superiority and entitlement.

How to cope with the airline industry. After 11 jobs since leaving the Navy, I have adopted another slogan, "Expect nothing and you will never be disappointed” I know it sounds like having no drive, ambition or goals, but that is not the case. There is so much in this business you have absolutely no control over, these effect your job. To fret unnecessarily over those things causes ulcers, it is not worth it. Getting depressed over stupid things that you have no control over is not worth it. By expecting nothing, it will always be better than nothing. Life is a ball.

 

[CapnVegetto]

CapnVegetto,
That's amusing, and very interesting. I could see it working with most crewmember pairings, but not all. Has there never been a case where two type-A a-holes fly together (don't kid yourself, every airline has about 5-10%), where one has significantly more experience than the other? I'd rather the a-hole with the experience wins that battle of wills.

I see what you're saying, but if you've never flown corporate, it's a bit more difficult to process. Seniority in the corporate world, like the rest of the workplace in pretty much every industry, is only a part of the equation. It's not the WHOLE THING. In my opinion, that is how it should be. In the airlines, it doesn't matter whether or not you're worth a $hit, it only matters how long you've been there.

There are A-holes in corporate, too, trust me. The difference is, thanks to there being no unions and seniority systems to fight their incompetence and save their job, they don't last long.

As far as experience meaning you are always right, there are a lot of dead bodies piled up because some senior captain thought he was right and wouldn't listen to his junior FO who was ACTUALLY right.

The Air France airplane that fell in the ocean a few years ago?
American MD80 in LIT?
Air Florida (I think it was) 737?

The list goes on and on.

I guess there is no right or wrong answer, you can find examples on either end. But I've been in both worlds, and I'm a far bigger fan of how things are done in the 91/135 world.

 

[JustaNumber]

All good points, cap'n. Thanks for the different perspective.

 

[Freebrd]

and what will happen to the regionals, I think their numbers will decrease, but there will still be RJs flying due to their relative cheapness compared to overall costs at the Majors
Bye Bye---General Lee

Yeah you PUTZ, but you caved again for $$$$ and a wet dream of a Capt slot on the 717 and allowed the regionals more 7-900s didn't you PUTZ! Oh sure you'll get rid of some 200s but at XJet those will be deployed to the caribean to fly for AA. You in particular folded so quickly on your TA it was nauseating to witness. PUTZ!

 

[joepilot29]

Personally I would like to see the regionals disappear. Not a fan of CRJ's after flying one the last 6 years. Flown all 3 crj's ie 50/70/90 and yet it's still an CRJ. Cramped cockpit in all 3 and crap pay which has become part of the job thanks too the typical low ballers that appear every year. Go Jets being the most recent. Funny flying into Nashville and seeing Freedom's whole fleet parked across the ramp!

I would love to see all the legacy carriers pull all the flying back in house. Obviously will not happen but one can dream! Most of my fleet is parked in Rockford or Kingman waiting to be turned into beer cans! Long live Comair! Hopefully the life support will be pulled after Sept!

P.S. I was hired after the strike and didn't know any better.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

I see what you're saying, but if you've never flown corporate, it's a bit more difficult to process. Seniority in the corporate world, like the rest of the workplace in pretty much every industry, is only a part of the equation. It's not the WHOLE THING. In my opinion, that is how it should be. In the airlines, it doesn't matter whether or not you're worth a $hit, it only matters how long you've been there.

There are A-holes in corporate, too, trust me. The difference is, thanks to there being no unions and seniority systems to fight their incompetence and save their job, they don't last long.

As far as experience meaning you are always right, there are a lot of dead bodies piled up because some senior captain thought he was right and wouldn't listen to his junior FO who was ACTUALLY right.

The Air France airplane that fell in the ocean a few years ago?
American MD80 in LIT?
Air Florida (I think it was) 737?

The list goes on and on.

I guess there is no right or wrong answer, you can find examples on either end. But I've been in both worlds, and I'm a far bigger fan of how things are done in the 91/135 world.

Have to disagree. I flew corporate prior to the airlines, and saw lots of guys that only got the job because of who they knew, and no matter how poor their performance was they were "protected".

The Air France flight actually stayed in a stall the whole way down because low time F.O. was pulling back on the stick all the way down, canceling out the captains corrective forward input.