Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Regional Airline future

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web

Kaman

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
947
However, what makes it even more crushing is the fact that it isn't really as nefarious as your post, although I feel every bit as much of the pain as you do. To Delta, it is just business and we are a node in their business model that has to be optimized for efficiency, profit and cost reduction. I would rather just have them tell me that "we hate you pitiful regional pilots, and you should consider yourself lucky to occupy the same airspace let alone breath the same air". Ironically, I used to have a lot of respect for Delta as an organization and felt that they have a very professional group of front-line employees.
Now, you all can take this with a grain of salt, but while commuting to STL for my last Q400 PC, I jumpseated on PSA and the Captain asked me about what was going on here, and after giving him a brief synopsis. He told me that earlier in the day, he had an FAA inspector riding along doing an "observation" (commute...another abuse of taxpayer funds for another rant...). This particular "fed" works in the Cincinnati FSDO which just happens to be COMAIR's certificate holding office. The long and the short is that he said COMAIR is D.I.W. ("dead in the water" to you landlubbers) and will be shutting it's doors within the next 6-12 months once Delta's pilots either ratify OR reject their TA.
If one were to make an observation based on previous history... I see a "trojan horse" coming our way in the form of the 75ish 76-seat aircraft being dangled in front of our noses as a "carrot" to being more amenable to amending our current JCBA. "Sign this or else these airplanes are going to G****s" kind of an ultimatum. And, their justification is that Delta is only going to pay this amount to fly these block hours, and there are other operators cheaper than you are...
So, perhaps I am stupid, crazy, don't know what I am talking about or all the above. This is just my observations and speculation of a scenario that could be playing out right as you are reading this.
It is becoming more and more obvious to me that the current regional airline business model is broken, and until more leverage is placed within the joint collective bargaining scheme things are going to continue in this tail chase to bottom. That is not just a metaphor any longer, it is the truth. Look at the history of how this sector of the airline business has spiraled downward since code-sharing began; pay-for job, pay for training, J4J, ASA, CPA, Flow-up/Flow-down,etc...Everyone is pinning their hopes to the date Dec. 31, 2012 when the 65-year olds at the legacies finally retire. I don't think that this is a very good idea to pin one's hopes on.
The time is finally come I believe for ALPA to do what the airlines seem to be so adept at (not always successfully) in changing their business model. ALPA isn't privy to all the company plans, or strategy nor does it have a right to be. Although, it would make sense that a successful business would enjoy a positive partnership with it's employees. If this were the case we'd never need to have a collective bargaining agent or an advocate in government. ALPA now has more pilots in the regional side of the business than it does the legacy (something about that word legacy in describing an airline kind of annoys me) pilots. We need to have a NATIONAL SENIORITY LIST NOW...This is what "collective" means if you define it, we are not acting collectively within our own union. I am not trying to sound harsh or critical of ALPA. ALPA has accomplished many things in the area of safety, regulation and pilot advocacy. However, let's call a spade a spade here...ALPA has not done so great when it comes to collective bargaining, and ESPECIALLY at the regional airline level. I think that we have good people trying to the right thing in our MECs, LECs, committees, etc...But, we are not really going to be speaking with one voice for ALL pilots until we get this national seniority list protocol worked out...It simply has to be done...
The time now is to be bold and to look back at the history of the hard work, sacrifices of the past ALPA members that brought the association thru it's genesis. They too faced daunting problems, yet they prevailed. I think that it is still possible. Pilots are leaders by default generally speaking, and also very task/goal oriented. These are positive things that we can use to gain some traction on this issue, and really make some positive change. Change is often traumatic and difficult for many to absorb, but change we must or this career, this avocation as some of us want to see it will continue to degrade.

Rant complete...

repost
 
No way on a National Seniority list with transferable seniority between companies. Nobody forces you to choose their airline. It's your choice, and choosing wrong shouldn't affect people who were lucky and chose correctly.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
No way on a National Seniority list with transferable seniority between companies. Nobody forces you to choose their airline. It's your choice, and choosing wrong shouldn't affect people who were lucky and chose correctly.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Not to be sarcastic, but that was not an astute observation on your part and merely a vain attempt at your usual sarcasm...And, if you don't see the point of my post then you are more of an idiot than you pretend to be...The current model of ALPA has NOT changed with the industry and is NOT addressing the needs of it's rank and file to the extent it should be and COULD be...
 
Not to be sarcastic, but that was not an astute observation on your part and merely a vain attempt at your usual sarcasm...And, if you don't see the point of my post then you are more of an idiot than you pretend to be...The current model of ALPA has NOT changed with the industry and is NOT addressing the needs of it's rank and file to the extent it should be and COULD be...

No, your proposal is not reasonable if it includes a National Seniority List. Make the right choice before you apply.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
Last edited:
Genital Lee, once again you show your true colors. Making the "right choice" in this business or any business for that matter is akin to winning the lottery. It is all luck. And you never know if you were lucky until you retire. For you to sit here and pat yourself on the back for "choosing correctly" is arrogant and ignorant. I hope for your sake that Delta doesn't become the next Pan Am, Braniff, Enron, Lehman Brothers, etc. Karma is a bitch.
 
I think GL is right. Nobody told me to chose Virgin. If we go out of business, I have no right to become a narrowbody captain somewhere else, or to carry my DOH from a bottom feeding airline to someplace like FedEx.

This career isn't like being an electrician. We don't all get paid around the same. Each company has very different abilities to pay their employees based on their business model and efficiency.

Since this thread is in the regional section, I also have to mention that if you are in the regional industry, you must realize that management at the majors have bought off their labor to allow your jobs to exist. They did that to do an end-run around those mainline union contracts. Mainline management is winning in this regard. And since they created thousands of low-paying jobs to replace fewer well-paying jobs, there is absolutely no way that you can integrate the high and low-paying jobs.
 
How about a national longevity list? I don't necessarily care what I'm bidding as much as I care about not going back to year-one pay if I change jobs. I would think a national longevity list is more feasible.
 
This particular "fed" works in the Cincinnati FSDO which just happens to be COMAIR's certificate holding office.

It happens not to be any such thing. The CMR certificate is held by the Louisville FSDO, but carry on.
 
A NSL is great in theory, but is simply not practical. What the General isn't figuring on, is today's "place to be" could be gone tomorrow. DAL isn't immune to this, they're just one fruit loop and a suitcase, or a bad CEO away from the likes of Pan Am, Eastern, or TWA. I hope not, but this business is so cyclical that the plain truth is that over a 30-35 year career, the odds are simply stacked against you. This is true no matter where you go.
 
It happens not to be any such thing. The CMR certificate is held by the Louisville FSDO, but carry on.

I only assumed that it was in Cincinnati, but the rest of the conversation I paraphrased was factual. Whether there is any validity, let's hope not. As far as the airline pilot profession not being similar to a trade, ok. Well, how would you define it? The current paradigm is not working, and it wasn't working in the period immediately following WWII, so ALPA CHANGED the way they dealt with the industry. We have to be prepared to change our way of thinking and how we approach this profession, because as someone said, the cards are already stacked against us. Why continue to give management a stacked deck of cards to play against us?
 
The Union has nothing to do with a "National" seniority list. That would have to come from all the airlines management. I don't see the incentive for creating one from their point of view. They would effectively be forced to lose control of who they hire or who they retain. A Delta new-hire could transfer to United. That United 747 CA could transfer to AA because he moved to Florida.

Yeah, great for us, but no friggen way would that ever work. Look at US Airways and America West. If those two can't figure it out in 7 years, imagine the lifetime it would take to get all on one list.
 
The reason it never happened is because whom ever is at the strong airline (Delta at the present time) did not want to allow the pilots from the weak (American presently) to jump over and steal their position. As soon as Delta is in the tank Delta pilots will want it and the strong carrier will not be in favor.
 
If those two can't figure it out in 7 years, imagine the lifetime it would take to get all on one list.
It actually, it was figured out, by a method both parties agreed to (binding arbitration). One group didn't like the result and ignored the law.
 
A national seniority list is a noble idea, but one that has absolutely ZERO chance of happening in real life.....EVER.

The reason why is threefold:

1. Pilots, as a whole, are notoriously selfish and greedy. There is absolutely no way you will EVER see most pilots vote on something for the greater good of the industry if it stands to jeopardize their position one iota. This simply WILL NOT HAPPEN. You want proof? Check out a few of the posts on this very thread. General Lee is one shining example of airline pilot greed. He's got his, and could give a flying rat's a$$ if you live or die.

There are many senior guys and junior guys alike that love to preach and chest thump, but when it comes time to actually DO something, like vote on a small paycut or something like that to improve the QOL of reserves, they won't do it. There are tons of handy dandy excuses like "well you should get it for nothing", or "we shouldn't have to take a pay cut for anything", or any number of other ridiculous examples. It's all bull$hit. There is one simple fact that you cannot ignore: PILOTS ARE SELFISH BY NATURE. Most of us are strong type A personalities. Basically, we're right and everybody else is wrong. Selfish by nature. I'm not preaching from a soapbox here, I'm the exact same damn way. The only difference between myself and other guys is that I don't try to lie about it.

I live on min guarantee, very well I might add. Every day at my airline I hear someone bitching about how there is no open time to pick up. I could give a crap. Learn to live with less, dude, otherwise, I'm not your fcking therapist. I don't care about your problems unless you pay me $500 bucks an hour plus the cost of whining Kleenex.

I may be selfish, but I don't give a crap. I see it every damn day, and I guess it's turned me into a misanthrope. I care about myself and my family. I love my wife and my little girl more than life itself, and there isn't a soul on this planet I wouldn't crush under the heel of my boot if it meant bettering their life. That's the truth, whether you like it or not. I would assume not, because most people prefer bull$hit validation.

2. Management will NEVER ALLOW IT. Think about this for a second: What does management have to gain from allowing a national seniority list? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. In fact, they stand to lose more than you are probably considering. Right now, thanks to the seniority system, (which, in my opinion, is the most detrimental career killing tool that management has to use against pilots), management never has to worry about losing people to the competition. EVER. Once you become invested in an airline, any airline, for a certain amount of time, it becomes a losing proposition for you to leave, no matter how many $hit sandwiches management feeds you. Hell, you have mid seniority regional captains that wouldn't go to Delta tomorrow if you offered them a job simply because the math doesn't add up. There are more variables than I can name, but in the rest of the real world, making a move like that would be an absolute no brainer! But not with the seniority system. With the seniority system, you have to start as an FO, on the bottom, in the junior base, on reserve, on first year pay no matter how qualified or how experienced you are. I could be typed in every single aircraft on Delta's certificate, with over 3,000 PIC in each type, and also have 100 moon landings and a space shuttle type, (unrealistic I know, but grant me it for the sake of the example), and I'm still dead last on the list in the right seat sitting reserve in a $hitty base for first year pay. The rest of the real world marketplace doesn't work like that, which is why there is significantly higher starting pay, better benefits, etc. for doctors, engineers, and other educated professionals similar to us. The seniority system is a KILLER. It has cost pilots so much over the years, even though most swear by it and have absolutely no clue of the reality of how much it has hurt us.

For a guy making six figures living in base getting 16-17 days a month off and 4 weeks of vacation, starting over isn't necessarily that attractive a proposition. Management knows this, and uses it to a HUGE advantage. If there were a national seniority list, American would be out of business in a year or less, because they would lose so many pilots they would NEVER be able to keep up. Management would lose the ability to impose cuts on pilots because their workforce would just give them the finger and go somewhere else. Right now, we do not have the ability to do that, which is a HUGE advantage for managment. When I flew corporate/charter. If someone started treating me like $hit, I would take my $30K type rating and tell them to bite my a$$. I'd soon have a job somewhere else, for equal or better pay and benefits. Essentially, companies are FORCED to treat people at the very least OK, because if they don't, they're shelling out $20-$40K type ratings on a regular basis, and that gets expensive. In the airlines, this is nonexistent, and it is a HUGE detremint to pilots.

3. There will never be true unity in the airline industry, much less over this issue. I wouldn't want it because of my greed, either. I'm still relatively young and can afford to make a move. If I have old guys coming in on top of the all the time, how in the hell am I supposed to ever advance my career? Screw them. I want mine.

It's harsh, but it's the truth. The truth hurts most of the time. Quite simply, you will NEVER, EVER, IN A MILLION YEARS get airline pilots together as a cohesive group that wants the best for everyone. IT'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN. Hell, look at this message board. Look at USAir/America West. Look at JetBlue. Hell, look at the Delta TA vote and the fighting over it. We can't even get pilots to agree with each other AT THE SAME AIRLINE. You really think all pilots industry wide are going to be singing kumbaya any time soon?

I didn't think so.

The truth hurts, folks, but there it is. Enjoy.
 
The inherent problem with the American pilot profession is that it has nothing to do with experience or skill. We end up with highly qualified pilots in dead-end jobs, or no job at all. Pilots at Fedex and Southwest who make the most money, but when they were hired were often the least desirable. And pilots like General Lee, who hit the lotto jackpot and flaunt it with their sense of superiority and entitlement.
 
Last edited:
A national seniority list is a noble idea, but one that has absolutely ZERO chance of happening in real life.....EVER.

The reason why is threefold:

1. Pilots, as a whole, are notoriously selfish and greedy. There is absolutely no way you will EVER see most pilots vote on something for the greater good of the industry if it stands to jeopardize their position one iota. This simply WILL NOT HAPPEN. You want proof? Check out a few of the posts on this very thread. General Lee is one shining example of airline pilot greed. He's got his, and could give a flying rat's a$$ if you live or die.

There are many senior guys and junior guys alike that love to preach and chest thump, but when it comes time to actually DO something, like vote on a small paycut or something like that to improve the QOL of reserves, they won't do it. There are tons of handy dandy excuses like "well you should get it for nothing", or "we shouldn't have to take a pay cut for anything", or any number of other ridiculous examples. It's all bull$hit. There is one simple fact that you cannot ignore: PILOTS ARE SELFISH BY NATURE. Most of us are strong type A personalities. Basically, we're right and everybody else is wrong. Selfish by nature. I'm not preaching from a soapbox here, I'm the exact same damn way. The only difference between myself and other guys is that I don't try to lie about it.

I live on min guarantee, very well I might add. Every day at my airline I hear someone bitching about how there is no open time to pick up. I could give a crap. Learn to live with less, dude, otherwise, I'm not your fcking therapist. I don't care about your problems unless you pay me $500 bucks an hour plus the cost of whining Kleenex.

I may be selfish, but I don't give a crap. I see it every damn day, and I guess it's turned me into a misanthrope. I care about myself and my family. I love my wife and my little girl more than life itself, and there isn't a soul on this planet I wouldn't crush under the heel of my boot if it meant bettering their life. That's the truth, whether you like it or not. I would assume not, because most people prefer bull$hit validation.

2. Management will NEVER ALLOW IT. Think about this for a second: What does management have to gain from allowing a national seniority list? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. In fact, they stand to lose more than you are probably considering. Right now, thanks to the seniority system, (which, in my opinion, is the most detrimental career killing tool that management has to use against pilots), management never has to worry about losing people to the competition. EVER. Once you become invested in an airline, any airline, for a certain amount of time, it becomes a losing proposition for you to leave, no matter how many $hit sandwiches management feeds you. Hell, you have mid seniority regional captains that wouldn't go to Delta tomorrow if you offered them a job simply because the math doesn't add up. There are more variables than I can name, but in the rest of the real world, making a move like that would be an absolute no brainer! But not with the seniority system. With the seniority system, you have to start as an FO, on the bottom, in the junior base, on reserve, on first year pay no matter how qualified or how experienced you are. I could be typed in every single aircraft on Delta's certificate, with over 3,000 PIC in each type, and also have 100 moon landings and a space shuttle type, (unrealistic I know, but grant me it for the sake of the example), and I'm still dead last on the list in the right seat sitting reserve in a $hitty base for first year pay. The rest of the real world marketplace doesn't work like that, which is why there is significantly higher starting pay, better benefits, etc. for doctors, engineers, and other educated professionals similar to us. The seniority system is a KILLER. It has cost pilots so much over the years, even though most swear by it and have absolutely no clue of the reality of how much it has hurt us.

For a guy making six figures living in base getting 16-17 days a month off and 4 weeks of vacation, starting over isn't necessarily that attractive a proposition. Management knows this, and uses it to a HUGE advantage. If there were a national seniority list, American would be out of business in a year or less, because they would lose so many pilots they would NEVER be able to keep up. Management would lose the ability to impose cuts on pilots because their workforce would just give them the finger and go somewhere else. Right now, we do not have the ability to do that, which is a HUGE advantage for managment. When I flew corporate/charter. If someone started treating me like $hit, I would take my $30K type rating and tell them to bite my a$$. I'd soon have a job somewhere else, for equal or better pay and benefits. Essentially, companies are FORCED to treat people at the very least OK, because if they don't, they're shelling out $20-$40K type ratings on a regular basis, and that gets expensive. In the airlines, this is nonexistent, and it is a HUGE detremint to pilots.

3. There will never be true unity in the airline industry, much less over this issue. I wouldn't want it because of my greed, either. I'm still relatively young and can afford to make a move. If I have old guys coming in on top of the all the time, how in the hell am I supposed to ever advance my career? Screw them. I want mine.

It's harsh, but it's the truth. The truth hurts most of the time. Quite simply, you will NEVER, EVER, IN A MILLION YEARS get airline pilots together as a cohesive group that wants the best for everyone. IT'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN. Hell, look at this message board. Look at USAir/America West. Look at JetBlue. Hell, look at the Delta TA vote and the fighting over it. We can't even get pilots to agree with each other AT THE SAME AIRLINE. You really think all pilots industry wide are going to be singing kumbaya any time soon?

I didn't think so.

The truth hurts, folks, but there it is. Enjoy.

Damn, I feel sexually aroused after that tirade...Good job, now go have a few adult beverages and take a nice healthy dump and you will feel better in the morning...
 
I think a national pay rate and work rules are needed more than a national seniority list. If you fly a crj-200 and have x amount of years of longevity then you make the same whether you are at Delta, Pinnacle, or Great Lakes. You will still have the issue of more senior carriers, but a lot of the problems of undercutting would be solved. Of course, all carriers would have to be unionized by the same union I guess. Oh well.
 
Yes, the seniority system is broken, and is probably the one main reason I may never leave my cushy fractional job, but a national seniority list is not the answer.

It will only really benefit those already on top (captains). Think about it, your at "x" airline, your competitor "y" is struggling (shrinking/bankrupt) so "x" moves in for the kill and starts expanding. You're an FO with "x" and now you get to upgrade or at least move to a better plane/base/schedule. Now if it was a national seniority list, movement within ranks would stall out. What would happen is that pilots from "y" would just change uniforms and work for "x". Sorry about your upgrade mr. "X" FO, better luck next time.

Our world is like a simmering pot of water, lots of movement. A single seniority list would possibly change a simmering pot to a stagnant pond. Anyone at the bottom will never get any oxygen.

Second example. Pilot "Bob" is one of those 10% of pilots who really shouldn't be in this career. AA, UA, Delta, and everyone else wouldn't even touch him. He failed test, sim rides, and didn't have the background, skill or knowledge for the job but he got a job flying cargo for a fly-by-night, duck tape operator. He happens to now be part of single seniority list. Now he wearing an AA uniform, a place that didn't want him near their planes.

Just my 2 cents.

Here's a CRAZY idea: How about you pay pilots all the same? Isn't "seat" pay the real problem with this industry? We are all professionals, all trained the same way, why the huge gap in seat pay (sometimes a 60% difference)? Why? Because the PIC signs the book and is responsible for the plane? I laugh at that. I'm a PIC too and my partner is just as responsible for that plane if something happens as I am. Equal pay is fair. Maybe even allow guys to "swap" seats day to day. Everyone can be captain trained and qualified. Sounds scary doesn't it? Captain-captain flying already occurs at some fractionals. Works fine.
 
Nah, I don't like the idea of equal seat pay and sharing. Imagine someone with 20 years experience on an airplane, having to sit right seat to a new hire. The new hire will be (or at least should be) constantly deferring to the experienced guy's judgement. So it doesn't work to give the new guy the last word in a dispute over the correct course of action, which is essentially the main role of a captain. It would be confusing and dangerous.
 
I think all CRJ's/ERJ's should pay the same with all companies. Maybe have only 5 year scale as well. If every company that flew 737's had the same pay scale then management couldn't say labor is the problem. Same retirements etc....
 

Latest resources

Back
Top