Regional Airline future

[ASApuppy]

The Union has nothing to do with a "National" seniority list. That would have to come from all the airlines management. I don't see the incentive for creating one from their point of view. They would effectively be forced to lose control of who they hire or who they retain. A Delta new-hire could transfer to United. That United 747 CA could transfer to AA because he moved to Florida.

Yeah, great for us, but no friggen way would that ever work. Look at US Airways and America West. If those two can't figure it out in 7 years, imagine the lifetime it would take to get all on one list.

 

[Twisted Mind]

The reason it never happened is because whom ever is at the strong airline (Delta at the present time) did not want to allow the pilots from the weak (American presently) to jump over and steal their position. As soon as Delta is in the tank Delta pilots will want it and the strong carrier will not be in favor.

 

[Flyer1015]

If those two can't figure it out in 7 years, imagine the lifetime it would take to get all on one list.

It actually, it was figured out, by a method both parties agreed to (binding arbitration). One group didn't like the result and ignored the law.

 

[CapnVegetto]

A national seniority list is a noble idea, but one that has absolutely ZERO chance of happening in real life.....EVER.

The reason why is threefold:

1. Pilots, as a whole, are notoriously selfish and greedy. There is absolutely no way you will EVER see most pilots vote on something for the greater good of the industry if it stands to jeopardize their position one iota. This simply WILL NOT HAPPEN. You want proof? Check out a few of the posts on this very thread. General Lee is one shining example of airline pilot greed. He's got his, and could give a flying rat's a$$ if you live or die.

There are many senior guys and junior guys alike that love to preach and chest thump, but when it comes time to actually DO something, like vote on a small paycut or something like that to improve the QOL of reserves, they won't do it. There are tons of handy dandy excuses like "well you should get it for nothing", or "we shouldn't have to take a pay cut for anything", or any number of other ridiculous examples. It's all bull$hit. There is one simple fact that you cannot ignore: PILOTS ARE SELFISH BY NATURE. Most of us are strong type A personalities. Basically, we're right and everybody else is wrong. Selfish by nature. I'm not preaching from a soapbox here, I'm the exact same damn way. The only difference between myself and other guys is that I don't try to lie about it.

I live on min guarantee, very well I might add. Every day at my airline I hear someone bitching about how there is no open time to pick up. I could give a crap. Learn to live with less, dude, otherwise, I'm not your fcking therapist. I don't care about your problems unless you pay me $500 bucks an hour plus the cost of whining Kleenex.

I may be selfish, but I don't give a crap. I see it every damn day, and I guess it's turned me into a misanthrope. I care about myself and my family. I love my wife and my little girl more than life itself, and there isn't a soul on this planet I wouldn't crush under the heel of my boot if it meant bettering their life. That's the truth, whether you like it or not. I would assume not, because most people prefer bull$hit validation.

2. Management will NEVER ALLOW IT. Think about this for a second: What does management have to gain from allowing a national seniority list? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. In fact, they stand to lose more than you are probably considering. Right now, thanks to the seniority system, (which, in my opinion, is the most detrimental career killing tool that management has to use against pilots), management never has to worry about losing people to the competition. EVER. Once you become invested in an airline, any airline, for a certain amount of time, it becomes a losing proposition for you to leave, no matter how many $hit sandwiches management feeds you. Hell, you have mid seniority regional captains that wouldn't go to Delta tomorrow if you offered them a job simply because the math doesn't add up. There are more variables than I can name, but in the rest of the real world, making a move like that would be an absolute no brainer! But not with the seniority system. With the seniority system, you have to start as an FO, on the bottom, in the junior base, on reserve, on first year pay no matter how qualified or how experienced you are. I could be typed in every single aircraft on Delta's certificate, with over 3,000 PIC in each type, and also have 100 moon landings and a space shuttle type, (unrealistic I know, but grant me it for the sake of the example), and I'm still dead last on the list in the right seat sitting reserve in a $hitty base for first year pay. The rest of the real world marketplace doesn't work like that, which is why there is significantly higher starting pay, better benefits, etc. for doctors, engineers, and other educated professionals similar to us. The seniority system is a KILLER. It has cost pilots so much over the years, even though most swear by it and have absolutely no clue of the reality of how much it has hurt us.

For a guy making six figures living in base getting 16-17 days a month off and 4 weeks of vacation, starting over isn't necessarily that attractive a proposition. Management knows this, and uses it to a HUGE advantage. If there were a national seniority list, American would be out of business in a year or less, because they would lose so many pilots they would NEVER be able to keep up. Management would lose the ability to impose cuts on pilots because their workforce would just give them the finger and go somewhere else. Right now, we do not have the ability to do that, which is a HUGE advantage for managment. When I flew corporate/charter. If someone started treating me like $hit, I would take my $30K type rating and tell them to bite my a$$. I'd soon have a job somewhere else, for equal or better pay and benefits. Essentially, companies are FORCED to treat people at the very least OK, because if they don't, they're shelling out $20-$40K type ratings on a regular basis, and that gets expensive. In the airlines, this is nonexistent, and it is a HUGE detremint to pilots.

3. There will never be true unity in the airline industry, much less over this issue. I wouldn't want it because of my greed, either. I'm still relatively young and can afford to make a move. If I have old guys coming in on top of the all the time, how in the hell am I supposed to ever advance my career? Screw them. I want mine.

It's harsh, but it's the truth. The truth hurts most of the time. Quite simply, you will NEVER, EVER, IN A MILLION YEARS get airline pilots together as a cohesive group that wants the best for everyone. IT'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN. Hell, look at this message board. Look at USAir/America West. Look at JetBlue. Hell, look at the Delta TA vote and the fighting over it. We can't even get pilots to agree with each other AT THE SAME AIRLINE. You really think all pilots industry wide are going to be singing kumbaya any time soon?

I didn't think so.

The truth hurts, folks, but there it is. Enjoy.

 

[altimaklr]

The inherent problem with the American pilot profession is that it has nothing to do with experience or skill. We end up with highly qualified pilots in dead-end jobs, or no job at all. Pilots at Fedex and Southwest who make the most money, but when they were hired were often the least desirable. And pilots like General Lee, who hit the lotto jackpot and flaunt it with their sense of superiority and entitlement.

 

[Kaman]

A national seniority list is a noble idea, but one that has absolutely ZERO chance of happening in real life.....EVER.

The reason why is threefold:

1. Pilots, as a whole, are notoriously selfish and greedy. There is absolutely no way you will EVER see most pilots vote on something for the greater good of the industry if it stands to jeopardize their position one iota. This simply WILL NOT HAPPEN. You want proof? Check out a few of the posts on this very thread. General Lee is one shining example of airline pilot greed. He's got his, and could give a flying rat's a$$ if you live or die.

There are many senior guys and junior guys alike that love to preach and chest thump, but when it comes time to actually DO something, like vote on a small paycut or something like that to improve the QOL of reserves, they won't do it. There are tons of handy dandy excuses like "well you should get it for nothing", or "we shouldn't have to take a pay cut for anything", or any number of other ridiculous examples. It's all bull$hit. There is one simple fact that you cannot ignore: PILOTS ARE SELFISH BY NATURE. Most of us are strong type A personalities. Basically, we're right and everybody else is wrong. Selfish by nature. I'm not preaching from a soapbox here, I'm the exact same damn way. The only difference between myself and other guys is that I don't try to lie about it.

I live on min guarantee, very well I might add. Every day at my airline I hear someone bitching about how there is no open time to pick up. I could give a crap. Learn to live with less, dude, otherwise, I'm not your fcking therapist. I don't care about your problems unless you pay me $500 bucks an hour plus the cost of whining Kleenex.

I may be selfish, but I don't give a crap. I see it every damn day, and I guess it's turned me into a misanthrope. I care about myself and my family. I love my wife and my little girl more than life itself, and there isn't a soul on this planet I wouldn't crush under the heel of my boot if it meant bettering their life. That's the truth, whether you like it or not. I would assume not, because most people prefer bull$hit validation.

2. Management will NEVER ALLOW IT. Think about this for a second: What does management have to gain from allowing a national seniority list? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. In fact, they stand to lose more than you are probably considering. Right now, thanks to the seniority system, (which, in my opinion, is the most detrimental career killing tool that management has to use against pilots), management never has to worry about losing people to the competition. EVER. Once you become invested in an airline, any airline, for a certain amount of time, it becomes a losing proposition for you to leave, no matter how many $hit sandwiches management feeds you. Hell, you have mid seniority regional captains that wouldn't go to Delta tomorrow if you offered them a job simply because the math doesn't add up. There are more variables than I can name, but in the rest of the real world, making a move like that would be an absolute no brainer! But not with the seniority system. With the seniority system, you have to start as an FO, on the bottom, in the junior base, on reserve, on first year pay no matter how qualified or how experienced you are. I could be typed in every single aircraft on Delta's certificate, with over 3,000 PIC in each type, and also have 100 moon landings and a space shuttle type, (unrealistic I know, but grant me it for the sake of the example), and I'm still dead last on the list in the right seat sitting reserve in a $hitty base for first year pay. The rest of the real world marketplace doesn't work like that, which is why there is significantly higher starting pay, better benefits, etc. for doctors, engineers, and other educated professionals similar to us. The seniority system is a KILLER. It has cost pilots so much over the years, even though most swear by it and have absolutely no clue of the reality of how much it has hurt us.

For a guy making six figures living in base getting 16-17 days a month off and 4 weeks of vacation, starting over isn't necessarily that attractive a proposition. Management knows this, and uses it to a HUGE advantage. If there were a national seniority list, American would be out of business in a year or less, because they would lose so many pilots they would NEVER be able to keep up. Management would lose the ability to impose cuts on pilots because their workforce would just give them the finger and go somewhere else. Right now, we do not have the ability to do that, which is a HUGE advantage for managment. When I flew corporate/charter. If someone started treating me like $hit, I would take my $30K type rating and tell them to bite my a$$. I'd soon have a job somewhere else, for equal or better pay and benefits. Essentially, companies are FORCED to treat people at the very least OK, because if they don't, they're shelling out $20-$40K type ratings on a regular basis, and that gets expensive. In the airlines, this is nonexistent, and it is a HUGE detremint to pilots.

3. There will never be true unity in the airline industry, much less over this issue. I wouldn't want it because of my greed, either. I'm still relatively young and can afford to make a move. If I have old guys coming in on top of the all the time, how in the hell am I supposed to ever advance my career? Screw them. I want mine.

It's harsh, but it's the truth. The truth hurts most of the time. Quite simply, you will NEVER, EVER, IN A MILLION YEARS get airline pilots together as a cohesive group that wants the best for everyone. IT'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN. Hell, look at this message board. Look at USAir/America West. Look at JetBlue. Hell, look at the Delta TA vote and the fighting over it. We can't even get pilots to agree with each other AT THE SAME AIRLINE. You really think all pilots industry wide are going to be singing kumbaya any time soon?

I didn't think so.

The truth hurts, folks, but there it is. Enjoy.

Damn, I feel sexually aroused after that tirade...Good job, now go have a few adult beverages and take a nice healthy dump and you will feel better in the morning...

 

[bri5150]

I think a national pay rate and work rules are needed more than a national seniority list. If you fly a crj-200 and have x amount of years of longevity then you make the same whether you are at Delta, Pinnacle, or Great Lakes. You will still have the issue of more senior carriers, but a lot of the problems of undercutting would be solved. Of course, all carriers would have to be unionized by the same union I guess. Oh well.

 

[cldsfr79]

Yes, the seniority system is broken, and is probably the one main reason I may never leave my cushy fractional job, but a national seniority list is not the answer.

It will only really benefit those already on top (captains). Think about it, your at "x" airline, your competitor "y" is struggling (shrinking/bankrupt) so "x" moves in for the kill and starts expanding. You're an FO with "x" and now you get to upgrade or at least move to a better plane/base/schedule. Now if it was a national seniority list, movement within ranks would stall out. What would happen is that pilots from "y" would just change uniforms and work for "x". Sorry about your upgrade mr. "X" FO, better luck next time.

Our world is like a simmering pot of water, lots of movement. A single seniority list would possibly change a simmering pot to a stagnant pond. Anyone at the bottom will never get any oxygen.

Second example. Pilot "Bob" is one of those 10% of pilots who really shouldn't be in this career. AA, UA, Delta, and everyone else wouldn't even touch him. He failed test, sim rides, and didn't have the background, skill or knowledge for the job but he got a job flying cargo for a fly-by-night, duck tape operator. He happens to now be part of single seniority list. Now he wearing an AA uniform, a place that didn't want him near their planes.

Just my 2 cents.

Here's a CRAZY idea: How about you pay pilots all the same? Isn't "seat" pay the real problem with this industry? We are all professionals, all trained the same way, why the huge gap in seat pay (sometimes a 60% difference)? Why? Because the PIC signs the book and is responsible for the plane? I laugh at that. I'm a PIC too and my partner is just as responsible for that plane if something happens as I am. Equal pay is fair. Maybe even allow guys to "swap" seats day to day. Everyone can be captain trained and qualified. Sounds scary doesn't it? Captain-captain flying already occurs at some fractionals. Works fine.

 

[JustaNumber]

Nah, I don't like the idea of equal seat pay and sharing. Imagine someone with 20 years experience on an airplane, having to sit right seat to a new hire. The new hire will be (or at least should be) constantly deferring to the experienced guy's judgement. So it doesn't work to give the new guy the last word in a dispute over the correct course of action, which is essentially the main role of a captain. It would be confusing and dangerous.

 

[ex j-41]

I think all CRJ's/ERJ's should pay the same with all companies. Maybe have only 5 year scale as well. If every company that flew 737's had the same pay scale then management couldn't say labor is the problem. Same retirements etc....